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Post by enigma on Aug 12, 2014 10:42:24 GMT -5
So talking about volition is TMT philosophizing but "everything arises in dependence upon multiple causes and conditions; nothing exists as a singular, independent entity" is not? huh? I'd put them in the same ballpark. Both discussions of dependent origination and volition are philosophizing. No problem either. Just abstraction, which can be fun and helpful. 'Effort' and 'fork' on the other hand seem to be less abstract. Okay. |
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Post by runstill on Aug 12, 2014 10:44:55 GMT -5
Willingness, sincerity, curiosity, longing to be free of suffering. That sort of thingy. I know of a guy who was a murderous fanatic when he was struck out of the blue with Reality. And although I hear and agree with your sentiments as a general principle, I also say that any suggestion of absolute requirements or rules is putting limitation on the Unlimited. And interesting parable from the bible comes to mind: Matthew 20: 1-7 “For the kingdom of Heaven is like a farmer going out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. He agreed with them on a wage of a silver coin a day and sent them to work. About nine o’clock he went and saw some others standing about in the market-place with nothing to do. ‘You go to the vineyard too,” he said to them, ‘and I will pay you a fair wage.’ And off they went. At about mid-day and again at about three o’clock in the afternoon he went and did the same thing. Then about five o’clock he went out and found some others standing about. ‘Why are you standing about here all day doing nothing?’ he asked them. ‘Because no one has employed us,’ they replied. ‘You go off into the vineyard as well, then,’ he said. 8-12 “When evening came the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last and ending with the first.’ So those who were engaged at five o’clock came up and each man received a silver coin. But when the first to be employed came they reckoned they would get more, but they also received a silver coin a man. As they took their money they grumbled at the farmer and said, ‘These last fellows have only put in one hour’s work and you’ve treated them exactly the same as us who have gone through all the hard work and heat of the day!’ 13-15 “But he replied to one of them, ‘My friend, I’m not being unjust to you. Wasn’t our agreement for a silver coin a day? Take your money and go home. It is my wish to give the latecomers as much as I give you. May I not do what I like with what belongs to me? Must you be jealous because I am generous?’ Oh boy is he going to hear from the labor commissioner......  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2014 10:45:49 GMT -5
Some of my daydreams are better than Gilligan's Island and more elaborate than Expendables 3. Do you relate daydreams to unconsciousness? Yes. It's that type of thinking that happens without concurrently noticing it. There is an experience like a punctuation mark at the end of a daydream that concludes 'daydreaming' or something. It's the end of a state of mind where attending the actual is absent. Similarly, blathering on with someone fully ensconced in a role vis a vis their role can also be unconscious in this way. |
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Post by enigma on Aug 12, 2014 10:48:47 GMT -5
Willingness, sincerity, curiosity, longing to be free of suffering. That sort of thingy. I know of a guy who was a murderous fanatic when he was struck out of the blue with Reality. And although I hear and agree with your sentiments as a general principle, I also say that any suggestion of absolute requirements or rules is putting limitation on the Unlimited. It wouldn't surprise me if the murderous fanatic suffered and wanted to be free of it. I don't put limits on the unlimited. What I limit is the person, which is literally an expression of limitation. God isn't out there creating miracles for you. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Aug 12, 2014 10:55:07 GMT -5
I know of a guy who was a murderous fanatic when he was struck out of the blue with Reality. And although I hear and agree with your sentiments as a general principle, I also say that any suggestion of absolute requirements or rules is putting limitation on the Unlimited. It wouldn't surprise me if the murderous fanatic suffered and wanted to be free of it. I don't put limits on the unlimited. What I limit is the person, which is literally an expression of limitation. God isn't out there creating miracles for you. I wasn't speaking of the person but as God experiencing unlimited experiences for God. |
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Post by enigma on Aug 12, 2014 10:55:15 GMT -5
Do you relate daydreams to unconsciousness? Yes. It's that type of thinking that happens without concurrently noticing it. There is an experience like a punctuation mark at the end of a daydream that concludes 'daydreaming' or something. It's the end of a state of mind where attending the actual is absent. Similarly, blathering on with someone fully ensconced in a role vis a vis their role can also be unconscious in this way. Okay. Not at all what I mean by unconscious. Let's take arbitrary and unconscious off our list of discussion topics. |
