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Post by enigma on Apr 25, 2014 22:37:51 GMT -5
It was your suggestion that he'd already done that. :-) sorry, my intellectual capacity to follow these kind of conversations may be slipping. Or maybe I'm just getting old or somethin lol Following the conversation is one thing and remembering what you said yourself is another.  |
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Post by enigma on Apr 25, 2014 23:18:25 GMT -5
I'll try it, empty. But see, already there are all these memories of reading UG Krishnamurti disparaging meditation, so I'm like "what's the point if it doesn't work?" I think I've read so many different people that I dont know what's what anymore. Forget about meditation supposing to work or not work for some purpose or outcome, do it as though the meditation itself is both the purpose and the outcome...in other words, meditate for meditation's sake, not as a means to something or someplace else. Why would anyone want to do that? |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 25, 2014 23:44:46 GMT -5
Have thoughts like the one you gave as the example ever been of use to you in any way? Have you ever benefited from them? no, not at all. djembebum.......I can totally relate. In 1974, '75 and '76 I suffered periods of almost unbearable depression (but I didn't put that label on it until 1976). I was in a constant battle within, the UGK quote is very apt for my state then. I struggled to find a reason to get up and move about every day, I had no meaning. I couldn't see a future. I continually had a lot of negative self-talk even though I had been reading J. Krishnamurti since about 1971. By '74 I had also read Carlos Castaneda so knew about stopping the internal dialogue and Joseph Chilton Pearce's Crack in the Cosmic Egg, his language was roof-brain chatter. But knowing that the internal tape loops could stop didn't help me to stop them. I became unbearable to myself. I got to the point that I had to escape from my own negative thinking. I've mentioned this before here on ST's, I had been ice skating since I was ten, so I used this and could stop my thoughts briefly by watching the movement of my legs while skating. However, I got to the point of considering suicide to end the non-stop internal dialogue. By then I had moved back in with my parents so I didn't have to worry about taking care of myself, as in, roof and food. I got to the point that I literally could not do anything. I narrowed down my life to a few seconds. I got to the point that all I could do was put one foot in front of the other, and when I did that I did it again. I literally erased the future. Part of my problem was not seeing me doing anything in the future, so my focus narrowed to getting through the next few seconds. This helped, but the constant internal dialogue would not stop. During my last period of time of seriously considering suicide I said to myself, I don't care if I live or die. And then something clicked inside, I said to myself, well, if that's true, then I might-as-well live. Somehow that brought a sense of relief. Now, I had known that the internal dialogue was just the replaying of recorded tape-loops in my mind, but this relief brought some distance inside. In my mind I had known that the tape-loops weren't me, but the knowing became deeper than conceptual knowing, I knew I was going to be OK, something had broken loose inside. .........and within a month I had a "When the student is ready........"..__________.... Sense then everything has not been easy, but I've had a compass that keeps bringing me back on track........ All I can say is just keep exploring attention. There is scattered attention, interested attention and voluntary attention. Your attention is separate from thoughts, emotions, movements and sensations. If you find the present moment, thoughts will stop, because thought always involves time, thought is always in some sense a replay or a description. (That's not to say that it's impossible to simultaneously be in thought and in the present moment, but, I'd say that's a more complicated state of consciousness and maybe further down the road......)........ sdp |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 25, 2014 23:50:24 GMT -5
Goofiness Is funny...in a thread about argumentative drama, someone says some basic common sense, like: Make folks around you feel more secure, comfortable, and respected, and you will have less argumentative drama, and folks make this big personal hubbub and idealistic argument about 'that not being genuine' just to argue something. Heh Folks around here have less sense than they have pride and argumentativeness sometimes  Its like folks are disconnected from the world here sometimes...like a bunch of teenagers sitting in a coffee shop debating aspects of life they they have never lived or something...that is an over-exaggeration of course, but still, there seems to be this kinda disconnect from life and often, common sense in these types of conversations, where a kind of teenage like idealism that is divorced from every day practical life happens. So is the problem that you didn't take your own advice, or that you did and it didn't work as advertised?  Both. It didn't work as advertised and then he didn't see the point in taking his advice anymore.  |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 25, 2014 23:55:04 GMT -5
Well, you also have to see all others as needy which just amplifies the neediness again. There's also another catch to this: What happens when you meet someone you assume is need but actually isn't and you give him the nanny treatment anyway? They'll probly feel like they aren't being understood and maybe they're being manipulated. Well, one of Dale Carnegie's books is called "How to win friends and influence people"... |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 26, 2014 0:00:33 GMT -5
Okay, now you are making an effort to give respect. But you are giving it with one hand and take it away immediately with the other.  Your approach, which is trying to live a concept/idea/ideal, relies on memory and constant self-reflection. Which means as long as you remember your to-do list, it's probably going to work. But since you have to basically monitor yourself all the time, it's a split mind activity. Apart from that, you also have to do a lot of speculating about what the other actually needs and to what degree he/she needs it and then find a way to give them what you think they need. And if you fail to deliver or if you forgot, then you even might start self-criticism. Quite a complicated matter. Being 100% genuine is the opposite of that. There's no need to monitor or speculate and the self-reflective hyper-minding has fallen away altogether because you're not trying to follow any ideal. Also, when one succeeds in fulfilling the needs of another, what naturally follows is more needs to fulfill. The weight of endless expectations quickly becomes burdensome. It's the Bodhisattva game. It's designed to never actually come to an end. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 26, 2014 0:03:42 GMT -5
