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Post by justlikeyou on Dec 19, 2014 18:41:00 GMT -5
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 19, 2014 19:40:22 GMT -5
I watched the video, very cool. If you understand what Mooji is pointing to, is discussing, describing, very cool. If you have never experienced what he is discussing, I'd say watch it again, and again.
He reads a letter of an experience some guy had and has written to Mooji about. He reads it and discusses it line by line.
At the end he discusses effortlessness. The guy was in this state for only a few seconds, and while he was there, it was effortless. And it was very significant or he wouldn't have written Mooji about it (but part of the letter he is questioning what happened, this is where the title of the thread comes from).
I'm right there with everything Mooji says, until the end. He talks about effortlessness. He seems to indicate that there isn't a way to get to this state. I disagree. And that's why I disagree with E over and over concerning volition. If there is no volition, then you just have to wait for the described state to merely happen. And you can wait and wait and wait for months and years.
Now, I consider what's described here as the same or very similar to E's sitting on the riverbank watching. I don't understand why E calls this effortlessness. Sure, when you are in the state, effortless. But if non-volition means that there is nothing anyone can do to get to the state, I vehemently disagree.
But watch and enjoy, listen to the words.......you...can.... arrive at this state.......right now, tonight.
........And then you have to decide, or can decide, which is better, my ordinary state, or the described state?
Anybody can get this........and it's possible to get back there..........
This is what meditation is all about.......meditation by any other name..........
If you think you are doing this or have done it, or have had it happen, and it's not significant, you're not there yet........
I think to get here, this is the MT of zd's ATA-MT ...........maybe something a little more........
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Post by runstill on Dec 19, 2014 20:09:23 GMT -5
I watched the video, very cool. If you understand what Mooji is pointing to, is discussing, describing, very cool. If you have never experienced what he is discussing, I'd say watch it again, and again. He reads a letter of an experience some guy had and has written to Mooji about. He reads it and discusses it line by line. At the end he discusses effortlessness. The guy was in this state for only a few seconds, and while he was there, it was effortless. And it was very significant or he wouldn't have written Mooji about it (but part of the letter he is questioning what happened, this is where the title of the thread comes from). I'm right there with everything Mooji says, until the end. He talks about effortlessness. He seems to indicate that there isn't a way to get to this state. I disagree. And that's why I disagree with E over and over concerning volition. If there is no volition, then you just have to wait for the described state to merely happen. And you can wait and wait and wait for months and years. Now, I consider what's described here as the same or very similar to E's sitting on the riverbank watching. I don't understand why E calls this effortlessness. Sure, when you are in the state, effortless. But if non-volition means that there is nothing anyone can do to get to the state, I vehemently disagree. But watch and enjoy, listen to the words.......you...can.... arrive at this state.......right now, tonight. ........And then you have to decide, or can decide, which is better, my ordinary state, or the described state? Anybody can get this........and it's possible to get back there.......... This is what meditation is all about.......meditation by any other name.......... If you think you are doing this or have done it, or have had it happen, and it's not significant, you're not there yet........ I think to get here, this is the MT of zd's ATA-MT ...........maybe something a little more........ Always good to read a post with great passion....