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Post by enigma on Aug 12, 2014 10:57:45 GMT -5
It wouldn't surprise me if the murderous fanatic suffered and wanted to be free of it. I don't put limits on the unlimited. What I limit is the person, which is literally an expression of limitation. God isn't out there creating miracles for you. I wasn't speaking of the person but as God experiencing unlimited experiences for God. By definition, experience is the experience of limitation. |
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Post by quinn on Aug 12, 2014 11:08:05 GMT -5
Ok. But in that sense, every word we use is arbitrary. Clear communication becomes impossible (which probably explains the length of the effort conversation - heh heh). There is effort at first in sitting down to meditate. It's a handy dandy word to describe what feels like swimming upstream against the currents of conditioned behaviors (mostly the behavior of turning away from uncomfortable feelings, but also the tantrum of "I'm not doing anything!"). In my experience, meditation practice has, on its own, transformed into a spontaneous effortless happening. But it began with effort, as does anything that tries to move against conditioning. That's the thing, nothing moves against conditioning. The appearance that there is something moving against the current of conditioning is just part of the story. Putting thy buttucks on a zafu requires a whole chaos of factors. Sitting there for 20 minutes despite knee pain and feet falling asleep and nagging to-do lists, rehashing arguments, ogling another cushion sitter is all part of the conditioning, not the least of which is a pavlovian training to wait for the final chime. Wait...nothing moves against conditioning? It sounds like you just said a practice like this is new conditioning moving against old conditioning. But anyway, let's say I become conditioned to bark when food is offered me and then I'm introduced to the concept (new conditioning) that barking is unnecessary and I can stop. So for awhile, I have to effortfully remind myself not to bark and eventually the behavior drops away. Yes, conditioning and conditioning (and effort), but the net effect is a return to non-conditioning. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Aug 12, 2014 11:09:04 GMT -5
I wasn't speaking of the person but as God experiencing unlimited experiences for God. By definition, experience is the experience of limitation. Is there a limit on the number of individuated expressions that I should know about? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2014 11:34:17 GMT -5
Yes. It's that type of thinking that happens without concurrently noticing it. There is an experience like a punctuation mark at the end of a daydream that concludes 'daydreaming' or something. It's the end of a state of mind where attending the actual is absent. Similarly, blathering on with someone fully ensconced in a role vis a vis their role can also be unconscious in this way. Okay. Not at all what I mean by unconscious. Let's take arbitrary and unconscious off our list of discussion topics. well I'll let you keep track of that list |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2014 11:46:15 GMT -5
That's the thing, nothing moves against conditioning. The appearance that there is something moving against the current of conditioning is just part of the story. Putting thy buttucks on a zafu requires a whole chaos of factors. Sitting there for 20 minutes despite knee pain and feet falling asleep and nagging to-do lists, rehashing arguments, ogling another cushion sitter is all part of the conditioning, not the least of which is a pavlovian training to wait for the final chime. Wait...nothing moves against conditioning? It sounds like you just said a practice like this is new conditioning moving against old conditioning. But anyway, let's say I become conditioned to bark when food is offered me and then I'm introduced to the concept (new conditioning) that barking is unnecessary and I can stop. So for awhile, I have to effortfully remind myself not to bark and eventually the behavior drops away. Yes, conditioning and conditioning (and effort), but the net effect is a return to non-conditioning. But I don't really buy the non-conditioned state there. It'd be hard for anybody to survive without conditioning. It's all conditioning. One could describe different currents, eddies and backwaters, but eventually it's all going downstream. Being non-realized and yet curious about what realization is, I hold open the possibility that there is something other than conditioning. I think Adyashanti said something about resting in pure being or Truth functions to burn away conditioning. And nirvana is a cessation of sorts, as I understand it. I imagine it as an abiding noticing of the manifestation resulting from conditioning without the energy being put in that would create more conditioning. In this way, being absorbed in the story narrating conditioning creates more conditioning. It's self-perpetuating. Whereas noticing how conditioning is manifested denies that positive feedback loop. Just rambling. To my daughter I'd say that sitting on the cushion for a few minutes a day paying attention to the details and nuances of breathing is well worth the effort. To me I'd say WTF you doing butthead? |