So is the problem that you didn't take your own advice, or that you did and it didn't work as advertised? Both. It didn't work as advertised and then he didn't see the point in taking his advice anymore. empty likes to play teacher at times here, that's what that is all about. It's an open forum, It's an If you can't run with the big dogs, get off the porch, kind of thing. If empty has broken any rules I'm sure somebody would call him on that. We all go through lots of s**t. If you're working on self the s**t just piles up faster, sometimes we get buried. All that matters is that we just get up and keep moving, maybe someday we have a breakthrough. You can see-it in some people............not that empty needs defending....... One of the Labors of Hercules was cleaning out all the s**t of the Augean stables........sounds like a plan......at one point or another........ sdp |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 26, 2014 0:03:56 GMT -5
There's that distinction again between noticing insult and feeling insulted. Recognizing the defamation in what the other writes is a step prior to the moralist outrage at the feeling of having been defamed. Haha, all these moving imaginary lines are starting to confuse me...is it me, or Reef's thats about to take the leap into moralistic outrage?  |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 26, 2014 0:05:44 GMT -5
Did I get this right, you are a meditation teacher that suffers from insomnia?  And that seems odder to you than a meditation teacher with emphysema who sucks down lung darts? (I'm a substitute meditation teacher - only when the teacher's not there. And then I don't actually 'teach', I usually turn it into a group discussion.) I wasn't aware of that. Now there really is something not quite adding up here. |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 26, 2014 0:09:13 GMT -5
It was your suggestion that he'd already done that. :-) sorry, my intellectual capacity to follow these kind of conversations may be slipping. Or maybe I'm just getting old or somethin lol Or you may be just copping out because you've nailed your foot to the floor. |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 26, 2014 0:14:25 GMT -5
And that seems odder to you than a meditation teacher with emphysema who sucks down lung darts? (I'm a substitute meditation teacher - only when the teacher's not there. And then I don't actually 'teach', I usually turn it into a group discussion.) Deep meditative states can replace sleep, so one would think that insomnia may ensue kinda commonly in a beginning to middling meditator that is meditating regularly. Right. But I rather think Quinn has some psychological baggage (resistance) to work thru which keeps here awake. |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 26, 2014 0:24:35 GMT -5
WIBIGO: copout dodge. The copout dodge disguised as forgetfulness or lack of intellectual power is a tricky one. In the taxonomy of WIBIGO defense mechanisms I'm not sure which phyla it goes into. It is possible that the words being used are not being digested well for reasons of lacking vocabulary or familiarity with sentence structure.... In other words, the 'dodge' aspect could be unconsciously intentional or just a computational problem. Certainly 'feigning obliviousness' is a form of dishonesty. From personal experience, I'm embarrassed to report, it does appear to be genuine obliviousness in the moment, and is claimed sincerely and honestly. In retrospect, with focused introspection, it is seen that all the experience and memory was there to be drawn on to suggest that there was no actual obliviousness. In other words, I think it can be a temporary condition that is a perfect storm of the fight/flight reflex combined with some sort of judicious amnesia which wipes out the momentary use of amnesia itself as a defense mechanism. notsureifi'mmakingmyselfclear Steve is just showing us how disingenuous his relationship approach is. His ideal nails his foot to the floor. It narrows down his options of expressing himself. He can't respond freely, which means he can't just be who he really is. He has to suppress certain parts of him that don't fit his ideal of the always politely smiling and uplifting living Buddha. He even has to correct other people's image of him (cop out dodge). That's quite a full time job.  |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 26, 2014 0:27:38 GMT -5
(** facepalm **) What's the face palm about? I thought you and Reefs value precision. The 'turn it into a group discussion' part sounds odd. |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 26, 2014 0:33:24 GMT -5
I'll check'en out.  .. mostly there was jest givin' Quinny a hard time for the sake of it  Hey, there.  Yeah, I actually love the discussion part. It's supposed to be about the blah blah vicissitudes and some-number of hindrances and the near enemy/far enemy stuff - I'm making fun of it now, but it's actually pretty amazing teachings. But my favorite part is when we veer off into how that all applies to dealing with Uncle Joe who's judgmental or losing one's temper at work, that sort of thing. None of the people I meditate with have any interest in non-duality, and as far as 'entering stillness' - well, really they're all there for different reasons and with different trajectories. You could probably boil it down to 'alleviate suffering' and/or 'gain clarity', though. T he actual meditation period is around 1 1/2 hours, plenty long enough.That's okay for a yoga class, but for a meditation class?  |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 26, 2014 0:36:57 GMT -5
90 minutes huh ..  .. I'd need a frickin' ritalin iv!  I envy people who can still their minds. Mine is a self-defeating, recursive fear machine. I've read all I can about non-duality and I still haven't found the Golden Ratio. Most days I am just in a sh## load of pain and frustration. Try working with the body instead of working directly with the mind. |
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.. mostly there was jest givin' Quinny a hard time for the sake of it 