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Post by laughter on Dec 19, 2014 20:38:47 GMT -5
I watched the video, very cool. If you understand what Mooji is pointing to, is discussing, describing, very cool. If you have never experienced what he is discussing, I'd say watch it again, and again. He reads a letter of an experience some guy had and has written to Mooji about. He reads it and discusses it line by line. At the end he discusses effortlessness. The guy was in this state for only a few seconds, and while he was there, it was effortless. And it was very significant or he wouldn't have written Mooji about it (but part of the letter he is questioning what happened, this is where the title of the thread comes from). I'm right there with everything Mooji says, until the end. He talks about effortlessness. He seems to indicate that there isn't a way to get to this state. I disagree. And that's why I disagree with E over and over concerning volition. If there is no volition, then you just have to wait for the described state to merely happen. And you can wait and wait and wait for months and years. Now, I consider what's described here as the same or very similar to E's sitting on the riverbank watching. I don't understand why E calls this effortlessness. Sure, when you are in the state, effortless. But if non-volition means that there is nothing anyone can do to get to the state, I vehemently disagree. But watch and enjoy, listen to the words.......you...can.... arrive at this state.......right now, tonight. ........And then you have to decide, or can decide, which is better, my ordinary state, or the described state? Anybody can get this........and it's possible to get back there.......... This is what meditation is all about.......meditation by any other name.......... If you think you are doing this or have done it, or have had it happen, and it's not significant, you're not there yet........ I think to get here, this is the MT of zd's ATA-MT ...........maybe something a little more........ Obviously watching the thinker is something that someone can be advised to do, and then they can go do it. They can also inquire as to what's watching. Both can be quite transformative. The question of what gets transformed, and how, is something that everyone has to find out for themselves. Meditation can appear to result in lots of different effects, and erosion of what you call the cultural self certainly has some value.
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Post by justlikeyou on Dec 19, 2014 20:51:45 GMT -5
I watched the video, very cool. If you understand what Mooji is pointing to, is discussing, describing, very cool. If you have never experienced what he is discussing, I'd say watch it again, and again. He reads a letter of an experience some guy had and has written to Mooji about. He reads it and discusses it line by line. At the end he discusses effortlessness. The guy was in this state for only a few seconds, and while he was there, it was effortless. And it was very significant or he wouldn't have written Mooji about it (but part of the letter he is questioning what happened, this is where the title of the thread comes from). I'm right there with everything Mooji says, until the end. He talks about effortlessness. He seems to indicate that there isn't a way to get to this state. I disagree. And that's why I disagree with E over and over concerning volition. If there is no volition, then you just have to wait for the described state to merely happen. And you can wait and wait and wait for months and years. Now, I consider what's described here as the same or very similar to E's sitting on the riverbank watching. I don't understand why E calls this effortlessness. Sure, when you are in the state, effortless. But if non-volition means that there is nothing anyone can do to get to the state, I vehemently disagree. But watch and enjoy, listen to the words.......you...can.... arrive at this state.......right now, tonight. ........And then you have to decide, or can decide, which is better, my ordinary state, or the described state? Anybody can get this........and it's possible to get back there.......... This is what meditation is all about.......meditation by any other name.......... If you think you are doing this or have done it, or have had it happen, and it's not significant, you're not there yet........ I think to get here, this is the MT of zd's ATA-MT ...........maybe something a little more........ Here is a story that you might have heard before: "There was a lion that grew up in a flock of sheep and so he had no consciousness that he was a lion. He didn’t know he was a lion. He would bleat like a sheep, he’d eat grass like a sheep. One day they were wandering at the edge of a big jungle when a mighty lion let out a big roar and leaped out of the forest and right into the middle of the flock. All the sheep scattered and ran away. Imagine the surprise of the jungle lion when he saw this other lion there among the sheep. So, he gave chase. He got hold of him. And there was this lion, cringing in front of the king of the jungle. And the jungle lion said to him, “What are you doing here?” And the other lion said, “Have mercy on me. Don’t eat me. Have mercy on me.” But the king of the forest dragged him away saying “Come on with me.” And he took him to a lake and he said, “Look.” So, the lion who thought he was a sheep looked and for the first time he saw his reflection. He saw his image. Then he looked at the jungle lion, and he looked in the water again, and he let out a mighty roar. He was never a sheep again. It took only one minute." A question. What effort was ever needed for the lion to become a lion? Was he not always a lion with only a mistaken belief separating him from the realization of his lionness? Yes, there is no effort required, and no need to become what you already are. The lion was always what he ever was, is and will be. That is what they are referring to when they speak of effortlessness. This is not to say that effort in getting free from the self referential thinking blocking the full realization of your true identity must not be employed.
