|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Nov 23, 2014 19:09:19 GMT -5
.I would say this is not inaccurate, but not exhaustive.* The early experience you describe, would have been self-remembering, then (the previous sentence noted*), but the memory of it, now, is not (that might be stating the obvious). Additionally, the memory of it, could be an indication that it was an experience of self-remembering, then. Yes, the memory of it now is not it. But present moment awareness of one's actual beingness, seen to be ever the same from then to now, is different than remembering now a past moment in time. For most people the "obscuring fog" never lifts, so as I said, self-remembering remains for them an unknown unknown. As far as self being the "background of every moment of our existence", that's a possibility that can be actualized (according to Gurdjieff), and would be the (minimal) state Gurdjieff referred to in the earlier quote concerning the time when he was hit by a (third) stray bullet. The witness is always in the background silently witnessing everything. What evidence is there to this? Without a witness to the event to recall it, there would be no recalling it. sdp: The first and last sentence do not necessarily correspond, because we don't remember everything that happens to us.You also raise a pertinent point that will help zd (and somewhat unscramble the information he received from the person studying Gurdjieff) here (and is also why I wanted to clarify the issue), as the quotes don't quite fit into his (zd's) paradigm, what self * are you remembering in self-remembering? You are self-remembered when you realize that you are, and have always been, the ever-present witness to every consecutive now moment you've experienced, from your very first until this very present one. You can call it what you care to, but this is not how Gurdjieff used the term self-remembering.
(Not saying there is or isn't an ever-present witness).
sdp
|
|
|
Post by justlikeyou on Nov 23, 2014 19:17:17 GMT -5
Yes, the memory of it now is not it. But present moment awareness of one's actual beingness, seen to be ever the same from then to now, is different than remembering now a past moment in time. The witness is always in the background silently witnessing everything. What evidence is there to this? Without a witness to the event to recall it, there would be no recalling it. sdp: The first and last sentence do not necessarily correspond, because we don't remember everything that happens to us.You are self-remembered when you realize that you are, and have always been, the ever-present witness to every consecutive now moment you've experienced, from your very first until this very present one. You can call it what you care to, but this is not how Gurdjieff used the term self-remembering.
(Not saying there is or isn't an ever-present witness).
sdpYes, as I said, I was speaking from this perspective. What is your perspective?
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Nov 24, 2014 11:34:32 GMT -5
.I would say this is not inaccurate, but not exhaustive.* The early experience you describe, would have been self-remembering, then (the previous sentence noted*), but the memory of it, now, is not (that might be stating the obvious). Additionally, the memory of it, could be an indication that it was an experience of self-remembering, then. Yes, the memory of it now is not it. But present moment awareness of one's actual beingness, seen to be ever the same from then to now, is different than remembering now a past moment in time. For most people the "obscuring fog" never lifts, so as I said, self-remembering remains for them an unknown unknown. As far as self being the "background of every moment of our existence", that's a possibility that can be actualized (according to Gurdjieff), and would be the (minimal) state Gurdjieff referred to in the earlier quote concerning the time when he was hit by a (third) stray bullet. The witness is always in the background silently witnessing everything. What evidence is there to this? Without a witness to the event to recall it, there would be no recalling it.You also raise a pertinent point that will help zd (and somewhat unscramble the information he received from the person studying Gurdjieff) here (and is also why I wanted to clarify the issue), as the quotes don't quite fit into his (zd's) paradigm, what self * are you remembering in self-remembering? You are self-remembered when you realize that you are, and have always been, the ever-present witness to every consecutive now moment you've experienced, from your very first until this very present one. If it is the case that there is the witness, in an ordinary state of consciousness we are not aware of the witness. So the point is to be able to be aware of the witness. Until this actually occurs, the witness, this something, from ~our~ perspective, is hypothetical....even imaginary. sdp
|
|
|
Post by justlikeyou on Nov 24, 2014 12:52:15 GMT -5
Yes, the memory of it now is not it. But present moment awareness of one's actual beingness, seen to be ever the same from then to now, is different than remembering now a past moment in time. The witness is always in the background silently witnessing everything. What evidence is there to this? Without a witness to the event to recall it, there would be no recalling it.You are self-remembered when you realize that you are, and have always been, the ever-present witness to every consecutive now moment you've experienced, from your very first until this very present one. If it is the case that there is the witness, in an ordinary state of consciousness we are not aware of the witness. So the point is to be able to be aware of the witness. Until this actually occurs, the witness, this something, from ~our~ perspective, is hypothetical....even imaginary. sdp Yes, when this is perceived directly, it is no longer theory or book learning.
|
|
|
Post by justlikeyou on Nov 24, 2014 19:16:18 GMT -5
Yes, the memory of it now is not it. But present moment awareness of one's actual beingness, seen to be ever the same from then to now, is different than remembering now a past moment in time. The witness is always in the background silently witnessing everything. What evidence is there to this? Without a witness to the event to recall it, there would be no recalling it.You are self-remembered when you realize that you are, and have always been, the ever-present witness to every consecutive now moment you've experienced, from your very first until this very present one. If it is the case that there is the witness, in an ordinary state of consciousness we are not aware of the witness. So the point is to be able to be aware of the witness. Until this actually occurs, the witness, this something, from ~our~ perspective, is hypothetical....even imaginary. sdp Read this Niz quote today and thought of you: "Dive deep within and find what is real in you. If someone tells you that you are the witness, the silent witness, it will mean nothing to you, unless you find the way to your own being. Find the way to your own being by giving up all questions except one: ‘Who am I?’ The only fact you are sure of is that you are. The “I Am” is certain. The “I am this” is not. Struggle to find out what you are in reality.
