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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 18:41:10 GMT -5
What is the thorn made from? Memories, beliefs, incessant thoughts - all imagination. Good memories? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 18:45:48 GMT -5
There are hundreds of different forms of meditation. Really what I was talking about there was the self-inquiry arm of Vipassana. Meditation that's purely resting in awareness is cool too. My original point was that for a beginning meditator who's steeped in unconsciousness and strongly identified with thoughts, effort is required to begin seeing even slightly clearer. Part of that effort often has to do with resisting the urge to turn away from what makes us uncomfortable. Another part is resisting the urge to take up residence in Blissville. There are quite a few pitfalls to be aware of and they may require effort. For those who don't want to call that effort, fine. I get the feeling, though, that you're (collective you) adding 'will power' and 'battle' and all sorts of things to the word effort. To me, effort is just a description of that movement that feels contrary to conditioning. Here is part of the story of how and why I first picked up meditation: "When I began meditating in 2006 I did so because I was locked into living in a house with a witch of a woman, who could control my emotions, and make me angry and upset with her incessant nonsensical bit*hing and badgering. She could make me want to knock her out and I found that disturbing. Her regular "fits" of rage were so bad that I had to put a lock on the inside of my bedroom door to keep her out. At first I could not resist arguing angrily with her, even through a closed door. Later I resorted to wearing headphones while watching TV in my bedroom to tune out her haranguing until she wore herself out and went to sleep in her room. But it was the painful awareness of not being able to deal with this situation properly that eventually made me realize that until I got control of myself, these angry thoughts and emotions, I could never hope to find peace. So one day I began to meditate with the idea that I must learn the art of separating from my thoughts and emotions, and find the means to gain control over my reactions. Though I did not like the lack of emotional control, the awareness of that lack would eventually morph into a longing for the ability to remain unmoved in the face of torment. So I resolved to sit every morning for 20 or 30 minutes observing my mind stuff. After a while noticed a growth in increasing objectivity to things inside and out. In some ways it seemed like putting on a kind of armour in preparation to deal with whatever awaited me "out there" in the world beyond my waking meditation and bedroom door. I persisted in my meditation and one day began to notice a clearly increasing immunity to this womans angry, jealous, possessive and hateful words and antics.. Gradually but inexorably she disturbed me less and less as I learned to stop resenting her and began to use, almost look forward to, her antics as daily practice in remaining quietly detached. My progress did not escape her notice. I continued to get better at enduring her outlandishness calmly and soon that `calm' had unexpected results. First, in spite of herself, I saw that she found it increasingly difficult to react badly for long...her bouts of rage became less intense, and less long lasting. She would retreat to her room faster, more often and for longer periods of time, leaving me with more and more peace. I could see that she was discovering the feedback of "pain and fear" that emotional non-reaction can wreak, and it wasn't long before she was compelled, by her own behest, to move out of my home and thus resolving the issue for me without effort on my part." I do hope that you have since thanked her. |
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Post by quinn on Aug 13, 2014 18:48:54 GMT -5
Memories, beliefs, incessant thoughts - all imagination. Good memories? Depends. If we're still talking about sitting with uncomfortable feelings it's probably bad memories. The other side of that coin is not grasping at good feelings - the grasping gives a different kind of pain. That would tend to be from good memories or beliefs. Depends on the person, though. I know someone who gets very rattled when things are going well. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Aug 13, 2014 18:51:07 GMT -5
Here is part of the story of how and why I first picked up meditation: "When I began meditating in 2006 I did so because I was locked into living in a house with a witch of a woman, who could control my emotions, and make me angry and upset with her incessant nonsensical bit*hing and badgering. She could make me want to knock her out and I found that disturbing. Her regular "fits" of rage were so bad that I had to put a lock on the inside of my bedroom door to keep her out. At first I could not resist arguing angrily with her, even through a closed door. Later I resorted to wearing headphones while watching TV in my bedroom to tune out her haranguing until she wore herself out and went to sleep in her room. But it was the painful awareness of not being able to deal with this situation properly that eventually made me realize that until I got control of myself, these angry thoughts and emotions, I could never hope to find peace. So one day