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Post by justlikeyou on Dec 20, 2014 8:57:26 GMT -5
Huffpost Healthy Living December 20, 2014
Arthur Rosenfeld The Watcher Within You
In ground-breaking research earlier this century, Nobel laureate Dr. Wilder Penfield, attempted to "map" the connections between specific parts of the body and particular areas of the brain. He wanted to see, for example, where the "wires" from the hand led to, and where the connections to the feet ended up. To produce his map, Penfield had to be able to talk to his subjects while working on them. A needle stuck in a particular part of the brain might make a patient feel hungry or make him feel as if his hand were on fire, but Penfield could only know this if the patient was awake and talking. Fortunately, while the skull has sensory nerves in it, the brain does not, so Penfield could numb the skull and go ahead and poke away without causing the patient pain. This process of poking and talking gave him the information he was after.
But another, unexpected result mystified Penfield: the patient was able to announce what he was experiencing. Rather than simply saying, "Yum, mustard," the patient was able to say, "When you use the first needle, I taste salt, but when you used the second I taste mustard on my tongue." Penfield got to wondering who was the "I" relating the experience, and who was the other "I" he was talking about? Put another way, what person was it who was watching the experiment from afar and reporting on the effects of his needle? He realized that in order to phrase things that way, the patient had to be both able to directly experience the needle and to be aware of the experiment from some place deep within, or high above.
There's more. When Penfield stimulated a place in the brain that made the patient clench his fist, he used such language as "Look, I'm going to do that again, this time try to resist the clenching". Guess what happened? The fist didn't clench so tight! Again this suggested that the person whose hand was moving and the person who was trying to stop the hand from moving were not one and the same! Penfield called the person he was talking to the "watcher".
In Taoist and Buddhist meditation, and indeed in other metaphysical traditions as well, the phenomenon of the watcher is well known. Some systems of inner development go so far as to name a particular watcher as the "real" you. It might be the fifth one, for example, the I watching the I watching the I watching the I watching the I. This may sound like no more than an amusing game, but if you spend a little time at it you'll discover that you can go up a few levels without any special training at all. You could try it right now if you like. Just sit quietly in a peaceful place with your eyes closed. The second I will immediately appear and you will be able to see yourself, in your mind's eye, sitting quietly. Next, see if you can see the I that just saw the I sitting quietly. If you manage that--not typical for someone without meditation training but certainly possible--then keep going until you can no longer ad any further watchers.
For those of us who don't want to take esoteric practice to a high level, Pennfield's study, and concept of multiple levels of consciousness or multiple identities within a single mind provide an instantly useful tool. At any time we can find multiple emotional states within us, and with a little practice we can scale the ladder of watchers until we find one who is cool, calm, collected, not freaking out, not in the throes of passion or despair, the one who has perspective, the watcher who is the highest, best, truest expression of our self.
With a little practice you will be able to distinguish the I who receives information from the optic nerve from the one who notices that the sky is blue from the one who interprets blue sky as a happy, pretty thing, to the one who finds that a blue sky lifts mood. Formal training in meditation makes it easier still, but that level of time and effort and commitment is not necessary in order to simply use our watcher to ground or calm us.
Try the watcher game when you feel stressed, anxious, fearful or angry. See if you can click up a notch and see yourself acting out, then perhaps another notch to see yourself watching yourself. Don't worry about what to do with this ability, understanding or knowledge. The mere act of watching has an amazing ability to defuse the bombs within us, to help calm us and to dispel negative emotions.
New abilities may arise for you in practicing this sort of meditation. The ability was there all along, you simply never asked that part of your brain, that level of your consciouness, that you to take control. With the hygiene of distance, keeping your equilibrium becomes much, much easier. You almost surely will develop better control of your moods not by dint of effort but by dint of transcendence, the ability to see beyond fear or regret or sadness. More immediate and gritty changes to your perception may also occur as dangerous and stressful events have less immediacy. You may find that time slows down when your life is threatened, such as in a car accident, and that you suddenly have more than enough opportunity to react and avoid the crash. Learning to find, ask and use your watchers really can help you handle life's challenges, lead you to deeper understanding, and help you grow.
