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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2014 13:53:09 GMT -5
I guess you're looking at events and not creation? Cuz creation has a remarkable and complex order. There's a false separation between creation and the events that occur involving creation. They are the same. Creation and perception are the same. That order, however, is the mind making meaning of appearances. Does that imply that there is no inherent meaning "out there"?
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Post by laughter on Jun 23, 2014 17:20:29 GMT -5
That order, however, is the mind making meaning of appearances. Does that imply that there is no inherent meaning "out there"? No direct intellectual meaning as it applies to self-inquiry, no. What appears to us allows us only to infer. Think Plato's cave. That there is both order and disorder is what we can experience. The meaning of it, the "truth" of it, is in the living, in the moment, and no ideas, no description, can ever really capture that.
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Post by enigma on Jun 23, 2014 19:09:00 GMT -5
I guess you're looking at events and not creation? Cuz creation has a remarkable and complex order. There's a false separation between creation and the events that occur involving creation. They are the same. Creation and perception are the same. That order, however, is the mind making meaning of appearances. Yes, the point was that mind is inseparable from creation, so there is order in creation through mind.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2014 0:07:16 GMT -5
the child is love and as an adult we come to see that is true if we are looking to shed the untruths about what we think we might be. Thus, as an adult we come to know love as Oneself which is often appreciated as presence by onlookers. My guess is that returning home is simply shedding years of conditioning and beliefs, that which the mind collects, thinking thought is precious and might be oneday usefull (in the future) if one is going to enter into philosophical conversations or defend themselves from accusations. Here, take this pig and be happy. Thank you. But don't you think they're better cooked? not if you are a moslem.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jun 24, 2014 6:23:56 GMT -5
Thank you. But don't you think they're better cooked? not if you are a moslem. Not to worry. Labels don't fit through the Pearly Gates. They gots to be left outside.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 24, 2014 9:12:42 GMT -5
That order, however, is the mind making meaning of appearances. Does that imply that there is no inherent meaning "out there"? Correct. There is intellectual meaning and direct meaning. Intellectual meaning is the mind's attempt to project its understanding of what's going on. Direct meaning, as Laughter noted, is "what is" as it is. What is the meaning of a laugh? *Ha ha!* What is the meaning of a cup of coffee? *slurp slurp." What is the meaning of life? Writing these words on a computer. If you look for any meaning beyond "what is," you'll be looking for something that only exists in and is projected by mind All intellectual meaning is imaginary.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jun 24, 2014 13:37:43 GMT -5
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Post by laughter on Jun 24, 2014 15:53:44 GMT -5
The current consensus on deep human history as told by archeology, anthropology and genetics tells an interesting story with a few likely points where the changing environment caused bottlenecks in the population. These periods of stress drove the process of evolution and it was likely one of these turning points -- volcanic eruptions, droughts in East Africa, ice-age transitions and several other suspects -- at which the sense of separate self emerged. When the environment is trying to kill you, it's a survival advantage to go to war with it. That worked quite well for us as long as the planet was vast compared to the species. We kept multiplying as other species that had specialized went extinct. Eventually, the success of the strategy had to lead to it's end, as the war was never not with ourselves.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2014 23:06:47 GMT -5
Not to worry. Labels don't fit through the Pearly Gates. They gots to be left outside. like the thought police.
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Post by enigma on Jun 25, 2014 1:28:06 GMT -5
The current consensus on deep human history as told by archeology, anthropology and genetics tells an interesting story with a few likely points where the changing environment caused bottlenecks in the population. These periods of stress drove the process of evolution and it was likely one of these turning points -- volcanic eruptions, droughts in East Africa, ice-age transitions and several other suspects -- at which the sense of separate self emerged. When the environment is trying to kill you, it's a survival advantage to go to war with it. That worked quite well for us as long as the planet was vast compared to the species. We kept multiplying as other species that had specialized went extinct. Eventually, the success of the strategy had to lead to it's end, as the war was never not with ourselves. From my perspective, ego arose along with self awareness, in a biological sense. Self identification is the natural outcome of self awareness, and that's simply the Pandoras box found along the path of evolution of all species. In that way, the human animal is no different than any other, just more evolved. I agree with Tolle that this went along with the development of language and active thinking, which puts the onset of ego at a fairly primitive level of man's evolution. I think Tolle is guessing about the golden age where everybody got along just fine because you would likely not say primitive, instinctual man lived in such a 'golden age' way. Odds are they lived like the primitive animals they were. Also, if memory serves, the golden age comes around every 15,000 years or so, and it's safe to say man was thinking up a storm 15,000 years ago and hasn't evolved much since.
