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Post by enigma on Dec 18, 2014 20:26:02 GMT -5
I don't see good/bad, broken fixed, which is not to say I don't see Silver struggling, just that it's her self created illusion, and she can stop creating it any time. I think before you assume Silver or anyone here is 'struggling' that you take the time to ask them. Your ontology requires that you see 'most' humans, other than yourself, struggling deeply......thus, you look outwards and see a lot of struggle that you deem to have nothing at all to do with you. I don't see most humans struggling deeply. According to my "ontology", it all balances itself out in relative experience. Remember? Yin-Yang, dualistic feeling, all that stuff you struggle against so that you can be happy all the time? That balance is why Silver is pretty much okay with all the struggle she creates. However, there is another way to live, and I don't need to ask her in order to know she is not living that way, and in fact she doesn't know anything about that way, so she can't help me understand where she is. It would be a bit like asking the unconscious what they are unconscious of. They don't know, so what good does it do to ask?
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Post by Reefs on Dec 18, 2014 20:42:47 GMT -5
The way I see it is that enigma and reefs (and others) aren't so much interested in making life more comfortable or improving things but helping you go out beyond good vs bad, broken vs fixed etc.This can be a profoundly uncomfortable process, and it can be wrongly seen as harsh, especially when no quarter is given. Maybe it's like the ripping off of a thousand bandaids. Yes it hurts, but you don't leave old bandaids on forever - at some point you see how festy they are and want them off. Maybe it would help to find out what you want and then go from there. Since you've got an interest in Buddhism, maybe some work with a therapist (hakomi might be good) or a mindfulness course (I can recommend MBSR). Honestly I have no idea... but I wish you well in the search. Question is; why is it "helping another go beyond good vs. bad, broken vs. fixed" when it's E, or Reefs dishing it out, but it's "nasty, sarcastic, insult" when Silver (or another) dishes it back the same way? That's the seeming double standard that Silver is addressing in her post. You won't see us going on a crusade about style. That's a distinct Fingandtzusil feature. Which would be fine if you could really hold the moral high ground and walk your talk. And if someone constantly complains about nastiness and then shows that exact same behavior, even to the degree that the very sentence structure is already pure toxicity, then there's someone not walking her talk. And when someone is not walking her talk, that's a clear sign of confusion. So, I would be careful about listening to advice or assessments coming from such a confused one. It's usually just unconscious projections.
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Post by figgles on Dec 18, 2014 22:56:16 GMT -5
I think before you assume Silver or anyone here is 'struggling' that you take the time to ask them. Your ontology requires that you see 'most' humans, other than yourself, struggling deeply......thus, you look outwards and see a lot of struggle that you deem to have nothing at all to do with you. I don't see most humans struggling deeply. According to my "ontology", it all balances itself out in relative experience. Remember? Yin-Yang, dualistic feeling, all that stuff you struggle against so that you can be happy all the time? That balance is why Silver is pretty much okay with all the struggle she creates. However, there is another way to live, and I don't need to ask her in order to know she is not living that way, and in fact she doesn't know anything about that way, so she can't help me understand where she is. It would be a bit like asking the unconscious what they are unconscious of. They don't know, so what good does it do to ask? Can you absolutely know that it's true? How do you react when you believe that thought? Who would you be without that belief?
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Post by Reefs on Dec 19, 2014 0:13:25 GMT -5
I don't see most humans struggling deeply. According to my "ontology", it all balances itself out in relative experience. Remember? Yin-Yang, dualistic feeling, all that stuff you struggle against so that you can be happy all the time? That balance is why Silver is pretty much okay with all the struggle she creates. However, there is another way to live, and I don't need to ask her in order to know she is not living that way, and in fact she doesn't know anything about that way, so she can't help me understand where she is. It would be a bit like asking the unconscious what they are unconscious of. They don't know, so what good does it do to ask? Can you absolutely know that it's true? How do you react when you believe that thought? Who would you be without that belief? That sounds a bit desperate to play Katie here. Obviously you don't have anything to say in reply. But what's funny about your reply is that according to your own face value dogma, those questions would be moving into TMT and a falling out of present moment, right? And there we go again, your walk/talk issues. Why can't you allow others having their own face value experience as you allow it for yourself? Why always those double standards? I'm speculating it's because you yourself don't even believe in what you are posting here. It's all just hot air.