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Post by silver on Dec 20, 2014 9:10:02 GMT -5
Hi jly. This is reminiscent of NLP - especially the last 2 or 3 paragraphs.
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Post by justlikeyou on Dec 20, 2014 9:20:16 GMT -5
Hi jly. This is reminiscent of NLP - especially the last 2 or 3 paragraphs. Hi Silver. Not sure what NLP is. Just thought it kinda cool that the mainstream is picking up on this stuff more and more it seems. Given the topic of this thread thought it might fit in and perhaps be useful to someone.
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Post by enigma on Dec 21, 2014 11:23:43 GMT -5
I watched the video, very cool. If you understand what Mooji is pointing to, is discussing, describing, very cool. If you have never experienced what he is discussing, I'd say watch it again, and again. He reads a letter of an experience some guy had and has written to Mooji about. He reads it and discusses it line by line. At the end he discusses effortlessness. The guy was in this state for only a few seconds, and while he was there, it was effortless. And it was very significant or he wouldn't have written Mooji about it (but part of the letter he is questioning what happened, this is where the title of the thread comes from). I'm right there with everything Mooji says, until the end. He talks about effortlessness. He seems to indicate that there isn't a way to get to this state. I disagree. And that's why I disagree with E over and over concerning volition. If there is no volition, then you just have to wait for the described state to merely happen. And you can wait and wait and wait for months and years.
Now, I consider what's described here as the same or very similar to E's sitting on the riverbank watching. I don't understand why E calls this effortlessness. Sure, when you are in the state, effortless. But if non-volition means that there is nothing anyone can do to get to the state, I vehemently disagree.But watch and enjoy, listen to the words.......you...can.... arrive at this state.......right now, tonight. ........And then you have to decide, or can decide, which is better, my ordinary state, or the described state? Anybody can get this........and it's possible to get back there.......... This is what meditation is all about.......meditation by any other name.......... If you think you are doing this or have done it, or have had it happen, and it's not significant, you're not there yet........ I think to get here, this is the MT of zd's ATA-MT ...........maybe something a little more........ Effort may be required to get to a state of effortlessness. I've never said you have to sit around and wait for anything because you have no volition. I have said that such an idea is a misunderstanding of what non-volition means. Mooji likes to say 'Go home, zip yourself up in a sleeping bag, and contemplate this'. Obviously, he's not saying sit around and wait either. One thing he did say is 'this is not easy or hard, it's just obvious'. It means to point to different way of looking, knowing, seeing that has very little to do with doing. It's not the advice to do or not do anything, but rather a pointing to this effortless seeing. You can do whatever you want, though the wanting is not yours. There is a pointer meant to help you notice that nonvolition is the case, and there is a pointer to effortlessness to help you notice that an absence is required in order to be effortless. The two pointers should not be conceptually combined to derive the conclusion that you have to sit around and wait for effortlesness to happen.