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Post by enigma on Aug 12, 2014 12:25:07 GMT -5
That's the thing, nothing moves against conditioning. The appearance that there is something moving against the current of conditioning is just part of the story. Putting thy buttucks on a zafu requires a whole chaos of factors. Sitting there for 20 minutes despite knee pain and feet falling asleep and nagging to-do lists, rehashing arguments, ogling another cushion sitter is all part of the conditioning, not the least of which is a pavlovian training to wait for the final chime. But anyway, let's say I become conditioned to bark when food is offered me and then I'm introduced to the concept (new conditioning) that barking is unnecessary and I can stop. So for awhile, I have to effortfully remind myself not to bark and eventually the behavior drops away. Yes, conditioning and conditioning (and effort), but the net effect is a return to non-conditioning. I think what he's saying is that you're conditioned to "move against conditioned behaviors" (if you do), so really the meditating is more conditioning. |
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Post by laughter on Aug 12, 2014 13:11:38 GMT -5
Well, unconsciousness isn't entertaining, but escape, yes. Drugs and alcohol serve the same purpose. Some of my daydreams are better than Gilligan's Island and more elaborate than Expendables 3. Not to mention that unconsciousness is source of much absurdity, lots of it slapstick! |
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Post by zendancer on Aug 12, 2014 13:12:53 GMT -5
Here are some interesting dialogues with Bankei (1622-1693):
A farmer: I was born with a very short temper, so I find it difficult to remain in the Unborn.
Bankei: Since the unborn Buddha-mind is something you and everyone else is born with, there's no way you can go about attaining it now for the first time. Just attend to your farmwork and have no other thoughts. That's the working of the unborn mind. You can swing your hoe while you're angry, too, for that matter. But in that case, since anger is an evil that links you to hell, your work becomes hard and onerous. When you hoe with a mind unclouded by anger and such things, the work is easy and pleasant.
Layman: There's no letup to the thoughts that come into my mind. I find it impossible to stay in the Unborn.
Bankei: Although you arrived in the world with nothing but the unborn Buddha-mind, you fell into your present deluded ways as you were growing up, by watching and listening to other people in their delusion. You picked all this up gradually, over a long period of time, habituating your mind to it, until now your deluded mind has taken over completely and works its delusion unchecked. But none of your deluded thoughts was inborn. They weren't there from the start. They cease to exist in a mind that's affirming the Unborn......If you just let illusory thoughts come and go, and don't put them to work or try to avoid them, then one day you'll find that they've vanished completely into the unborn mind.
Monk: I have great difficulty subduing all the desires and deluded thoughts from my mind.
Bankei: The idea to subdue deluded thoughts is a deluded thought itself. Leave all such thoughts behind.
Part of a Bankei talk: ....when you look at things, you're able to see and distinguish them all at once. And as you are doing that, if a bird sings or a bell tolls, or other noises occur, you hear and recognize each of them too, even though you haven't given rise to a single thought to do so. Everything in your life, from morning until night, proceeds in this same way, without your having to depend upon thought or reflection. But most people are unaware of that; they think everything is a result of their deliberation and discrimination. That's a great mistake.
Anyone who tries to become enlightened thereby falls out of the Buddha-mind and into secondary matters. You are Buddhas to begin with. There's no way for you to become Buddhas now for the first time. Within this original mind, there isn't even a trace of illusion. When you clench your fists and run about, for example, that's the Unborn. If you harbor the least notion to become better than you are or the slightest inclination to seek something, you turn your back on the unborn.
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Post by laughter on Aug 12, 2014 13:17:04 GMT -5
So talking about volition is TMT philosophizing but "everything arises in dependence upon multiple causes and conditions; nothing exists as a singular, independent entity" is not? huh? I'd put them in the same ballpark. Both discussions of dependent origination and volition are philosophizing. No problem either. Just abstraction, which can be fun and helpful. 'Effort' and 'fork' on the other hand seem to be less abstract. " ? looks are deceptive, but distinctions are real ?" There's not one word that doesn't embody an abstraction and in the final analysis, the degree of removal from what is abstracted isn't important, one way or the other. The prescriptions all point away from all abstraction. |
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