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Post by japhy on Dec 7, 2014 5:54:35 GMT -5
Hello,
yesterday I had a relaxed day and time to contemplate and I have become aware fo a question wich has been wavering around in the background (of what?).
The best I can put it, is the title. One might during meditation (for example breath awareness) go into some altered state where thought activity diminishes. This is the purpose (really?) of the exercise, but then since there is little thought there is no possibility for the person (which one?) to refelect (why?) upon wich has been seen (by whom?). Therefore any insights (into what?) during this state (do they happen?)are lost. What to do now?
Some of you folks might come to tell the japhy person, that he does not exist and therefore has not to be informed (How can I send a letter to an imaginary address?). But the japhy might be happy if anyone could answer on his level of understanding :-D.
Thank you.
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Post by japhy on Dec 7, 2014 6:08:41 GMT -5
One might as well ask:
In deep sleep (what's that?) we all return to our source (sure?). How comes that there are so few sages around?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 7, 2014 11:09:23 GMT -5
Hello, yesterday I had a relaxed day and time to contemplate and I have become aware fo a question wich has been wavering around in the background (of what?). The best I can put it, is the title. One might during meditation (for example breath awareness) go into some altered state where thought activity diminishes. This is the purpose (really?) of the exercise, but then since there is little thought there is no possibility for the person (which one?) to refelect (why?) upon wich has been seen (by whom?). Therefore any insights (into what?) during this state (do they happen?)are lost. What to do now? Some of you folks might come to tell the japhy person, that he does not exist and therefore has not to be informed (How can I send a letter to an imaginary address?). But the japhy might be happy if anyone could answer on his level of understanding :-D. Thank you. Hey japhy......Amazon tempted me once again with 'an extra 30% off any one book Christmas special', so I was poking around yesterday this new book I got on Chuang Tzu. One of the writers in the collection is discussing Chuang Tzu's musings on self and the Tao. In a chapter the world-historical riddle, a commentator is bringing up what Chuang Tzu says: "I have lost me", after looking, as if he had "lost his opposite". "I have lost me" introduces a doubleness; for it implies both that I am still here and that I am gone. I am absent and present, both at once: "I" lost "me", I am both the loser who is left behind after the loss and that which is lost. This both/and equivocation on the existence of self is a central theme of the chapter. Chuang Tzu generally ends his discussions with a double-pronged question: "Is there really X? Or is there really no X"? In my view, this is meant to imply neither that there is X nor that there is not, but simply to come to rest precisely at the uncertainty and the question itself". .....pg 41 A chapter by Brook Ziporyn, Hiding the World in the World, Uneven Discourses on the Zhuangzi, edited by Scott Cook, 2003 This is how I would explain it (your question, not Chuang Tzu, or maybe both). We have two aspects of self, our essential nature and our acquired nature, cultural self, aka ego. These two aspects of self are generally unacquainted with each other. So, japhy begins meditating as japhy-ego. But the very purpose of meditation is to access japhy-essence (although most people don't have this understanding of this purpose). So, there is a movement from japhy-ego to japhy-essence. japhy-essence is the part of self which has the insights, real, actual insights. But then the meditation ends and japhy says...woah...what happened? where did the insights go? japhy has moved back from japhy-essence to japhy-ego, and the insights don't carry over. What do you do now? ..........Well, you have to decide what is valued more, ordinary japhy-ego or japhy-essence with the insights. If you value japhy-essence more, you learn to take your meditation in-to ordinary life. You can do it in the beginning walking to the water cooler, at a red-light, in line at the grocery store or at the bank, you can find places. This is not so easy, at least in the beginning and maybe not for many years. But you keep trying. ........and then maybe some day the two shall become one......either japhy-ego ends, or japhy-essence ends........ japhy could be the next sage...........
