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Post by zin on Feb 11, 2015 7:24:40 GMT -5
Is the 'seeing through' you mention, a one time thing? Curious. I mean, one can try (the 'being present' for some time) and see it but do you think habits of mind fall away immediately by seeing? You may be writing these for a long time but I don't know, really. Hi zindarud, good question. I think an illusion is only an illusion after it has been transcended or seen through. If I am experiencing it, then why would I call it an illusion? To me it has a relative reality. It's not ultimately real, but it is relatively real. I see it as having a workable reality, or tentative reality. To me the real binder is my feelings that something is real and not just the thoughts that it is, or isn't. Hi source, yes, "workable reality" expression is meaningful to me. I find something 'sensible' with my mind/ affirm it with my words, feel affinity with it, begin to reflect that understanding in my acts... I understand that seeing through doesn't take time but a change in my way of living takes time in my case, it goes through mind-feelings-acts (or in some other order  ). Or maybe there are degrees in seeing through that affect its 'effectiveness'. |
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Post by zin on Feb 11, 2015 7:50:53 GMT -5
Noticing of the inception... is a bit late point for me but I understand the value of not perpetuating the thing with thoughts. I just wish that that kind of worry does not happen at all! Yes, an overall attitude of seeing ourselves in people helps to begin (the day) in a more relaxed way. But for me it more feels like an energy event. Maybe the amount of energy or a change in the type of energy, I don't know the exact 'problem'. But again, I don't wish to mix things here, don't wish go further away from the OP. "The more they see of themselves in me": Actually this can be a reminder for me -- if I happen to remember Because when I look back now, I can see that that kind of thing happens more frequently than I notice at the time. Like, people who were more experienced than me behaved in a kind of protective way, for example in work environments.. Thanks. I wonder if you could just accept that the worry has a legitimate basis for now, and consider if the solution (worry, thinking, analysis, projection of scenarios) is really the most effective way to deal with problems. OK, there is a legitimate worry about safety.. My worry is related to a quite large part of my own being (if you don't mind talking in 'parts') because safety is an important issue. And my mind is only a small part of my being, so it is insufficient for dealing with the situation, whereas presence is about the whole of my being (and sufficient). I know I talk about myself/my being here, instead of talking about some outside thing threatening my security (because I need to talk about worries, sorry!) but the result is the same I guess.. Yes I understand the issue. I am just stuck at the problem about habits.. not to lenghten the talk, though. Thanks. |
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Post by zin on Feb 11, 2015 8:01:21 GMT -5
Is the 'seeing through' you mention, a one time thing? Curious. I mean, one can try (the 'being present' for some time) and see it but do you think habits of mind fall away immediately by seeing? You may be writing these for a long time but I don't know, really. Yes. My thing is that clarity brings about changes in the conditioning, and this is the only way anything ever changes. Experimenting with remaining present and noticing that the correct thoughts arise when they are needed is useful, but ultimately there needs to be a realization that mind is not what takes care of the body-mind. I am ignorant about realizations. Do experiments help them happen? I think generally a concept of 'accident-proneness' is used here in this forum. I mean, are you advising anything about it? I think a bit differently from you, but that's a beautiful view, thank you for explaining. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 11, 2015 10:47:17 GMT -5
I wonder if you could just accept that the worry has a legitimate basis for now, and consider if the solution (worry, thinking, analysis, projection of scenarios) is really the most effective way to deal with problems. OK, there is a legitimate worry about safety.. My worry is related to a quite large part of my own being (if you don't mind talking in 'parts') because safety is an important issue. And my mind is only a small part of my being, so it is insufficient for dealing with the situation, whereas presence is about the whole of my being (and sufficient). I know I talk about myself/my being here, instead of talking about some outside thing threatening my security (because I need to talk about worries, sorry!) but the result is the same I guess.. Yes I understand the issue. I am just stuck at the problem about habits.. not to lenghten the talk, though. Thanks. I'm not sure I know what you mean. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 11, 2015 11:31:16 GMT -5