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Post by laughter on Dec 19, 2014 0:39:58 GMT -5
Yeah. The patterns are all there. The rallying is starting, then the demands to be treated the way she wants to be treated. There'll be some blocking going down in a day or two. Then Peter will come in on Boxing Day have a moan, and it will all go quiet again. Actually, there's some truth to the collective tension that shows up around the Thanksgiving/Christmas/New years time frame. That 'energy' used to take me by surprise, but the more conscious of it I am, the less it can be felt. Still, it shows up in relating to others, like here on the forum. Always loved the feel during the holidays and still do. It's the flip side to a heavily Catholic mill town. There's an opening and feeling of fellowship. Lots of lights everywhere, that sort of thing. It's very nice.
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Post by laughter on Dec 19, 2014 0:45:18 GMT -5
The underlined is a double bind. Thanks! I can fix that. Stay away! (** rastaphant stares blankly **)
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Post by Reefs on Dec 19, 2014 1:04:35 GMT -5
I have no idea what you're getting at (Enigma & Reefs). I'm being sarcastic at times, but I'm talking straight a lot of the time, too, so I have no idea what your beef could possibly be. You choose not to govern yourselves, and are free to say whatever comes to your mind about whomever disagrees with you, so I don't know why anyone else should feel restricted, if the rules are such. There are lots of people here to talk to, and as a forum, most people choose to chat with those they have at least a modicum of rapport with. Evidently, that's not the case with a lot of people and it's neither here nor there - it just is. So, you don't need to talk to me, when there are lots of other peeps you can chat with here. But you keep sniping in. You specifically keep targeting us. Maybe you should stop that first.
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Post by Reefs on Dec 19, 2014 1:21:40 GMT -5
I have no idea what you're getting at (Enigma & Reefs). I'm being sarcastic at times, but I'm talking straight a lot of the time, too, so I have no idea what your beef could possibly be. You choose not to govern yourselves, and are free to say whatever comes to your mind about whomever disagrees with you, so I don't know why anyone else should feel restricted, if the rules are such. There are lots of people here to talk to, and as a forum, most people choose to chat with those they have at least a modicum of rapport with. Evidently, that's not the case with a lot of people and it's neither here nor there - it just is. So, you don't need to talk to me, when there are lots of other peeps you can chat with here. The way I see it is that enigma and reefs (and others) aren't so much interested in making life more comfortable or improving things but helping you go out beyond good vs bad, broken vs fixed etc. This can be a profoundly uncomfortable process, and it can be wrongly seen as harsh, especially when no quarter is given. Maybe it's like the ripping off of a thousand bandaids. Yes it hurts, but you don't leave old bandaids on forever - at some point you see how festy they are and want them off. Maybe it would help to find out what you want and then go from there. Since you've got an interest in Buddhism, maybe some work with a therapist (hakomi might be good) or a mindfulness course (I can recommend MBSR). Honestly I have no idea... but I wish you well in the search. You cannot force understanding. But what you can do is provide opportunities for understanding, e.g. pointing out when someone is not walking her talk and stuck with a self-serving dog and pony show. That's easy to do with this text medium. There are roughly 3 categories of folks on spirituality forums: 1) those who are mostly struggling with psychological issues (crusaders and moral apostles) 2) those who are struggling with spiritual issues (hyper-minders on the quest for meaning) and 3) those who are done with 1) and 2) and who are interested in truth (no-frills and no-nonsense). Group 1) will mostly focus on behavior (the nicer the better), group 2) will mostly focus on metaphysics (the more complex the better), group 3) will focus mostly on truth (the simpler the better) Typical behavior of group 1) is crusading and giraffing, of group 2) over-thinking and ESA, of group 3) keeping things short and straight to the point.
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Post by silver on Dec 19, 2014 1:30:17 GMT -5
I have no idea what you're getting at (Enigma & Reefs). I'm being sarcastic at times, but I'm talking straight a lot of the time, too, so I have no idea what your beef could possibly be. You choose not to govern yourselves, and are free to say whatever comes to your mind about whomever disagrees with you, so I don't know why anyone else should feel restricted, if the rules are such. There are lots of people here to talk to, and as a forum, most people choose to chat with those they have at least a modicum of rapport with. Evidently, that's not the case with a lot of people and it's neither here nor there - it just is. So, you don't need to talk to me, when there are lots of other peeps you can chat with here. But you keep sniping in. You specifically keep targeting us. Maybe you should stop that first. Don't give me any bad looks. You keep sniping in and talking to me. If you stop, I won't have anything to say if you stop talking to me and about me, I won't have a problem -- stop saying anything to me and about me.
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Post by enigma on Dec 19, 2014 2:18:16 GMT -5
I don't see most humans struggling deeply. According to my "ontology", it all balances itself out in relative experience. Remember? Yin-Yang, dualistic feeling, all that stuff you struggle against so that you can be happy all the time? That balance is why Silver is pretty much okay with all the struggle she creates. However, there is another way to live, and I don't need to ask her in order to know she is not living that way, and in fact she doesn't know anything about that way, so she can't help me understand where she is. It would be a bit like asking the unconscious what they are unconscious of. They don't know, so what good does it do to ask? Can you absolutely know that it's true? How do you react when you believe that thought? Who would you be without that belief? You're pulling a Katie? You're kidding, right?