I began to meditate with the idea that I must learn the art of separating from my thoughts and emotions, and find the means to gain control over my reactions. Though I did not like the lack of emotional control, the awareness of that lack would eventually morph into a longing for the ability to remain unmoved in the face of torment. So I resolved to sit every morning for 20 or 30 minutes observing my mind stuff. After a while noticed a growth in increasing objectivity to things inside and out. In some ways it seemed like putting on a kind of armour in preparation to deal with whatever awaited me "out there" in the world beyond my waking meditation and bedroom door. I persisted in my meditation and one day began to notice a clearly increasing immunity to this womans angry, jealous, possessive and hateful words and antics.. Gradually but inexorably she disturbed me less and less as I learned to stop resenting her and began to use, almost look forward to, her antics as daily practice in remaining quietly detached. My progress did not escape her notice. I continued to get better at enduring her outlandishness calmly and soon that `calm' had unexpected results. First, in spite of herself, I saw that she found it increasingly difficult to react badly for long...her bouts of rage became less intense, and less long lasting. She would retreat to her room faster, more often and for longer periods of time, leaving me with more and more peace. I could see that she was discovering the feedback of "pain and fear" that emotional non-reaction can wreak, and it wasn't long before she was compelled, by her own behest, to move out of my home and thus resolving the issue for me without effort on my part." I do hope that you have since thanked her. And apologized for my immaturity. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 18:56:23 GMT -5
Depends. If we're still talking about sitting with uncomfortable feelings it's probably bad memories. The other side of that coin is not grasping at good feelings - the grasping gives a different kind of pain. That would tend to be from good memories or beliefs. Depends on the person, though. I know someone who gets very rattled when things are going well. We're talking about whatever you want. You know I'll keep digging, even if it's through rock.  Yeah the getting rattled when things are going well is a good display of feeling scared, wouldn't you say? Many of us are given the program that they are going to f*ck it up, so the rattle is the non-acceptance that duality is going to play it's hand. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 18:57:29 GMT -5
I do hope that you have since thanked her. And apologized for my immaturity. From the learning curve perspective, she played her role for you impeccably. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Aug 13, 2014 19:05:30 GMT -5
And apologized for my immaturity. From the learning curve perspective, she played her role for you impeccably. No question about it. |
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Post by quinn on Aug 13, 2014 19:22:04 GMT -5
Depends. If we're still talking about sitting with uncomfortable feelings it's probably bad memories. The other side of that coin is not grasping at good feelings - the grasping gives a different kind of pain. That would tend to be from good memories or beliefs. Depends on the person, though. I know someone who gets very rattled when things are going well. We're talking about whatever you want. You know I'll keep digging, even if it's through rock. Yeah the getting rattled when things are going well is a good display of feeling scared, wouldn't you say? Many of us are given the program that they are going to f*ck it up, so the rattle is the non-acceptance that duality is going to play it's hand. Yes, you're a very good digger. And I appreciate it.  And yes to scared. For sure. Fear is at the root of avoiding, grasping and all the rest. Could be about a 'you'll f*ck it up' program or maybe a superstition (if I'm happy, God will get jealous and smite me) or could be the guilt program. But I think you're right, it comes down to the fear that the sh!t must be about to hit the fan. Good to see this stuff and good to feel the constricting pain generated by that fear. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 19:35:18 GMT -5
We're talking about whatever you want. You know I'll keep digging, even if it's through rock. Yeah the getting rattled when things are going well is a good display of feeling scared, wouldn't you say? Many of us are given the program that they are going to f*ck it up, so the rattle is the non-acceptance that duality is going to play it's hand. Yes, you're a very good digger. And I appreciate it. And yes to scared. For sure. Fear is at the root of avoiding, grasping and all the rest. Could be about a 'you'll f*ck it up' program or maybe a superstition (if I'm happy, God will get jealous and smite me) or could be the guilt program. But I think you're right, it comes down to the fear that the sh!t must be about to hit the fan. Good to see this stuff and good to feel the constricting pain generated by that fear. Thank you. It could be any of those 3, although the superstitious one, really just hit my 'does not compute' button. I have no capacity to understand such a program, and funnily enough I'm not sorry about that I understand that you'll be on your way to an Adya get together soon, and I was reading some of his chapters the other week. So if the chance is opened, then raise it with him as well. He'll have a much better rehearsed presentation of these layers of fear and loss of control.  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 19:39:51 GMT -5
