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Post by zendancer on Apr 26, 2014 9:00:13 GMT -5
D: It's probably worth emphasizing what Quinn wrote about the jabbering not stopping suddenly. What Tolle calls the "compulsion of incessant thought" was so strong in my case that it took quite a bit of meditation before gaps between thoughts became long enough to be recognized as gaps, and even more time before the mind became silent for sustained periods of time. Today, the body can stop thinking "at will," but it does so only when "what is" chooses to do so because there is no longer an imaginary internal battle going on within an imagined thinker who desires various imagined states of being. There is simply "what is" manifesting "just like this."
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Post by laughter on Apr 26, 2014 9:40:52 GMT -5
Forget about meditation supposing to work or not work for some purpose or outcome, do it as though the meditation itself is both the purpose and the outcome...in other words, meditate for meditation's sake, not as a means to something or someplace else. Why would anyone want to do that? Might be curiosity. Might be for health if a correlation to that is noticed. Meditation happens. |
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Post by laughter on Apr 26, 2014 9:46:41 GMT -5
Both. It didn't work as advertised and then he didn't see the point in taking his advice anymore.  empty likes to play teacher at times here, that's what that is all about. It's an open forum, It's an If you can't run with the big dogs, get off the porch, kind of thing. If empty has broken any rules I'm sure somebody would call him on that. We all go through lots of s**t. If you're working on self the s**t just piles up faster, sometimes we get buried. All that matters is that we just get up and keep moving, maybe someday we have a breakthrough. You can see-it in some people............not that empty needs defending....... One of the Labors of Hercules was cleaning out all the s**t of the Augean stables........sounds like a plan......at one point or another........ sdp |
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Post by laughter on Apr 26, 2014 9:54:50 GMT -5
Now, why does meditation cause less sleep required? I'd say because it reduces resistance. And less resistance means more energy. So instead of replenishing your energy with sleep (which is a period of no resistance) you can have the same effect with meditation. Also, I don't believe that there's just a certain amount of energy allotted to you per day. It just looks that way because with the usual level of resistance, most barely make it thru the day. Yeah, that's the way it seems to work over here. |
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Post by laughter on Apr 26, 2014 9:56:56 GMT -5
I wasn't aware of that. Now there really is something not quite adding up here.  You don't actually keep a dossier on each of us, do you? Quinny ... the vernacular of the day is .. "coffin nail" ..  |
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Post by laughter on Apr 26, 2014 10:02:34 GMT -5
I envy people who can still their minds. Mine is a self-defeating, recursive fear machine. I've read all I can about non-duality and I still haven't found the Golden Ratio. Most days I am just in a sh## load of pain and frustration. Djembebum - this is how it went for me: The recursive negative blah blah tape-loop didn't just suddenly stop. There was a point where I realized two things: The first was a very simple obvious (in retrospect) one - that if I am aware of the tape loop, then who I am can not possibly be my thoughts about who I am (the loop). Basic, I know, but quite a revelation to me! The second was about the truth of what was in the loop - everything was true...sometimes. The part I had missed was that the opposite of everything in the loop was also true sometimes. Ego wants us under it's thumb, so it makes finding the negative very easy. Gotta go against the grain to dig up the good stuff. Even realizing those two things didn't stop the tape loop, it just stopped my belief that anything in there really mattered. It was like a little gnat that would buzz around and after awhile it wound down on its own. Meditation didn't have much to do with it except give me a little tool to be able to watch the whole show and not get too worked up when the gnat buzzed around again. It most certainly didn't give me the ability to still my mind, maybe just a little more equilibrium to watch thoughts rise and fall, rise and fall (which is really where the stillness is). Similar story here although I found and still find the antics of the mind to be incredibly humorous. Who is the laugher? ..  The question of stilling the mind by will is at once both a canard and a koan. |
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Post by laughter on Apr 26, 2014 10:07:15 GMT -5
Why would you suggest meditating for meditation's sake when his goal is peace of mind? Sounds counter-intuitive. People who start meditating in order to quiet a jabbering out-of-control mind (to attain some peace of mind) usually do so under the illusion that they are personal entities with a jabbering out-of-control mind who need to do something in order to get something. So, there are three issues. First, there is the issue of quieting a jabbering mind, second, there is the idea of doing something to get something which is an activity oriented toward an imaginary future, and third, there is the issue of thinking that there is someone, a personal entity, who is being tormented by a jabbering mind. In his post Steve is addressing the second issue, but for someone who is being tormented by a jabbering negative out-of-control mind, it is probably too soon to focus on either the second or third issues. The initial task is to attain some peace of mind and freedom from the incessant negative jabbering. Djem's Krishnamurti quote is being misinterpreted, but D. has read so much about non-duality that he doesn't know what to believe. As someone who once suffered from a jabbering out-of-control mind, I can assure D. that shifting attention away from thoughts to either breath awareness or some other form of ATA will definitely create