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Post by topology on Jun 21, 2014 14:12:55 GMT -5
It sounds like the appreciation you are talking about is rooted in the aversion to the experience of the absence of the bottoms of your feet. I suppose you could say that a child's gladness to see his parents again after having been lost from them for a time is rooted in the absence of the angst of being separated from them. But the child, simple as he is, would likely say that he is just glad to be with them again. So we have a situation where there is no aversion to the absemce, but entering into the presence of is appreciated more than being in the presence of after a while.... something funny going on here. Appreciation of novelty? Appreciating stimulation over boredom?
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Post by laughter on Jun 21, 2014 15:06:47 GMT -5
"It's here, looking me in the eye. It's here, here all the time." - Kim Wilde The video's not available in the US, but yeah. Reefs is one o' 'dem dern foreigners!!
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Post by laughter on Jun 21, 2014 15:11:23 GMT -5
It sounds like the appreciation you are talking about is rooted in the aversion to the experience of the absence of the bottoms of your feet. I suppose you could say that a child's gladness to see his parents again after having been lost from them for a time is rooted in the absence of the angst of being separated from them. But the child, simple as he is, would likely say that he is just glad to be with them again. Just as likely though that the kid would develop an abandonment complex if she'd gotten dependent on her mother. Seems to me to depend on age/development.
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Post by enigma on Jun 21, 2014 19:41:22 GMT -5
A child, in order to really love and really appreciation a Parent, can not be programmed, forced or manipulated into giving love and appreciation, because then it would not have been freely offered and therefore would not be real. It may be me, but it seems that Source made a way for us to fall away and then to "choose" to return Home, to Him, Who like in the story of the returning prodigal son, comes to us with open arms, joy and blessings, while we are yet still far from Home. And I think we get a gold ring and a roast suckling pig or something too Despite the fact that you backed off this stated OP, a few posts down, this is essentially how I view our present circumstances. Non-duality would indicate that the "fall" is imaginary, the separation is not real. Source is source of life, but our identity passes into subjectivity, into duality. I consider it the case that what we say "I" to, where identity resides, so to speak (simply, one could say, [in] false self), has to make a real journey back, consciously uniting with Source. IOW, separate self is not merely an illusion that has to be *eliminated*, so to speak, by realization. The journey is a real journey. It's a real journey, but a journey to nowhere. As you say, the fall is imaginary and the separation not real, so I can't agree that there is a reuniting through a journey. There's just the discovery of what is already the case. Agreed.
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Post by enigma on Jun 21, 2014 20:00:46 GMT -5
And the reason that you are suggesting is so that a choice can be made freely for love, or something like that? From the POV of this existence, I see that some who choose to seek discover that what was sought was here all along, and in the discovery cry deep tears of laughter, appreciation and gratitude. Would such a thing be possible if the one seeking had been created perfected? I don't see how you can appreciate something if you've never experienced what seemed to be having been without it, illusion or no. Oh, okay. Sure, we could say freedom could not be appreciated unless there was the experience of not being free. There doesn't seem to be a plan for that, but rather there seems to be an interest in limitation. There are innumerable experiences that can only come out of a sense of being bound. Essentially, that interest must be exhausted.
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Post by enigma on Jun 21, 2014 20:04:45 GMT -5
From the POV of this existence, I see that some who choose to seek discover that what was sought was here all along, and in the discovery cry deep tears of laughter, appreciation and gratitude. Would such a thing be possible if the one seeking had been created perfected? I don't see how you can appreciate something if you've never experienced what seemed to be having been without it, illusion or no. What is appreciation? A healthy ripe peach tastes sweet. Are you saying that the sweetness cannot be enjoyed and appreciated intrinsically? I would say so, yes. If everything tasted sweet, nothing would taste sweet.