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Post by zendancer on Dec 7, 2014 12:12:09 GMT -5
Hello, yesterday I had a relaxed day and time to contemplate and I have become aware fo a question wich has been wavering around in the background (of what?). The best I can put it, is the title. One might during meditation (for example breath awareness) go into some altered state where thought activity diminishes. This is the purpose (really?) of the exercise, but then since there is little thought there is no possibility for the person (which one?) to refelect (why?) upon wich has been seen (by whom?). Therefore any insights (into what?) during this state (do they happen?)are lost. What to do now? Some of you folks might come to tell the japhy person, that he does not exist and therefore has not to be informed (How can I send a letter to an imaginary address?). But the japhy might be happy if anyone could answer on his level of understanding :-D. Thank you. Japhy: TMT! This is what the intellect does; it conjures up questions upon questions that merely increase confusion. Probably anyone who has meditated has had to deal with the same sorts of questions. I was once asked a koan by a Zen teacher. I already knew the answer to the koan, but the mind had to jump into the act. I thought, "Oh, a Zen response is always supposed to be fresh and spontaneous, so how do I answer a question that I already know the answer to? If I give the same answer, it won't be fresh and spontaneous." Ha ha. I had to go back to my cushion and meditate for two hours to see through the silly question that prevented me from answering the koan. You've read so much about "the false person," "the real person," and other non-dual pointers that the mind is now generating additional confusion. Who you are--the cosmos manifesting through a particular body/mind--is the only actor on the scene. IT, using the bag of flesh we call "Japhy" hears, sees, feels, etc. and thinks. It is intelligent, so simply relax and be what you are. FWIW, the purpose of meditation is NOT to get into altered states of mind. That may happen, but if it does, it's just a temporary phenomenon. All kinds of weird stuff can arise during meditation, but the rule to remember is "Watch but do not touch." If you go into Samadhi, for example, you will remember what it was like to enter that state, but there is no content while in that state, so there will be nothing to remember other than some general sense impressions felt while entering that state--coolness, solidification/unification, etc. If you see some sort of vision while meditating, you will remember what you saw afterwards, but don't get attached to it; it's just garbage arising from the subconscious. Zen calls that sort of thing "makyo," and it will eventually go away. Remember, who you THINK you are is NOT who you are. Who you REALLY are is what typed these words and is now reading these words. Who you REALLY are has a memory and has insights and experiences. Who you THINK you are cannot do anything and has NEVER done anything because selfhood is imaginary. Who you REALLY are is the only actor who can do anything. It is the only actor anywhere. It pumps blood through the body, transmits nerve inpulses, thinks, and often does a good job of confusing itself--ha ha. Be still, look within, look without, and stay alert, and the truth will sooner or later become obvious. At some point you will realize that the REAL YOU is the ONLY ONE here. Cheers.
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Post by Reefs on Dec 7, 2014 12:25:06 GMT -5
Hello, yesterday I had a relaxed day and time to contemplate and I have become aware fo a question wich has been wavering around in the background (of what?). The best I can put it, is the title. One might during meditation (for example breath awareness) go into some altered state where thought activity diminishes. This is the purpose (really?) of the exercise, but then since there is little thought there is no possibility for the person (which one?) to refelect (why?) upon wich has been seen (by whom?). Therefore any insights (into what?) during this state (do they happen?)are lost. What to do now?Some of you folks might come to tell the japhy person, that he does not exist and therefore has not to be informed (How can I send a letter to an imaginary address?). But the japhy might be happy if anyone could answer on his level of understanding :-D. Thank you. That's a mind game. Those insights are memory based. Realization is not memory based and therefore not an insight. Insights become a truth you can carry around and hang on your wall, but realization is truthin', there's no way that you can carry it around or hang it on your wall. So, you are wasting your time there.
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Post by japhy on Dec 7, 2014 12:47:50 GMT -5
Thanks, japhy feels annoyed now :-D. Haha.