Yes. My thing is that clarity brings about changes in the conditioning, and this is the only way anything ever changes. Experimenting with remaining present and noticing that the correct thoughts arise when they are needed is useful, but ultimately there needs to be a realization that mind is not what takes care of the body-mind. I think a bit differently from you, but that's a beautiful view, thank you for explaining. The truth is that the mind/body is safer when you are fully present in an expanded state of awareness than when you are in a contracted state of thinking, and so it makes sense that paying attention to how that works will show you the truth of it, right? You may already experience evidence of that truth without being in a constant state of expanded awareness, and not have noticed it because mind isn't interested in noticing it isn't in control. I'm suggesting noticing it. I don't know what that evidence might be for you, but have you ever 'programmed' yourself to wake up at a certain time, or had a solution to a problem suddenly come out of nowhere when you weren't thinking about it? Have you wondered how your body functions without you even knowing what it's doing or how it's doing it? Have you ever had the experience of someone throwing an object at your head and you spontaneously blocked it before your mind even understood what was happening? Have you ever followed your intuition and found it to be valid? Watch the animals of the forest, who are always present, and see how they are guided, cared for, fed and protected. All of nature, including humans, is a singular, integrated movement. That's what it means to say every hair is counted. Be a scientist with it, and be radically honest with yourself. (That's where most falter) Mind will try to explain it all away. |
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Post by andrew on Feb 11, 2015 12:19:06 GMT -5
Watch the animals of the forest, who are always present, and see how they are guided, cared for, fed and protected. All of nature, including humans, is a singular, integrated movement. That's what it means to say every hair is counted. Be a scientist with it, and be radically honest with yourself. (That's where most falter) Mind will try to explain it all away.I know what you are getting at by 'singular integrated movement', but I can't help but think you might benefit from taking a break from the Disneyland forest, and going to a real forest! |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 11, 2015 12:45:52 GMT -5
andrew said: I know what you are getting at by 'singular integrated movement', but I can't help but think you might benefit from taking a break from the Disneyland forest, and going to a real forest! sdp said: No....!...!...!....... you don't mean where one animal eats another in a long food chain.........  And, the attributions got mixed up in the post above, E top, Andrew below. . |
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Post by laughter on Feb 11, 2015 14:16:31 GMT -5
In my experience, generally speaking, there's nothing more likely than a social interaction -- even with a random stranger -- to stoke-up the defense mechanisms of mind. Any thought past the noticing of the inception of the strategy formation is an opportunity for a sort of on-the-spot dynamic self-inquiry. What is it that's coping? Noticing of the inception... is a bit late point for me but I understand the value of not perpetuating the thing with thoughts. I just wish that that kind of worry does not happen at all! Yes, an overall attitude of seeing ourselves in people helps to begin (the day) in a more relaxed way. But for me it more feels like an energy event. Maybe the amount of energy or a change in the type of energy, I don't know the exact 'problem'. But again, I don't wish to mix things here, don't wish go further away from the OP. "The more they see of themselves in me": Actually this can be a reminder for me -- if I happen to remember Because when I look back now, I can see that that kind of thing happens more frequently than I notice at the time. Like, people who were more experienced than me behaved in a kind of protective way, for example in work environments.. Thanks. The defense mechanisms have been a long long time in the making, but every time we're conscious of them as they arise and play out, we have the opportunity to notice what it is that they are defending. Our orientation toward what is noticed is informed by our sense of scale and scope of the world and ourselves relative to it. |
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Post by laughter on Feb 11, 2015 14:20:10 GMT -5
In my experience, generally speaking, there's nothing more likely than a social interaction -- even with a random stranger -- to stoke-up the defense mechanisms of mind. Any thought past the noticing of the inception of the strategy formation is an opportunity for a sort of on-the-spot dynamic self-inquiry. What is it that's coping? The coping itself isn't some sort of problem, but the less we see other people as problems or as means to an end, then the more of ourselves we see in them. What I've also noticed is that this tends to work in reverse as well -- the more they see of themselves in me. Most of that effect can be accounted for by the simplicity of the golden rule, but what's really going on isn't subject to apprehension by any such concept. That seeing ourselves in others is another way to state what the now is, so, why not always? Oh, you mean 'Do harm to others as they do harm to you'?   |
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Post by laughter on Feb 11, 2015 14:26:36 GMT -5
The difficulty is that peeps still believe the protector is necessary, even though they've done all the right meditations, perhaps for years. The practice of being present never turns into the established mode of 'being present' because this belief has not been seen through. Clarity, in the form of detached objectivity, has the limit that the observer remains unobserved.  Of course, it's not possible to observe what is not subject to objectification, so the one that would observe is left, if they ever find that place of clarity, at an unmarked remote crossroads with no vehicle. |