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Post by enigma on Dec 19, 2014 2:37:51 GMT -5
Actually, there's some truth to the collective tension that shows up around the Thanksgiving/Christmas/New years time frame. That 'energy' used to take me by surprise, but the more conscious of it I am, the less it can be felt. Still, it shows up in relating to others, like here on the forum. Always loved the feel during the holidays and still do. It's the flip side to a heavily Catholic mill town. There's an opening and feeling of fellowship. Lots of lights everywhere, that sort of thing. It's very nice. That's the superficial side that peeps show each other. Beneath the Yin of gratefulness at Thanksgiving is the Yang of familial resentments. Beneath the joy and togetherness of Christmas is a quiet desperation and loneliness. Beneath the anticipation of the new year is the deep regrets of the old one. I've never had any attachments to any holiday, but as I became more sensitive to those around me, I began to see and feel what was hidden and unexpressed, and felt by billions at once. It's begun already for the Christmas season. You're sensitive enough to feel it, and mature enough to respond with compassion, and perhaps a tear.
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Post by enigma on Dec 19, 2014 2:41:22 GMT -5
The way I see it is that enigma and reefs (and others) aren't so much interested in making life more comfortable or improving things but helping you go out beyond good vs bad, broken vs fixed etc. This can be a profoundly uncomfortable process, and it can be wrongly seen as harsh, especially when no quarter is given. Maybe it's like the ripping off of a thousand bandaids. Yes it hurts, but you don't leave old bandaids on forever - at some point you see how festy they are and want them off. Maybe it would help to find out what you want and then go from there. Since you've got an interest in Buddhism, maybe some work with a therapist (hakomi might be good) or a mindfulness course (I can recommend MBSR). Honestly I have no idea... but I wish you well in the search. You cannot force understanding. But what you can do is provide opportunities for understanding, e.g. pointing out when someone is not walking her talk and stuck with a self-serving dog and pony show. That's easy to do with this text medium. There are roughly 3 categories of folks on spirituality forums: 1) those who are mostly struggling with psychological issues (crusaders and moral apostles) 2) those who are struggling with spiritual issues (hyper-minders on the quest for meaning) and 3) those who are done with 1) and 2) and who are interested in truth (no-frills and no-nonsense). Group 1) will mostly focus on behavior (the nicer the better), group 2) will mostly focus on metaphysics (the more complex the better), group 3) will focus mostly on truth (the simpler the better) Typical behavior of group 1) is crusading and giraffing, of group 2) over-thinking and ESA, of group 3) keeping things short and straight to the point. Nicely said.
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Post by enigma on Dec 19, 2014 2:43:03 GMT -5
But you keep sniping in. You specifically keep targeting us. Maybe you should stop that first. Don't give me any bad looks. You keep sniping in and talking to me. If you stop, I won't have anything to say if you stop talking to me and about me, I won't have a problem -- stop saying anything to me and about me. Why do you give us so much power over you?
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Post by tzujanli on Dec 19, 2014 6:24:21 GMT -5
Can you absolutely know that it's true? How do you react when you believe that thought? Who would you be without that belief? You're pulling a Katie? You're kidding, right? No.. you're being called-out on your BS, on your illusion that you can know other people's mindscapes.. on your insistence that you are right, and anyone that disagrees with you is wrong.. on your refusal to come empty, to see what's happening without the filter of nonduality evangelical beliefs..
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Post by tzujanli on Dec 19, 2014 6:26:58 GMT -5
You cannot force understanding. But what you can do is provide opportunities for understanding, e.g. pointing out when someone is not walking her talk and stuck with a self-serving dog and pony show. That's easy to do with this text medium. There are roughly 3 categories of folks on spirituality forums: 1) those who are mostly struggling with psychological issues (crusaders and moral apostles) 2) those who are struggling with spiritual issues (hyper-minders on the quest for meaning) and 3) those who are done with 1) and 2) and who are interested in truth (no-frills and no-nonsense). Group 1) will mostly focus on behavior (the nicer the better), group 2) will mostly focus on metaphysics (the more complex the better), group 3) will focus mostly on truth (the simpler the better) Typical behavior of group 1) is crusading and giraffing, of group 2) over-thinking and ESA, of group 3) keeping things short and straight to the point. Nicely said. Mutual Admiration Club = self-perpetuating beliefs..
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