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Nov 25, 2014 10:46:54 GMT -5
If it is the case that there is the witness, in an ordinary state of consciousness we are not aware of the witness. So the point is to be able to be aware of the witness. Until this actually occurs, the witness, this something, from ~our~ perspective, is hypothetical....even imaginary. sdp Read this Niz quote today and thought of you: "Dive deep within and find what is real in you. If someone tells you that you are the witness, the silent witness, it will mean nothing to you, unless you find the way to your own being. Find the way to your own being by giving up all questions except one: ‘Who am I?’ The only fact you are sure of is that you are. The “I Am” is certain. The “I am this” is not. Struggle to find out what you are in reality. Thanks justlikeyou. The following is an image I've considered in the past. You have here all the "pieces" in place. the witness, "I Am", The "I am this" which I presume is our ordinary mind. Let's say that there are two trains on parallel tracks. The witness, train #1, is on one track traveling say at 90 MPH. Ordinary mind, train #2, is on the other track traveling in the same direction but can go only 60 MPH, as it is, no faster, not under any circumstances can ordinary mind go faster than 60 MPH. The question is, how do you find the way to your own being?...how do ~you~ move from train #2 to train #1? If something (else) in us, on train #2, can reach 90 MPH, matching the speed of train #1, ~it~ can jump right from train #2 to train #1. I'm not that familiar with Niz, but it sounds like the "I Am" can accomplish this. Gurdjieff said we are not born with a soul. Most other teachings or philosophies say either we have a soul or we don't have a soul. Gurdjieff said we are born as essence, a seed, which is merely the potential of developing into a soul. This makes nonduality correct, as far as it goes, no middle layer (the discussion from the Effortlessness thread). But in our analogy, developed essence is what can move from train #2 to train #1. sdp
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Nov 25, 2014 12:40:51 GMT -5
Read this Niz quote today and thought of you: "Dive deep within and find what is real in you. If someone tells you that you are the witness, the silent witness, it will mean nothing to you, unless you find the way to your own being. Find the way to your own being by giving up all questions except one: ‘Who am I?’ The only fact you are sure of is that you are. The “I Am” is certain. The “I am this” is not. Struggle to find out what you are in reality. Thanks justlikeyou. The following is an image I've considered in the past. You have here all the "pieces" in place. the witness, "I Am", The "I am this" which I presume is our ordinary mind. Let's say that there are two trains on parallel tracks. The witness, train #1, is on one track traveling say at 90 MPH. Ordinary mind, train #2, is on the other track traveling in the same direction but can go only 60 MPH, as it is, no faster, not under any circumstances can ordinary mind go faster than 60 MPH. The question is, how do you find the way to your own being?...how do ~you~ move from train #2 to train #1? If something (else) in us, on train #2, can reach 90 MPH, matching the speed of train #1, ~it~ can jump right from train #2 to train #1. I'm not that familiar with Niz, but it sounds like the "I Am" can accomplish this. Gurdjieff said we are not born with a soul. Most other teachings or philosophies say either we have a soul or we don't have a soul. Gurdjieff said we are born as essence, a seed, which is merely the potential of developing into a soul. This makes nonduality correct, as far as it goes, no middle layer (the discussion from the Effortlessness thread). But in our analogy, developed essence is what can move from train #2 to train #1. sdp When thinking stops, it becomes obvious "what we are in reality," but as soon as there is a moment of silence, the mind tries to jump back in and grasp this "what we are in reality." Unfortunately, it can't be grasped; it can only be lived. With sufficient attentiveness and silence, the illusion of separateness ultimately drops away, and we then realize, and KNOW, "what we are in reality." If a sage tells someone, "You are the cosmos, the whole shebang," this statement cannot be understood as long as there is the thought-structure of separateness. This thought structure must collapse so that only "what is" remains. When "what is" is all that's left, it becomes obvious that" what one is in reality" is "what is." When self-realization occurs, it becomes obvious that there are not two, and that all past ideas like "soul," essence," "development," "attainment," "movement from one state to another," "personhood," etc. were ideas, only. The truth is much like the title of Adya's book--"emptiness dancing." When the truth is seen, all that's left for us to do is........dance!