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Post by laughter on Feb 11, 2015 14:34:40 GMT -5
I wonder if you could just accept that the worry has a legitimate basis for now, and consider if the solution (worry, thinking, analysis, projection of scenarios) is really the most effective way to deal with problems. OK, there is a legitimate worry about safety.. My worry is related to a quite large part of my own being (if you don't mind talking in 'parts') because safety is an important issue. And my mind is only a small part of my being, so it is insufficient for dealing with the situation, whereas presence is about the whole of my being (and sufficient). I know I talk about myself/my being here, instead of talking about some outside thing threatening my security (because I need to talk about worries, sorry!) but the result is the same I guess.. Yes I understand the issue. I am just stuck at the problem about habits.. not to lenghten the talk, though. Thanks. Have you read Tolle's "The Power of Now?" -- I ask this because you mentioned watching his videos. In it he acknowledges the value of mind and thought as tools. Life brings with it a score of legitimate concerns -- especially for a parent! -- and sometiems thinking these through, making plans and using the mind to find solutions to the problems associated with the concerns is a great use of that tool. What is counter-intuitive, but can be discovered by subjective investigation, is that the defense mechanisms in many circumstances hinder the function of that tool. |
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Post by amit on Feb 11, 2015 14:36:07 GMT -5
Are you saying that thinking is a disqualification from being in The Now? Is there anything but The Now in your view? amit Are you saying that it is your experience that amit always exists in the present moment? (edit) amit, I didn't want to go into this question at the time of writing this post. I just looked at the video of Scott Kiloby on the Spiritual Teachers section. I explored this question, there. (For a fuller explanation you can go there). Briefly, "Is there anything but The Now in your view"? Yes, the brain. (I already answered the first question). Hi S, "Are you saying that it is your experience that amit always exists in the present moment?" For me it resonates that there is ONLY the present moment. My experience of whatever I am experiencing appears to happen in the present moment including experiencing the memory of yesterdays events or the thinking about tomorrow. If its different than that for you, how is it different? O.k so your saying its possible to not be in The Now and that for you the brain is not in the now. Where is it then? amit |
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Post by amit on Feb 11, 2015 15:04:45 GMT -5
Is one disqualified from being in The Now by thinking, including thinking about the past or future, even though there seems to be nowhere else for that thinking to take place other than in The Now! amit Yes. Not thinking of past and future is what it means to be present. In your opinion for you maybe but not for me. amit |
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Post by earnest on Feb 11, 2015 15:34:40 GMT -5
I can't find anything outside of what's happening now.
Thinking about yesterday or tomorrow is still happening now.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 11, 2015 15:52:03 GMT -5
Are you saying that it is your experience that amit always exists in the present moment? (edit) amit, I didn't want to go into this question at the time of writing this post. I just looked at the video of Scott Kiloby on the Spiritual Teachers section. I explored this question, there. (For a fuller explanation you can go there). Briefly, "Is there anything but The Now in your view"? Yes, the brain. (I already answered the first question). Hi S, "Are you saying that it is your experience that amit always exists in the present moment?" For me it resonates that there is ONLY the present moment. My experience of whatever I am experiencing appears to happen in the present moment including experiencing the memory of yesterdays events or the thinking about tomorrow. If its different than that for you, how is it different? O.k so your saying its possible to not be in The Now and that for you the brain is not in the now. Where is it then? amit Hey amit, I was trying to point to your subjective experience. If what you say is actual and not merely conceptually obvious, then I think you must be enlightened. Yesterday I was watching a movie. Husband and wife are in the kitchen and something said gets wife into that interior far-away look in the eyes.....for a few seconds. When she >comes back< husband asks, Where did you go just now? Of course wife doesn't answer because it's a private moment of an old boyfriend or some such (I don't remember what she was daydreaming about). Now, of course all that happened in the present, but in a very real sense it wasn't in the present, it was in her memory (necessarily defined as something that happened originally in the past). But I'll leave it for you to sort out what's what (if you always live in the present moment, or not). |
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). Or maybe there are degrees in seeing through that affect its 'effectiveness'. 
