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Post by enigma on May 15, 2015 14:14:45 GMT -5
And when you have realized the futility of all that and you are still seeking, still suffering, what do you do then. go to the pub lol Now there's an escape plan. Hehe |
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Post by enigma on May 15, 2015 14:20:34 GMT -5
haha okay cool. So there's a bit of a paradox here in that certain crappy things have to be done in order to realize that nothing can be done! Impersonal order maintain that crappy thing from my experience, my journey starts from using Law of attraction, I was surprised when I hear about Law of attraction, when I result I got astonished. When I see how universe moves, my belief of freewill went for a toss. Even after seeing those great movement I still believed that freewill was true,I thought Since those people are not using Law of attraction, they could manifest anything and they are working for me, but when I came to know the truth that intention to manifest something is also manifestation, it become blatantly clear that freewill is pure illusion. Order is always there within the crappy things. Yes, I used to tell LOA peeps that manifestation is always happening, and that they are already manifesting the thing they want to use manifestation to change, which makes it another split mind practice. |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2015 14:35:50 GMT -5
he he  he never read what I say and start to advise. that's the only problem with him, I am pointing it very clearly that everything is appearance so nothing can be known beyond that, but don't even consider what I am saying, but he starts to advice me, You see, I am finding very interesting to discuss with certain people here for an example, Enigma,you,Laughter,pilgrims because that interest me a lot, the main reason is, first of all you people listen me what I say and if you accept you would accept, If not , you would reject, I like this way of going, but he never listen what I speak, he directly jump for advising. With Zendancer if you ask me what is the disagreement, I would say I never believe the practices, he always suggest practices. Practices are mind games for me. From my perspective, ZD is not as interested in satisfying the desire for discussion as he is in pointing peeps in the direction of freedom, and so he's wanting you to abandon your questions and logical analysis and simply look at what is being pointed to. So it's not that he doesn't listen to you, but that he doesn't see it to be in your best interest for him to follow you down the intellectual wabbit hole. (Hopefully ZD will correct any mischaracterization of his intentions) I, in fact, align with those intentions generally, though I see that you are not interested in looking, and in fact believe that you have already found what he is pointing to, so that approach may be more fruitless than usual. I'm willing to follow you down the bunny hole just so far, and when it starts to get really dark, I have to leave you and make my way back to the surface. That's why you don't hear me answering anymore. You conclude that I have no answer and have hung my head in shameful retreat, which is fine.I did not conclude that you have no answer, I have been following you so far very sincerely, Amn't I? Don't you feel the sincerity in my talk? but the day you talk about outer world stability I lost all trust on you. I understand that you would freely believe whatever you believe, you would freely choose whatever you would like to choose. |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2015 14:39:04 GMT -5
Impersonal order maintain that crappy thing from my experience, my journey starts from using Law of attraction, I was surprised when I hear about Law of attraction, when I result I got astonished. When I see how universe moves, my belief of freewill went for a toss. Even after seeing those great movement I still believed that freewill was true,I thought Since those people are not using Law of attraction, they could manifest anything and they are working for me, but when I came to know the truth that intention to manifest something is also manifestation, it become blatantly clear that freewill is pure illusion. Order is always there within the crappy things. Yes, I used to tell LOA peeps that manifestation is always happening, and that they are already manifesting the thing they want to use manifestation to change, which makes it another split mind practice. But one manifestation is the indication to the another manifestation, one manifestation says you direction universe moves, but I know unfortunately these preexisting flow concept or predetermination doesn't make any sense to you. But that's ok for me now, I am no longer going to convince you anything because I know your stubborn mind. |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2015 15:05:36 GMT -5
Some body strategies could be said to be predetermined in the sense that when an itch arises the movement is to scratch it. The pressure to go pee arises and the movement is to relieve it. The same is true for unhappiness and irritation, the movement is to address these sensations/feelings, what differs from individual to individual is how they are addressed. Some lash out, some just 'be' with it, some go eat some food...it varies. There's no freedom from certain body programs, but it is possible to intelligently and harmoniously function, or 'work with' these body programs. It was predetermined that you would write this post.  |