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Post by enigma on Dec 21, 2014 11:28:11 GMT -5
I watched the video, very cool. If you understand what Mooji is pointing to, is discussing, describing, very cool. If you have never experienced what he is discussing, I'd say watch it again, and again. He reads a letter of an experience some guy had and has written to Mooji about. He reads it and discusses it line by line. At the end he discusses effortlessness. The guy was in this state for only a few seconds, and while he was there, it was effortless. And it was very significant or he wouldn't have written Mooji about it (but part of the letter he is questioning what happened, this is where the title of the thread comes from). I'm right there with everything Mooji says, until the end. He talks about effortlessness. He seems to indicate that there isn't a way to get to this state. I disagree. And that's why I disagree with E over and over concerning volition. If there is no volition, then you just have to wait for the described state to merely happen. And you can wait and wait and wait for months and years. Now, I consider what's described here as the same or very similar to E's sitting on the riverbank watching. I don't understand why E calls this effortlessness. Sure, when you are in the state, effortless. But if non-volition means that there is nothing anyone can do to get to the state, I vehemently disagree. But watch and enjoy, listen to the words.......you...can.... arrive at this state.......right now, tonight. ........And then you have to decide, or can decide, which is better, my ordinary state, or the described state? Anybody can get this........and it's possible to get back there.......... This is what meditation is all about.......meditation by any other name.......... If you think you are doing this or have done it, or have had it happen, and it's not significant, you're not there yet........ I think to get here, this is the MT of zd's ATA-MT ...........maybe something a little more........ Here is a story that you might have heard before: "There was a lion that grew up in a flock of sheep and so he had no consciousness that he was a lion. He didn’t know he was a lion. He would bleat like a sheep, he’d eat grass like a sheep. One day they were wandering at the edge of a big jungle when a mighty lion let out a big roar and leaped out of the forest and right into the middle of the flock. All the sheep scattered and ran away. Imagine the surprise of the jungle lion when he saw this other lion there among the sheep. So, he gave chase. He got hold of him. And there was this lion, cringing in front of the king of the jungle. And the jungle lion said to him, “What are you doing here?” And the other lion said, “Have mercy on me. Don’t eat me. Have mercy on me.” But the king of the forest dragged him away saying “Come on with me.” And he took him to a lake and he said, “Look.” So, the lion who thought he was a sheep looked and for the first time he saw his reflection. He saw his image. Then he looked at the jungle lion, and he looked in the water again, and he let out a mighty roar. He was never a sheep again. It took only one minute." A question. What effort was ever needed for the lion to become a lion? Was he not always a lion with only a mistaken belief separating him from the realization of his lionness? Yes, there is no effort required, and no need to become what you already are. The lion was always what he ever was, is and will be. That is what they are referring to when they speak of effortlessness. This is not to say that effort in getting free from the self referential thinking blocking the full realization of your true identity must not be employed. Zacklee........ stupid lion. Hehe
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 11:34:27 GMT -5
I watched the video, very cool. If you understand what Mooji is pointing to, is discussing, describing, very cool. If you have never experienced what he is discussing, I'd say watch it again, and again. He reads a letter of an experience some guy had and has written to Mooji about. He reads it and discusses it line by line. At the end he discusses effortlessness. The guy was in this state for only a few seconds, and while he was there, it was effortless. And it was very significant or he wouldn't have written Mooji about it (but part of the letter he is questioning what happened, this is where the title of the thread comes from). I'm right there with everything Mooji says, until the end. He talks about effortlessness. He seems to indicate that there isn't a way to get to this state. I disagree. And that's why I disagree with E over and over concerning volition. If there is no volition, then you just have to wait for the described state to merely happen. And you can wait and wait and wait for months and years.
Now, I consider what's described here as the same or very similar to E's sitting on the riverbank watching. I don't understand why E calls this effortlessness. Sure, when you are in the state, effortless. But if non-volition means that there is nothing anyone can do to get to the state, I vehemently disagree.But watch and enjoy, listen to the words.......you...can.... arrive at this state.......right now, tonight. ........And then you have to decide, or can decide, which is better, my ordinary state, or the described state? Anybody can get this........and it's possible to get back there.......... This is what meditation is all about.......meditation by any other name.......... If you think you are doing this or have done it, or have had it happen, and it's not significant, you're not there yet........ I think to get here, this is the MT of zd's ATA-MT ...........maybe something a little more........ Effort may be required to get to a state of effortlessness. I've never said you have to sit around and wait for anything because you have no volition. I have said that such an idea is a misunderstanding of what non-volition means. Mooji likes to say 'Go home, zip yourself up in a sleeping bag, and contemplate this'. Obviously, he's not saying sit around and wait either. One thing he did say is 'this is not easy or hard, it's just obvious'. It means to point to different way of looking, knowing, seeing that has very little to do with doing. It's not the advice to do or not do anything, but rather a pointing to this effortless seeing. You can do whatever you want, though the wanting is not yours. There is a pointer meant to help you notice that nonvolition is the case, and there is a pointer to effortlessness to help you notice that an absence is required in order to be effortless. The two pointers should not be conceptually combined to derive the conclusion that you have to sit around and wait for effortlesness to happen. Besides, to the seeker, doing nothing is moot. There may be an attempt to be effortless, to act like one is disinterested, just go on about life as normal, but it is temporary. Sooner or later you're going to trip on something. Dharma is everywhere and can only be ignored by the so-plagued for so long. Doing, practicing, seeking. The point is to see that effort happening, feel it, face it. Where is it coming from?