space in the mind and diminish the amount and intensity of the jabbering. After the mind has calmed down a bit, and is no longer driving one crazy, then the second and third issues can be investigated. The second issue, which Steve addressed, is the importance of becoming present during whatever activity is being pursued. In this case, meditation is the activity, so Steve is saying, in effect, "If you're meditating, do it for no reason at all." IOW, forget the idea of doing something now in order to get something in the future; just be present with whatever is happening. This is good advice, but in this case it's probably too early to be useful. At the moment D. believes that he is a person suffering from a jabbering, negative, out-of-control mind, so the first order of business is to deal with that issue. Reefs advice about working with the body is appropriate, and I would suggest taking some long walks in a park or wilderness area while looking at the world. This would combine physical exercise (getting grounded/getting into the body/getting out of one's head) with ATA. It's like killing two birds with one stone, and I used this approach myself when I first started trying to attain some freedom from the internal dialogue. FWIW I did the walking ATA thing in the afternoons after work and at night I sat on a sofa and counted the breaths, watched the breathing process, felt the breathing process, etc. I can assure D. that if he pursues these types of meditative activities, his mind will calm down and various insights will ensue. His attention will shift more and more often to the world around him and away from his negative thoughts. IMO that's the first and more important step. Later, as he becomes more present, he will appreciate the value of presence. Eventually, if he "gets out of his head," persists in remaining psychologically present during much of the day, and becomes focused upon "what is," he will discover that he is not who he thinks he is. That is when meditation becomes truly impersonal. Thanks ZD. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 10:09:04 GMT -5
You don't actually keep a dossier on each of us, do you? Quinny ... the vernacular of the day is .. "coffin nail" ..  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 10:13:39 GMT -5
I envy people who can still their minds. Mine is a self-defeating, recursive fear machine. I've read all I can about non-duality and I still haven't found the Golden Ratio. Most days I am just in a sh## load of pain and frustration. Djembebum - this is how it went for me: The recursive negative blah blah tape-loop didn't just suddenly stop. There was a point where I realized two things: The first was a very simple obvious (in retrospect) one - that if I am aware of the tape loop, then who I am can not possibly be my thoughts about who I am (the loop). Basic, I know, but quite a revelation to me! The second was about the truth of what was in the loop - everything was true...sometimes. The part I had missed was that the opposite of everything in the loop was also true sometimes. Ego wants us under it's thumb, so it makes finding the negative very easy. Gotta go against the grain to dig up the good stuff. Even realizing those two things didn't stop the tape loop, it just stopped my belief that anything in there really mattered. It was like a little gnat that would buzz around and afterward awhile it wound down on its own. Meditation didn't have much to do with it except give me a little tool to be able to watch the whole show and not get too worked up when the gnat buzzed around again. It most certainly didn't give me the ability to still my mind, maybe just a little more equilibrium to watch thoughts rise and fall, rise and fall (which is really where the stillness is). Thanks for that Quinn. About as close as I get to meditation is to sit and watch the thought parade, and try to watch it with indifference. |
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Post by laughter on Apr 26, 2014 10:17:37 GMT -5
Quinny ... the vernacular of the day is .. "coffin nail" ..  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 10:18:02 GMT -5
D: It's probably worth emphasizing what Quinn wrote about the jabbering not stopping suddenly. What Tolle calls the "compulsion of incessant thought" was so strong in my case that it took quite a bit of meditation before gaps between thoughts became long enough to be recognized as gaps, and even more time before the mind became silent for sustained periods of time. Today, the body can stop thinking "at will," but it does so only when "what is" chooses to do so because there is no longer an imaginary internal battle going on within an imagined thinker who desires various imagined states of being. There is simply "what is" manifesting "just like this." Thanks zd. I am trying to cultivate some detatchment from the internal chatter. Hard to do  |
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Post by enigma on Apr 26, 2014 10:38:39 GMT -5
Why would anyone want to do that? Might be curiosity. Might be for health if a correlation to that is noticed. Meditation happens. Then one is not meditating for meditation's sake but for health reasons or curiosity about what might result. |
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Post by laughter on Apr 26, 2014 10:44:04 GMT -5
Might be curiosity. Might be for health if a correlation to that is noticed. Meditation happens. Then one is not meditating for meditation's sake but for health reasons or curiosity about what might result. D@mn you and your stinkin' logic (** ptooey! **)  ok then. Meditation happens. |
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Post by enigma on Apr 26, 2014 10:50:17 GMT -5
Then one is not meditating for meditation's sake but for health reasons or curiosity about what might result. D@mn you and your stinkin' logic (** ptooey! **) ok then. Meditation happens. Maybe what yous guys are trying to say is 'be present'. |
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Post by laughter on Apr 26, 2014 10:52:26 GMT -5
D@mn you and your stinkin' logic (** ptooey! **) ok then. Meditation happens. Maybe what yous guys are trying to say is 'be present'. |
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