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Post by enigma on Dec 7, 2014 15:56:01 GMT -5
Hello, yesterday I had a relaxed day and time to contemplate and I have become aware fo a question wich has been wavering around in the background (of what?). The best I can put it, is the title. One might during meditation (for example breath awareness) go into some altered state where thought activity diminishes. This is the purpose (really?) of the exercise, but then since there is little thought there is no possibility for the person (which one?) to refelect (why?) upon wich has been seen (by whom?). Therefore any insights (into what?) during this state (do they happen?)are lost. What to do now? Some of you folks might come to tell the japhy person, that he does not exist and therefore has not to be informed (How can I send a letter to an imaginary address?). But the japhy might be happy if anyone could answer on his level of understanding :-D. Thank you. Yes, it's a good point. Meditation is often an attempt to still the mind, which can lead to spontaneous insights and woo woo experiences, but the lack of insights and experiences isn't the real problem. Mind is the real problem, and it needs to be involved in the solution. What we usually mean by contemplation is a kind of meditation that involves mind in a more quiet state, and this not only allows for a focus of attention that can lead to very specific realizations that relate to that focus, but it also allows mind to be informed, as you say, about what this means. This is critical if the conditioning is to undergo any changes. If mind is not ultimately informed by the realization, the realization is lost the moment it is no longer seen, because realization is non-conceptual and timeless. (occurring only in the moment that it is seen, and leaving no tracks in the mind in the form of mental clarity or memories) As such, the realization has no effect on the conditioning and mind continues to perform just as it did before the realization. This is why those realizations in a 'no-mind' state often take the form of an experience, which mind then conceptualizes and grasps and tries to repeat, bypassing the process of informing the mind. This is the potential value of Satsang, which may include a mind quieting meditation perhaps, but is itself an opportunity for contemplation. In our seagull satsang yesterday, Marie mentioned how often she gets clarity in our satsangs but then she gets back to the 'real world' and mind is too involved in what's going on. I told her in satsang she steps back into the witnessing mode and attendes to what's being discussed, and this quiets the mind and expands her awareness enough to gain these insights, and this is not meant to be a temporary state reserved for these discussions but rather a permanent mode of being. One does not need to leave the witnessing position as one IS the witness (or the witnessing, if you like). The doing that needs to be done does not generally require that you step into a thinking mode. You can see what you need to see from that witnessing position and the mind and body will take care of the rest. The only reason there are some exceptions to this is because we have designed a society based on the thinker, and sometimes it's necessary to hyperactivate the mind in order to conform. It is not a healthy way to function and is not necessary, for example, on this forum.
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Post by steven on Dec 7, 2014 16:04:53 GMT -5
One might as well ask: In deep sleep (what's that?) we all return to our source (sure?). How comes that there are so few sages around? If you focus your attention on one stone within a pile of stones, to such an extent that that the other stones are no longer in your conciousness, it does not make the other stones cease to exist. Also, if you then suddenly expand your awareness to become once again, concious of all the stones in the pile, this does not change the nature of the single stone.....although, the 'self' stone may now seem somewhat less special, and it's problems less imposing and consuming ;-) Haha, have you ever noticed that the longer you go without sleep, the bigger your little problems seem to become? If you go long enough without sleep, (or meditation) every minor annoyance, becomes a really big issue for you. This is due to the loss of perspective within an overly narrowed conciousness, that has remained so for too long, and needs rest. Sleep is not a return to a source that you never left, it's an un-narrowing of your conciousness.
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Post by laughter on Dec 7, 2014 17:57:34 GMT -5
Hello, yesterday I had a relaxed day and time to contemplate and I have become aware fo a question wich has been wavering around in the background (of what?). The best I can put it, is the title. One might during meditation (for example breath awareness) go into some altered state where thought activity diminishes. This is the purpose (really?) of the exercise, but then since there is little thought there is no possibility for the person (which one?) to refelect (why?) upon wich has been seen (by whom?). Therefore any insights (into what?) during this state (do they happen?)are lost. What to do now? Some of you folks might come to tell the japhy person, that he does not exist and therefore has not to be informed (How can I send a letter to an imaginary address?). But the japhy might be happy if anyone could answer on his level of understanding :-D. Thank you. Meditation is what you make of it. Would you like to know what I make of it?
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Post by silver on Dec 7, 2014 19:06:20 GMT -5
One might as well ask: In deep sleep (what's that?) we all return to our source (sure?). How comes that there are so few sages around? If you focus your attention on one stone within a pile of stones, to such an extent that that the other stones are no longer in your conciousness, it does not make the other stones cease to exist. Also, if you then suddenly expand your awareness to become once again, concious of all the stones in the pile, this does not change the nature of the single stone.....although, the 'self' stone may now seem somewhat less special, and it's problems less imposing and consuming ;-) Haha, have you ever noticed that the longer you go without sleep, the bigger your little problems seem to become? If you go long enough without sleep, (or meditation) every minor annoyance, becomes a really big issue for you. This is due to the loss of perspective within an overly narrowed conciousness, that has remained so for too long, and needs rest. Sleep is not a return to a source that you never left, it's an un-narrowing of your conciousness. That all sounds true to me.