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Post by enigma on Dec 21, 2014 11:47:22 GMT -5
Huffpost Healthy Living December 20, 2014 Arthur Rosenfeld The Watcher Within You In ground-breaking research earlier this century, Nobel laureate Dr. Wilder Penfield, attempted to "map" the connections between specific parts of the body and particular areas of the brain. He wanted to see, for example, where the "wires" from the hand led to, and where the connections to the feet ended up. To produce his map, Penfield had to be able to talk to his subjects while working on them. A needle stuck in a particular part of the brain might make a patient feel hungry or make him feel as if his hand were on fire, but Penfield could only know this if the patient was awake and talking. Fortunately, while the skull has sensory nerves in it, the brain does not, so Penfield could numb the skull and go ahead and poke away without causing the patient pain. This process of poking and talking gave him the information he was after. But another, unexpected result mystified Penfield: the patient was able to announce what he was experiencing. Rather than simply saying, "Yum, mustard," the patient was able to say, "When you use the first needle, I taste salt, but when you used the second I taste mustard on my tongue." Penfield got to wondering who was the "I" relating the experience, and who was the other "I" he was talking about? Put another way, what person was it who was watching the experiment from afar and reporting on the effects of his needle? He realized that in order to phrase things that way, the patient had to be both able to directly experience the needle and to be aware of the experiment from some place deep within, or high above. There's more. When Penfield stimulated a place in the brain that made the patient clench his fist, he used such language as "Look, I'm going to do that again, this time try to resist the clenching". Guess what happened? The fist didn't clench so tight! Again this suggested that the person whose hand was moving and the person who was trying to stop the hand from moving were not one and the same! Penfield called the person he was talking to the "watcher". In Taoist and Buddhist meditation, and indeed in other metaphysical traditions as well, the phenomenon of the watcher is well known. Some systems of inner development go so far as to name a particular watcher as the "real" you. It might be the fifth one, for example, the I watching the I watching the I watching the I watching the I. This may sound like no more than an amusing game, but if you spend a little time at it you'll discover that you can go up a few levels without any special training at all. You could try it right now if you like. Just sit quietly in a peaceful place with your eyes closed. The second I will immediately appear and you will be able to see yourself, in your mind's eye, sitting quietly. Next, see if you can see the I that just saw the I sitting quietly. If you manage that--not typical for someone without meditation training but certainly possible--then keep going until you can no longer ad any further watchers. For those of us who don't want to take esoteric practice to a high level, Pennfield's study, and concept of multiple levels of consciousness or multiple identities within a single mind provide an instantly useful tool. At any time we can find multiple emotional states within us, and with a little practice we can scale the ladder of watchers until we find one who is cool, calm, collected, not freaking out, not in the throes of passion or despair, the one who has perspective, the watcher who is the highest, best, truest expression of our self.With a little practice you will be able to distinguish the I who receives information from the optic nerve from the one who notices that the sky is blue from the one who interprets blue sky as a happy, pretty thing, to the one who finds that a blue sky lifts mood. Formal training in meditation makes it easier still, but that level of time and effort and commitment is not necessary in order to simply use our watcher to ground or calm us. Try the watcher game when you feel stressed, anxious, fearful or angry. See if you can click up a notch and see yourself acting out, then perhaps another notch to see yourself watching yourself. Don't worry about what to do with this ability, understanding or knowledge. The mere act of watching has an amazing ability to defuse the bombs within us, to help calm us and to dispel negative emotions. New abilities may arise for you in practicing this sort of meditation. The ability was there all along, you simply never asked that part of your brain, that level of your consciouness, that you to take control. With the hygiene of distance, keeping your equilibrium becomes much, much easier. You almost surely will develop better control of your moods not by dint of effort but by