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Post by enigma on Jun 21, 2014 20:06:49 GMT -5
What is appreciation? A healthy ripe peach tastes sweet. Are you saying that the sweetness cannot be enjoyed and appreciated intrinsically? Appreciation can mean many things but the way I am using it here is like this. I'm sure very few people have really considered the great value of having bottoms to their feet. We tend to take such things for granted. But if you lost them somehow then you might appreciate their value in a way you never had before. And if you regained by some medical miracle them you certainly would appreciate them in a way you couldn't have if you had never lost them. Thank God for foot bottoms!
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Post by justlikeyou on Jun 21, 2014 20:16:57 GMT -5
I suppose you could say that a child's gladness to see his parents again after having been lost from them for a time is rooted in the absence of the angst of being separated from them. But the child, simple as he is, would likely say that he is just glad to be with them again. So we have a situation where there is no aversion to the absemce, but entering into the presence of is appreciated more than being in the presence of after a while.... something funny going on here. Appreciation of novelty? Appreciating stimulation over boredom? Oh no, I think that there absolutely is an aversion of sorts at play here. I would call the existential angst or core unease the human being suffers from, consciously or unconsciously, a very important aversion. It is the driver behind the search that, for some, ends in the realization that what was sought was always already here.
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Post by enigma on Jun 21, 2014 20:19:18 GMT -5
Appreciation can mean many things but the way I am using it here is like this. I'm sure very few people have really considered the great value of having bottoms to their feet. We tend to take such things for granted. But if you lost them somehow then you might appreciate their value in a way you never had before. And if you regained by some medical miracle them you certainly would appreciate them in a way you couldn't have if you had never lost them. And if being without them was not a negative experience, would there be that appreciation as a result of their absence? It sounds like the appreciation you are talking about is rooted in the aversion to the experience of the absence of the bottoms of your feet. Edit What I mean to say is that you are not really appreciating the presence of the bottoms of your feet. You are appreciating the absence of the absence of the bottoms of your feet. Appreciating the presence of your feet would be enjoying their look, enjoying the sensation you experience through them. Etc. No absence is needed to appreciate the presence. Well, you just have to have somewhere to go before you can appreciate where you are when you get there. Hehe. That doesn't necessarily mean recognizing a loss or absence before discovering a gain. If you sprouted wings, you would likely appreciate their utility in comparison to being wingless, even though you may have never lamented winglessness. It doesn't matter whether a gain is compared to a prior experience of loss or a present experience of prior absence. The appreciation is still there.
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Post by enigma on Jun 21, 2014 20:23:45 GMT -5
I suppose you could say that a child's gladness to see his parents again after having been lost from them for a time is rooted in the absence of the angst of being separated from them. But the child, simple as he is, would likely say that he is just glad to be with them again. So we have a situation where there is no aversion to the absemce, but entering into the presence of is appreciated more than being in the presence of after a while.... something funny going on here. Appreciation of novelty? Appreciating stimulation over boredom? It's called duality. Yes, it's pretty funny.
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Post by enigma on Jun 21, 2014 20:26:35 GMT -5
The video's not available in the US, but yeah. Reefs is one o' 'dem dern foreigners!! That must be why he got kicked outa the club.
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Post by laughter on Jun 21, 2014 21:30:31 GMT -5
Reefs is one o' 'dem dern foreigners!! That must be why he got kicked outa the club. Who's turn is it to change the locks on the clubhouse door this week?
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Post by enigma on Jun 21, 2014 22:01:33 GMT -5
That must be why he got kicked outa the club. Who's turn is it to change the locks on the clubhouse door this week? It's Reef's turn....So what do we do now?
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Post by laughter on Jun 21, 2014 22:44:55 GMT -5
Who's turn is it to change the locks on the clubhouse door this week? It's Reef's turn....So what do we do now? Cross the wires on his toaster when he's not looking and then steal back the keys when the sparks knock him out. Don't forget to slip his decoder ring off while he's out as well.
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Post by enigma on Jun 21, 2014 22:57:30 GMT -5
It's Reef's turn....So what do we do now? Cross the wires on his toaster when he's not looking and then steal back the keys when the sparks knock him out. Don't forget to slip his decoder ring off while he's out as well. Sounds like a plan!
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