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Post by laughter on Jun 25, 2014 1:43:33 GMT -5
The current consensus on deep human history as told by archeology, anthropology and genetics tells an interesting story with a few likely points where the changing environment caused bottlenecks in the population. These periods of stress drove the process of evolution and it was likely one of these turning points -- volcanic eruptions, droughts in East Africa, ice-age transitions and several other suspects -- at which the sense of separate self emerged. When the environment is trying to kill you, it's a survival advantage to go to war with it. That worked quite well for us as long as the planet was vast compared to the species. We kept multiplying as other species that had specialized went extinct. Eventually, the success of the strategy had to lead to it's end, as the war was never not with ourselves. From my perspective, ego arose along with self awareness, in a biological sense. Self identification is the natural outcome of self awareness, and that's simply the Pandoras box found along the path of evolution of all species. In that way, the human animal is no different than any other, just more evolved. I agree with Tolle that this went along with the development of language and active thinking, which puts the onset of ego at a fairly primitive level of man's evolution. I think Tolle is guessing about the golden age where everybody got along just fine because you would likely not say primitive, instinctual man lived in such a 'golden age' way. Odds are they lived like the primitive animals they were. Also, if memory serves, the golden age comes around every 15,000 years or so, and it's safe to say man was thinking up a storm 15,000 years ago and hasn't evolved much since. Language is an interesting mile market because what's the first thing a newly separate peep is gonna' do? They're gonna' start snapping their fingers in the faces of all the dummies who don't know better! "Hey, you!, ya' you! I'm talkin' to you and I got somethin's important to say!". Since the primary record is bones it's tough to tell but at least rudimentary vocal communication is likely well over a million and more likely about 2 million years old (search on "speech").
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Post by enigma on Jun 25, 2014 2:04:03 GMT -5
From my perspective, ego arose along with self awareness, in a biological sense. Self identification is the natural outcome of self awareness, and that's simply the Pandoras box found along the path of evolution of all species. In that way, the human animal is no different than any other, just more evolved. I agree with Tolle that this went along with the development of language and active thinking, which puts the onset of ego at a fairly primitive level of man's evolution. I think Tolle is guessing about the golden age where everybody got along just fine because you would likely not say primitive, instinctual man lived in such a 'golden age' way. Odds are they lived like the primitive animals they were. Also, if memory serves, the golden age comes around every 15,000 years or so, and it's safe to say man was thinking up a storm 15,000 years ago and hasn't evolved much since. Language is an interesting mile market because what's the first thing a newly separate peep is gonna' do? They're gonna' start snapping their fingers in the faces of all the dummies who don't know better! "Hey, you!, ya' you! I'm talkin' to you and I got somethin's important to say!". Since the primary record is bones it's tough to tell but at least rudimentary vocal communication is likely well over a million and more likely about 2 million years old (search on "speech"). A good estimate for when ego/language/self awareness arose would be indicators of skulls being bashed in apparently by other humans.
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Post by silver on Jun 25, 2014 2:05:43 GMT -5
Language is an interesting mile market because what's the first thing a newly separate peep is gonna' do? They're gonna' start snapping their fingers in the faces of all the dummies who don't know better! "Hey, you!, ya' you! I'm talkin' to you and I got somethin's important to say!". Since the primary record is bones it's tough to tell but at least rudimentary vocal communication is likely well over a million and more likely about 2 million years old (search on "speech"). A good estimate for when ego/language/self awareness arose would be indicators of skulls being bashed in apparently by other humans. 'We' were doing slapstick before we knew we were doing slapstick -- or so it would seem.
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Post by laughter on Jun 25, 2014 2:24:26 GMT -5
Language is an interesting mile market because what's the first thing a newly separate peep is gonna' do? They're gonna' start snapping their fingers in the faces of all the dummies who don't know better! "Hey, you!, ya' you! I'm talkin' to you and I got somethin's important to say!". Since the primary record is bones it's tough to tell but at least rudimentary vocal communication is likely well over a million and more likely about 2 million years old (search on "speech"). A good estimate for when ego/language/self awareness arose would be indicators of skulls being bashed in apparently by other humans. As you alluded to with regard to self-awareness in general there's of course a spectrum involved, and in terms of human history, the results of the Agricultural Revolution really stand out as a turning point .. but the thing is that the ice ages which came and went with irregularity throughout the history of the species were likely a sort of reset button. The current period of time since the last glaciation (11.5k yrs) is, from what I remember reading, unusually long. Carl did an episode in the original Cosmos on the Library at Alexandria, and the sense of "what-if" that he conveyed in speaking of Berossus wasn't really regret, but a sort of palpable wistful awe at what we could have known.
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Post by topology on Jun 25, 2014 8:13:31 GMT -5
The current consensus on deep human history as told by archeology, anthropology and genetics tells an interesting story with a few likely points where the changing environment caused bottlenecks in the population. These periods of stress drove the process of evolution and it was likely one of these turning points -- volcanic eruptions, droughts in East Africa, ice-age transitions and several other suspects -- at which the sense of separate self emerged.When the environment is trying to kill you, it's a survival advantage to go to war with it. That worked quite well for us as long as the planet was vast compared to the species. We kept multiplying as other species that had specialized went extinct. Eventually, the success of the strategy had to lead to it's end, as the war was never not with ourselves.
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