dint of transcendence, the ability to see beyond fear or regret or sadness. More immediate and gritty changes to your perception may also occur as dangerous and stressful events have less immediacy. You may find that time slows down when your life is threatened, such as in a car accident, and that you suddenly have more than enough opportunity to react and avoid the crash. Learning to find, ask and use your watchers really can help you handle life's challenges, lead you to deeper understanding, and help you grow. His conclusion that there are multiple levels of consciousness is in error. There is always only the silent witnessing. Identification with the observer makes it seem like there are two, and then when one tries to notice that the observer is being observed, the mind tends to identify with THAT observer, and so on. The five levels or so of observers are not levels of consciousness, but just mind reassigning identification over and over until it's seen there is no end to that game. There's just one step back. Everything else is in front of you.
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Post by justlikeyou on Dec 21, 2014 11:57:54 GMT -5
Huffpost Healthy Living December 20, 2014 Arthur Rosenfeld The Watcher Within You In ground-breaking research earlier this century, Nobel laureate Dr. Wilder Penfield, attempted to "map" the connections between specific parts of the body and particular areas of the brain. He wanted to see, for example, where the "wires" from the hand led to, and where the connections to the feet ended up. To produce his map, Penfield had to be able to talk to his subjects while working on them. A needle stuck in a particular part of the brain might make a patient feel hungry or make him feel as if his hand were on fire, but Penfield could only know this if the patient was awake and talking. Fortunately, while the skull has sensory nerves in it, the brain does not, so Penfield could numb the skull and go ahead and poke away without causing the patient pain. This process of poking and talking gave him the information he was after. But another, unexpected result mystified Penfield: the patient was able to announce what he was experiencing. Rather than simply saying, "Yum, mustard," the patient was able to say, "When you use the first needle, I taste salt, but when you used the second I taste mustard on my tongue." Penfield got to wondering who was the "I" relating the experience, and who was the other "I" he was talking about? Put another way, what person was it who was watching the experiment from afar and reporting on the effects of his needle? He realized that in order to phrase things that way, the patient had to be both able to directly experience the needle and to be aware of the experiment from some place deep within, or high above. There's more. When Penfield stimulated a place in the brain that made the patient clench his fist, he used such language as "Look, I'm going to do that again, this time try to resist the clenching". Guess what happened? The fist didn't clench so tight! Again this suggested that the person whose hand was moving and the person who was trying to stop the hand from moving were not one and the same! Penfield called the person he was talking to the "watcher". In Taoist and Buddhist meditation, and indeed in other metaphysical traditions as well, the phenomenon of the watcher is well known. Some systems of inner development go so far as to name a particular watcher as the "real" you. It might be the fifth one, for example, the I watching the I watching the I watching the I watching the I. This may sound like no more than an amusing game, but if you spend a little time at it you'll discover that you can go up a few levels without any special training at all. You could try it right now if you like. Just sit quietly in a peaceful place with your eyes closed. The second I will immediately appear and you will be able to see yourself, in your mind's eye, sitting quietly. Next, see if you can see the I that just saw the I sitting quietly. If you manage that--not typical for someone without meditation training but certainly possible--then keep going until you can no longer ad any further watchers. For those of us who don't want to take esoteric practice to a high level, Pennfield's study, and concept of multiple levels of consciousness or multiple identities within a single mind provide an instantly useful tool. At any time we can find multiple emotional states within us, and with a little practice we can scale the ladder of watchers until we find one who is cool, calm, collected, not freaking out, not in the throes of passion or despair, the one who has perspective, the watcher who is the highest, best, truest expression of our self.With a little practice you will be able to distinguish the I who receives information from the optic nerve from the one who notices that the sky is