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Post by Transcix on Dec 7, 2014 22:08:37 GMT -5
The best I can put it, is the title. One might during meditation (for example breath awareness) go into some altered state where thought activity diminishes. This is the purpose (really?) of the exercise, but then since there is little thought there is no possibility for the person (which one?) to refelect (why?) upon wich has been seen (by whom?). Therefore any insights (into what?) during this state (do they happen?)are lost. What to do now? The best course is to take all those excellent questions you wrote in parentheses regarding your meditative altered state, and investigate if and how those questions equally apply to your so-called 'sober' or 'non-meditative' state. The goal isn't to artificially dichotomize meditative states against normal states, the goal isn't to blindly insist that only the meditative state is true or real and that the normal state is false or unreal, to the contrary the goal is to investigate the common threads between both states.. as understanding becomes more integrated, then when transitioning from one state to another the lucidity of the experience remains more intact, more unbroken, and conclusions derived in one state increasingly pertain to all states.. When disparate subjective viewpoints are each experienced and considered in isolation, sheltered from the others, then they each respectively appear objective in their own right during the thick of their respective occurrences.. but when the walls between the viewpoints can be taken down then it forces truth to rise to the surface.. after all subjectivity and objectivity are two sides of the same coin..
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Post by steven on Dec 8, 2014 2:31:15 GMT -5
The best I can put it, is the title. One might during meditation (for example breath awareness) go into some altered state where thought activity diminishes. This is the purpose (really?) of the exercise, but then since there is little thought there is no possibility for the person (which one?) to refelect (why?) upon wich has been seen (by whom?). Therefore any insights (into what?) during this state (do they happen?)are lost. What to do now? The best course is to take all those excellent questions you wrote in parentheses regarding your meditative altered state, and investigate if and how those questions equally apply to your so-called 'sober' or 'non-meditative' state. The goal isn't to artificially dichotomize meditative states against normal states, the goal isn't to blindly insist that only the meditative state is true or real and that the normal state is false or unreal, to the contrary the goal is to investigate the common threads between both states.. as understanding becomes more integrated, then when transitioning from one state to another the lucidity of the experience remains more intact, more unbroken, and conclusions derived in one state increasingly pertain to all states.. When disparate subjective viewpoints are each experienced and considered in isolation, sheltered from the others, then they each respectively appear objective in their own right during the thick of their respective occurrences.. but when the walls between the viewpoints can be taken down then it forces truth to rise to the surface.. after all subjectivity and objectivity are two sides of the same coin.. Well written ;-)
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Post by japhy on Dec 8, 2014 10:26:10 GMT -5
One might as well ask: In deep sleep (what's that?) we all return to our source (sure?). How comes that there are so few sages around? If you focus your attention on one stone within a pile of stones, to such an extent that that the other stones are no longer in your conciousness, it does not make the other stones cease to exist. Also, if you then suddenly expand your awareness to become once again, concious of all the stones in the pile, this does not change the nature of the single stone.....although, the 'self' stone may now seem somewhat less special, and it's problems less imposing and consuming ;-) "Steve where is this f***ing pile of stones, I can't see it?" Japhy hysterically moves his hand through empty space.
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Post by steven on Dec 8, 2014 10:32:34 GMT -5
If you focus your attention on one stone within a pile of stones, to such an extent that that the other stones are no longer in your conciousness, it does not make the other stones cease to exist. Also, if you then suddenly expand your awareness to become once again, concious of all the stones in the pile, this does not change the nature of the single stone.....although, the 'self' stone may now seem somewhat less special, and it's problems less imposing and consuming ;-) "Steve where is this f***ing pile of stones, I can't see it?" Japhy hysterically moves his hand through empty space. Haha...: Close your eyes, and DON'T think of a pile of white stones with one red one!
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Post by japhy on Dec 8, 2014 12:19:04 GMT -5
"Steve where is this f***ing pile of stones, I can't see it?" Japhy hysterically moves his hand through empty space. Haha...: Close your eyes, and DON'T think of a pile of white stones with one red one! Japhy closes his eyes and smiles :-).
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