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Post by enigma on May 15, 2015 15:32:20 GMT -5
What you're interested in discussing doesn't interest me. Is that hard to understand? FWIW, I spent twenty years thinking about reality and never found a single answer to any of my dozens of existential questions. After I started shifting attention AWAY from thoughts, answers began to appear. Eventually I found the answers to all of my questions, and the search for understanding came to an end. Considering my past experience with thinking ABOUT "what is" versus attending "what is," can you understand why I point people toward attending and AWAY than thinking? I understand I understand I understand I told you many times, but you are not hearing me, But I said you why I find a fault in your method, it's not a conceptual knowledge of mine, I did all these crappy thing of focusing on the present movement after reading Tolle's book, I thought all my suffering would go away if I focus my attention in the present movement but what I noticed was, mind exactly knows to break this state of present movement focus, it would surely so strongly suggest so that we would give up the focus. But I am sure you are going to hear from me even this time. Let me ask you a question, Aren't you still performing this present movement focus to attain some answers? You aren't listening. He's told you repeatedly his questions have all been answered. |
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Post by enigma on May 15, 2015 15:43:44 GMT -5
So if someone tells you they are suffering you would say the universe is unfolding perfectly? someone in my world can't suffer, if they suffer then they are my own creation. Sounds like peeps need to hang around you and be really nice to you.  |
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Post by zendancer on May 15, 2015 15:45:18 GMT -5
he he he never read what I say and start to advise. that's the only problem with him, I am pointing it very clearly that everything is appearance so nothing can be known beyond that, but don't even consider what I am saying, but he starts to advice me, You see, I am finding very interesting to discuss with certain people here for an example, Enigma,you,Laughter,pilgrims because that interest me a lot, the main reason is, first of all you people listen me what I say and if you accept you would accept, If not , you would reject, I like this way of going, but he never listen what I speak, he directly jump for advising. With Zendancer if you ask me what is the disagreement, I would say I never believe the practices, he always suggest practices. Practices are mind games for me. From my perspective, ZD is not as interested in satisfying the desire for discussion as he is in pointing peeps in the direction of freedom, and so he's wanting you to abandon your questions and logical analysis and simply look at what is being pointed to. So it's not that he doesn't listen to you, but that he doesn't see it to be in your best interest for him to follow you down the intellectual wabbit hole. (Hopefully ZD will correct any mischaracterization of his intentions) I, in fact, align with those intentions generally, though I see that you are not interested in looking, and in fact believe that you have already found what he is pointing to, so that approach may be more fruitless than usual. I'm willing to follow you down the bunny hole just so far, and when it starts to get really dark, I have to leave you and make my way back to the surface. That's why you don't hear me answering anymore. You conclude that I have no answer and have hung my head in shameful retreat, which is fine. Extremely well stated! *bows in admiration* |
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Post by zendancer on May 15, 2015 15:47:05 GMT -5
Now there's an escape plan. Hehe I'll drink to that! |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2015 15:55:45 GMT -5
Yep, that makes sense to me too. I will say though, that if we're basically okay with the remnants of ego that play themselves out, that extra strategy becomes null and void. Any strategy the mind conceives of has been predetermined. So the only way to be free of this is to go to that which is prior to mind which cannot be predetermined because it is outside the field of causality. Only the relative can be subject to predetermination. This is how genius is born, daily. |
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Post by enigma on May 15, 2015 17:41:34 GMT -5
OK, so "we can bend probable line of the universe as our wish" merely means that God bends our wish, and it merely seems that "we can bend probable line of the universe as our wish".OK, that actually makes sense (from inside your view). ....but of course I look forward to your answers to my other points. Yes yes you correctly understood. We can bend the probable line of the universe, but that is what predetermined to happened, because when I try to manifest something, manifestation towards the desired result was started even before intention to manifest comes to my mind. Which tells me that the "probable line of the universe" (which I interpret as, 'What's already in motion') is what you're manifesting, so nothing is being bent. |
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Post by enigma on May 15, 2015 17:46:02 GMT -5