blue from the one who interprets blue sky as a happy, pretty thing, to the one who finds that a blue sky lifts mood. Formal training in meditation makes it easier still, but that level of time and effort and commitment is not necessary in order to simply use our watcher to ground or calm us. Try the watcher game when you feel stressed, anxious, fearful or angry. See if you can click up a notch and see yourself acting out, then perhaps another notch to see yourself watching yourself. Don't worry about what to do with this ability, understanding or knowledge. The mere act of watching has an amazing ability to defuse the bombs within us, to help calm us and to dispel negative emotions. New abilities may arise for you in practicing this sort of meditation. The ability was there all along, you simply never asked that part of your brain, that level of your consciouness, that you to take control. With the hygiene of distance, keeping your equilibrium becomes much, much easier. You almost surely will develop better control of your moods not by dint of effort but by dint of transcendence, the ability to see beyond fear or regret or sadness. More immediate and gritty changes to your perception may also occur as dangerous and stressful events have less immediacy. You may find that time slows down when your life is threatened, such as in a car accident, and that you suddenly have more than enough opportunity to react and avoid the crash. Learning to find, ask and use your watchers really can help you handle life's challenges, lead you to deeper understanding, and help you grow. His conclusion that there are multiple levels of consciousness is in error. There is always only the silent witnessing. Identification with the observer makes it seem like there are two, and then when one tries to notice that the observer is being observed, the mind tends to identify with THAT observer, and so on. The five levels or so of observers are not levels of consciousness, but just mind reassigning identification over and over until it's seen there is no end to that game. There's just one step back. Everything else is in front of you. Agreed. As I told Silver, it's cool that this stuff is talked about at all in the mainstream media.
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Post by enigma on Dec 21, 2014 12:04:36 GMT -5
Effort may be required to get to a state of effortlessness. I've never said you have to sit around and wait for anything because you have no volition. I have said that such an idea is a misunderstanding of what non-volition means. Mooji likes to say 'Go home, zip yourself up in a sleeping bag, and contemplate this'. Obviously, he's not saying sit around and wait either. One thing he did say is 'this is not easy or hard, it's just obvious'. It means to point to different way of looking, knowing, seeing that has very little to do with doing. It's not the advice to do or not do anything, but rather a pointing to this effortless seeing. You can do whatever you want, though the wanting is not yours. There is a pointer meant to help you notice that nonvolition is the case, and there is a pointer to effortlessness to help you notice that an absence is required in order to be effortless. The two pointers should not be conceptually combined to derive the conclusion that you have to sit around and wait for effortlesness to happen. Besides, to the seeker, doing nothing is moot. There may be an attempt to be effortless, to act like one is disinterested, just go on about life as normal, but it is temporary. Sooner or later you're going to trip on something. Dharma is everywhere and can only be ignored by the so-plagued for so long. Doing, practicing, seeking. The point is to see that effort happening, feel it, face it. Where is it coming from? Yes, noticing is the key, which is, itself, effortless, and therefore is not a doing. Mind naturally wants to turn pointers into doing prescriptions. At some point the search gets more subtle; less doing and more looking.
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Post by enigma on Dec 21, 2014 12:08:42 GMT -5
His conclusion that there are multiple levels of consciousness is in error. There is always only the silent witnessing. Identification with the observer makes it seem like there are two, and then when one tries to notice that the observer is being observed, the mind tends to identify with THAT observer, and so on. The five levels or so of observers are not levels of consciousness, but just mind reassigning identification over and over until it's seen there is no end to that game. There's just one step back. Everything else is in front of you. Agreed. As I told Silver, it's cool that this stuff is talked about at all in the mainstream media. It's a good sign. It's also good that science is faced with the potential dissolution of objectivity.
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