I'm going to do this one more time, give my context. (No ZD, I haven't changed. New to satchitananda, thanks for your kind words concerning my earlier post, but it smoothed off all the rough corners).
I'll start with a quote I put on the practice thread last night. On the back cover of the new book by Peter Ralston, Pursuing Consciousness, The Book of Enlightenment and Transformation. "Ralston....shows that enlightenment does
not transform the self, and transforming the self does
not produce enlightenment. Once we grasp that these two pursuits take place in entirely different domains of consciousness, we can use each to empower the other".
I'm not going to try to 'diagram' Roy's experience. The following is how my tradition gives a broader context. The higher exists, there is a ground of being, whatever it is (for the purposes of discussion, call it world 1). 'We' exist, in some manner, obviously. What is our relationship to the higher? For purposes of discussion, let's take three worlds, our world (for the purposes of discussion, world 3), the higher world (world 1), and a world that links them (for the purposes of discussion, world 2). For an ordinary person, there is no obvious link to the higher, because we have all types from 'atheists' to 'believers'. Why? Each world is in a very real sense, self-contained. This is because of the quantum nature of reality and the principle of discontinuity. There is a discontinuity between each world. Each world can be treated as an infinity, "zero-infinity". A picture of this is given by quantum theory with the famous term, quantum leap. For example, when an electron changes and moves from a lower orbit to a higher orbit, it absorbs a photon and leaps to the higher orbit, instantaneously without traversing either time or space. Likewise, movement from one world to a higher world is instantaneous, without traversing either time or space. In the New Testament this is referred to as "in the twinkling of an eye".
So how does one link the lower and the higher. The link has to be, figuratively, forged. Metaphorically, we could say a cup has to be forged, a cup which can receive the higher. (This comes from the Grail legends, but it is apt). The decent of the higher is known by many names, many used here, CC for example, another being grace. There is a zen story of the student sitting in meditation. ZM asks what he is doing. Disciple says, I'm meditating so as to become enlightened. So ZM picks up two bricks and begins rubbing them together. Student asks, what are you doing Master? ZM says, I'm rubbing these two bricks together to make a mirror. Student exclaims, Master, never will you make a mirror in such a manner, never. And ZM says, likewise, never will you reach enlightenment through meditation.
This is what ZD says, what E says, you will never reach the higher through anything the lower does. But likewise, they say they don't say to do nothing. I'm sure the ZM was not telling the student to quit meditating. But E says the purpose of practice is to show oneself that practice gets nowhere. I think ZD says something similar, maybe not precisely the same.
But here is where we depart. I consider that interior "spiritual" practice has a very significant purpose, even though it doesn't
directly lead to the higher. So for me, this is why what Roy had to say is of extreme value, his practice thread. In the individuation, what ZD and E says doesn't actually exist but is merely an appearance in non-separation, is ~self~, there is a potential
that does not now exist. I say self is not merely an appearance in non-duality, but is real in a real sense, and has purpose. This
potential is what links the lower to the higher, but there isn't a link unless the potential is actualized. Now, exteriorly, this middle world exists (but invisibly in a higher dimension), it links the lower world with the higher world, one could say it is the river of life that flows from the ground of being to our world.
So what does interior spiritual practice do? It forges the cup which
can receive and
touch the higher influences of world 1. So, the "cup" results from practice, corresponds, in ourselves, to world 2, so links world 3 ("us") with world 1. So, on its on, no individuated "person" can reach the higher (world 1). [This can happen, but for it to happen, the "person" doesn't 'enter' world 1, consciously (this would be CC "experience")...but the point is that it
merely happens. Forging the cup is in a real sense, taking
merely happening out of the equation, and, allowing entering, consciously. The "cup" is a real 'invitation', in a manner of speaking].
Now, I'm not going to argue this view, I'm just sharing. It gives a different context than "hardcore" non-duality. Hardcore non-duality would say that world 3 is the whole. How would one know any different, as world 3 is in a very real sense a self-contained zero-infinity world. FAPP it is the whole. But
it isn't the Whole. But this is likewise why I say I never deny anyone's personal experience or non-experience or realizations. In this post I am giving a different context
for them.
And this is really just a simplified version. We are all somewhere on a continuum. Arguing who's above who or who's below who really achieves nothing. I'm just presenting this as a thought to consider that some (any) one might 'think' they are "experiencing" the whole, when they are really only experiencing 'one world' and are actually
stuck really 'believing' there is no 'place'
else to go, when there
is. There
is always "further". In the vastness,
there are unknown unknowns.
Last
edit: The Whole of reality is like a set of Russian dolls, is holographic in nature. It appears the doll is the whole, but you open it, and there is a doll inside. And it looks like
that doll is the whole, but you open it and there is another doll inside it. And
it appears to be the whole. Now one could just stop there and 'play' with that doll, and think it's the whole, but if
you were to open it, there is
another doll inside, and
it looks like the doll it
was in. There is
always further, unknown unknowns in the vastness......