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Nov 25, 2014 15:52:46 GMT -5
Read this Niz quote today and thought of you: "Dive deep within and find what is real in you. If someone tells you that you are the witness, the silent witness, it will mean nothing to you, unless you find the way to your own being. Find the way to your own being by giving up all questions except one: ‘Who am I?’ The only fact you are sure of is that you are. The “I Am” is certain. The “I am this” is not. Struggle to find out what you are in reality. Thanks justlikeyou. The following is an image I've considered in the past. You have here all the "pieces" in place. the witness, "I Am", The "I am this" which I presume is our ordinary mind. Let's say that there are two trains on parallel tracks. The witness, train #1, is on one track traveling say at 90 MPH. Ordinary mind, train #2, is on the other track traveling in the same direction but can go only 60 MPH, as it is, no faster, not under any circumstances can ordinary mind go faster than 60 MPH. The question is, how do you find the way to your own being?...how do ~you~ move from train #2 to train #1? If something (else) in us, on train #2, can reach 90 MPH, matching the speed of train #1, ~it~ can jump right from train #2 to train #1. I'm not that familiar with Niz, but it sounds like the "I Am" can accomplish this. Gurdjieff said we are not born with a soul. Most other teachings or philosophies say either we have a soul or we don't have a soul. Gurdjieff said we are born as essence, a seed, which is merely the potential of developing into a soul. This makes nonduality correct, as far as it goes, no middle layer (the discussion from the Effortlessness thread). But in our analogy, developed essence is what can move from train #2 to train #1. sdp What happens if train #2 just derails?
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Nov 25, 2014 17:18:45 GMT -5
Thanks justlikeyou. The following is an image I've considered in the past. You have here all the "pieces" in place. the witness, "I Am", The "I am this" which I presume is our ordinary mind. Let's say that there are two trains on parallel tracks. The witness, train #1, is on one track traveling say at 90 MPH. Ordinary mind, train #2, is on the other track traveling in the same direction but can go only 60 MPH, as it is, no faster, not under any circumstances can ordinary mind go faster than 60 MPH. The question is, how do you find the way to your own being?...how do ~you~ move from train #2 to train #1? If something (else) in us, on train #2, can reach 90 MPH, matching the speed of train #1, ~it~ can jump right from train #2 to train #1. I'm not that familiar with Niz, but it sounds like the "I Am" can accomplish this. Gurdjieff said we are not born with a soul. Most other teachings or philosophies say either we have a soul or we don't have a soul. Gurdjieff said we are born as essence, a seed, which is merely the potential of developing into a soul. This makes nonduality correct, as far as it goes, no middle layer (the discussion from the Effortlessness thread). But in our analogy, developed essence is what can move from train #2 to train #1. sdp What happens if train #2 just derails? Happens all the time..........
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Nov 25, 2014 21:06:02 GMT -5
What happens if train #2 just derails? Happens all the time.......... I think it does happen, though not all the time. My point is that rather than turbocharging train #2, train #2 can be seen for what it is, and it can be realized train #1 is what we have always been. We don't need to catch up to it and hop aboard. We're already aboard.
|
|
|
Post by earnest on Nov 25, 2014 21:27:04 GMT -5
Happens all the time.......... I think it does happen, though not all the time. My point is that rather than turbocharging train #2, train #2 can be seen for what it is, and it can be realized train #1 is what we have always been. We don't need to catch up to it and hop aboard. We're already aboard. Train #1 has the best whistle,. Like the old type on a steam engine, long and low. Makes my heart ache just thinking about it.
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Nov 25, 2014 21:27:58 GMT -5
Happens all the time.......... I think it does happen, though not all the time. My point is that rather than turbocharging train #2, train #2 can be seen for what it is, and it can be realized train #1 is what we have always been. We don't need to catch up to it and hop aboard. We're already aboard. No........we're.........not........ That's the point I was trying to make. We're not, unless we are, that is, unless it's actualized. We can imagine we are for a million years.......it means nothing.
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Nov 25, 2014 21:37:03 GMT -5
Just Dance and the world will dance with you, b!tch about the way others dance and the world dances while you b!tch.. Tzu.......when somebody b!tches at you, just know that they're not free, they're still entangled and cannot not-b!tch. It means absolutely nothing.
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Nov 25, 2014 22:05:59 GMT -5
I think it does happen, though not all the time. My point is that rather than turbocharging train #2, train #2 can be seen for what it is, and it can be realized train #1 is what we have always been. We don't need to catch up to it and hop aboard. We're already aboard. Train #1 has the best whistle,. Like the old type on a steam engine, long and low. Makes my heart ache just thinking about it. You mean like this?
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Nov 25, 2014 22:14:28 GMT -5
I think it does happen, though not all the time. My point is that rather than turbocharging train #2, train #2 can be seen for what it is, and it can be realized train #1 is what we have always been. We don't need to catch up to it and hop aboard. We're already aboard. No........we're.........not........ That's the point I was trying to make. We're not, unless we are, that is, unless it's actualized. We can imagine we are for a million years.......it means nothing. You can imagine you're not, which is the point I'm trying to make. The witness is what you always are and have always been. You cannot be what you are witnessing. You don't need to become the witness. How can you not already be that which is witnessing, right here, right now? How would that be possible? Are you witnessing or are you not? It's not rocket science unless you make it so.
|
|