I think I have experienced neutrality by doing the Harding experiments. It seems like the substratum of consciousness, a silent presence underlying mental activity. I can doubt many things, but it is difficult to doubt this presence, which is simultaneously an absence. Give it your best shot. No. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 13, 2014 19:42:15 GMT -5
Here is part of the story of how and why I first picked up meditation: "When I began meditating in 2006 I did so because I was locked into living in a house with a witch of a woman, who could control my emotions, and make me angry and upset with her incessant nonsensical bit*hing and badgering. She could make me want to knock her out and I found that disturbing. Her regular "fits" of rage were so bad that I had to put a lock on the inside of my bedroom door to keep her out. At first I could not resist arguing angrily with her, even through a closed door. Later I resorted to wearing headphones while watching TV in my bedroom to tune out her haranguing until she wore herself out and went to sleep in her room. But it was the painful awareness of not being able to deal with this situation properly that eventually made me realize that until I got control of myself, these angry thoughts and emotions, I could never hope to find peace. So one day I began to meditate with the idea that I must learn the art of separating from my thoughts and emotions, and find the means to gain control over my reactions. Though I did not like the lack of emotional control, the awareness of that lack would eventually morph into a longing for the ability to remain unmoved in the face of torment. So I resolved to sit every morning for 20 or 30 minutes observing my mind stuff. After a while noticed a growth in increasing objectivity to things inside and out. In some ways it seemed like putting on a kind of armour in preparation to deal with whatever awaited me "out there" in the world beyond my waking meditation and bedroom door. I persisted in my meditation and one day began to notice a clearly increasing immunity to this womans angry, jealous, possessive and hateful words and antics.. Gradually but inexorably she disturbed me less and less as I learned to stop resenting her and began to use, almost look forward to, her antics as daily practice in remaining quietly detached. My progress did not escape her notice. I continued to get better at enduring her outlandishness calmly and soon that `calm' had unexpected results. First, in spite of herself, I saw that she found it increasingly difficult to react badly for long...her bouts of rage became less intense, and less long lasting. She would retreat to her room faster, more often and for longer periods of time, leaving me with more and more peace. I could see that she was discovering the feedback of "pain and fear" that emotional non-reaction can wreak, and it wasn't long before she was compelled, by her own behest, to move out of my home and thus resolving the issue for me without effort on my part." I do hope that you have since thanked her. justlikeyou, I guess you have heard of Xanthippe, the wife of Socrates? Socrates would have been proud. sdp |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 19:42:36 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 19:44:43 GMT -5
I do hope that you have since thanked her. justlikeyou, I guess you have heard of Xanthippe, the wife of Socrates? Socrates would have been proud. sdp And what book was she in? |
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Post by laughter on Aug 13, 2014 19:48:59 GMT -5
All we can ever really write about for sure on this is our own experience and from reading what you've wrote in the past few years it seems that ours is similar. Mine was of a sudden and massive reduction in the time and intensity spent thinking when the self-referential thoughts were seen for what they are, which is, that they literally refer to nothing. Some of that came back over time but it's never been the same since in terms of the way that it's taken, which is to say, not all that seriously when self-reference is noticed, and of course, I can't be conscious of what I'm unconscious of. The intensity and time spent thinking also has never returned back to where it was before "the event". That's a good example of what I was referring to about conditioning changing through understanding rather than practice. That brings up another key distinction. Thought, or thinking, as such, isn't a problem. The problem is self reference, which may constitute the vast majority of thought for many, but only because of the out of proportion self interest.  I'll say! Even if in any given moment a thought wasn't explicitly self-referential, it was more than likely part of some story or scheme or worry or memory-driven loop that had self-reference as the basis. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 19:50:38 GMT -5
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I'll say! Even if in any given moment a thought wasn't explicitly self-referential, it was more than likely part of some story or scheme or worry or memory-driven loop that had self-reference as the basis.