Gopal says that if one decides to meditate that state CAN be broken. He is correct, but he doesn't seem to understand that the state MAY NOT get broken. If everything is a movement in consciousness (his view), and everything is predetermined, then it is impossible to say with certainty what will happen next. The one who meditates may continue to meditate or not, and may have realizations or not, and may have CC experiences or not, and may discover what's going on or not. Clarity changes the function of mind, realizing happy and unhappy would lead us not to jump out of either of that state, but this too has been predetermined. Predetermination doesn't changes anything from your level. The only problem is nothing is predetermined. It makes a difference whether one envisions a spontaneous unfolding, which is infinitely malleable, or a plan laid out fully at the beginning, which is how I interpret predetermined. |
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Post by enigma on May 15, 2015 17:52:17 GMT -5
Co.ckpit, for those who don't know what a penispit is. We could say the universe is aware, and thinking only through the individuation. My point to Tzu being that this unique presence has not been created to be independent so as to provide for authenticity in the expression, as the essence from which it is created has no preferences, no thoughts or feelings that might counter that authenticity. This is what the individual expression is for, and it cannot help but be authentic. This expression is not separate from that which is expressing, and so it's not that the individuals are on autopilot, but rather they move as one by default and therefore have no need of guidance. Perfection is a problematic term, and yet it applies here. As long as we think of ourselves as passengers, the absence of the pilot makes us uneasy, and if we think of ourselves as the pilot, then eventually -- unless we're really fortunate -- we either get white knuckles or fall asleep at the stick. Perfection doesn't mean no turbulence or 100% on-time performance, and there's always some dooood with a peanut allergy in coach that cancels the snack. What it does mean is that you're never on the wrong flight. And sometimes you're heading for Cleveland, and there's just nothing you can do about it.  |
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Post by enigma on May 15, 2015 18:31:36 GMT -5
What gopal is saying is that he found that when one "meditates", has "present mind focus", mind will always find a way to break the focus, IOW, mind will start thinking again. No no, I am not talking about meditation as the present movement focus, ofcourse that too present movement focus, but I was not talking about that attending the actual, What I said by the word 'present movement focus' is attending the actual, focusing on the outer world by eliminating thoughts which pop up in our mind. I started this practise after reading Tolle's book of power of now, You can't carry this present movement focus for a long time, sooner mind would suggest you to drag back, and I am pretty sure it ultimately succeed. It's exactly know how to break that state and bring back to the normal thinking mode. The time you start to attend the actual decides the time which you ends the focus as well. Just to expand on that, mind is always in control during the practice, and is careful to not see anything it doesn't want to see. Mind has some sort of agenda for wanting to do the practice, and it has nothing to do with anything that might compromise mind/body identity or leave mind in a position of less apparent control. Usually, it's about attaining a more relaxed state from which mind can launch it's future plans. To be fully present is to be without ego, as ego is in the thoughts only, and so mind rarely allows that to happen, and is prepared to end the meditation if things get too risky. Generally, this whole process is unconscious, and the meditator (mind) is convinced he did his best to be present and see through the illusion. It is, of course, a split mind process. There is the hope, however, that mind may miscalculate or relax it's guard too much. These are very auspicious moments. |
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Post by enigma on May 15, 2015 18:36:55 GMT -5
Meditation to me means transcending thought. What do you achieve by concentrating on external phenomena. (Outer world) Have you read the book named 'power of now' by Tolle? he says that we could escape the suffering by concentrating on the present movement, But what I realized was, that's also another mind fantasy because it's exactly know where to end. The practice of being present is generally considered a meditation. I wouldn't get too hung up on the word. |
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he never read what I say and start to advise. that's the only problem with him, I am pointing it very clearly that everything is appearance so nothing can be known beyond that, but don't even consider what I am saying, but he starts to advice me, You see, I am finding very interesting to discuss with certain people here for an example, Enigma,you,Laughter,pilgrims because that interest me a lot, the main reason is, first of all you people listen me what I say and if you accept you would accept, If not , you would reject, I like this way of going, but he never listen what I speak, he directly jump for advising. With Zendancer if you ask me what is the disagreement, I would say I never believe the practices, he always suggest practices. Practices are mind games for me. 
