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Post by Reefs on Apr 5, 2014 22:58:04 GMT -5
What is non-duality?
1) Non-duality is a process/practice.
2) Non-duality is the case.
3) Non-duality is a pointer.
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Post by tzujanli on Apr 5, 2014 23:59:23 GMT -5
Nonduality is an idea..
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Post by Reefs on Apr 6, 2014 1:52:16 GMT -5
Didn't you just say that non-duality is a process/practice? 'nonduality', on the otherhand, is not self-evident, it is a practice and a process of reconditioning how and what someone thinks.. |
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Post by enigma on Apr 6, 2014 2:17:57 GMT -5
Didn't you just say that non-duality is a process/practice? 'nonduality', on the otherhand, is not self-evident, it is a practice and a process of reconditioning how and what someone thinks.. All he knows is that it's evil and bad cuz the separate volitional ego person isn't allowed in that club.  Same goes for oneness. |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 6, 2014 4:23:48 GMT -5
Didn't you just say that non-duality is a process/practice? All he knows is that it's evil and bad cuz the separate volitional ego person isn't allowed in that club. Same goes for oneness. Well, what's basically happening here is that Tzu is trying to take the 'non' out of non-duality and then we have to put it back in again.  |
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Post by whiteshaman on Apr 6, 2014 5:53:15 GMT -5
We all experience being seperate. We all experience making choices. We all experience a personality. Why can't we stop there? I am wide awake and none of those qualities, here, have gone away nor has there come forth an explanation other than they are included in what arises from emptiness. To cling to them and/ or to deny them is making claim to a mystery that there is no claim. I agree with Tzu ....non-duality is an idea except I would add that it is the idea of non-duality that is an idea and that is what is being talked about here
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Post by tzujanli on Apr 6, 2014 11:02:01 GMT -5
We all experience being seperate. We all experience making choices. We all experience a personality. Why can't we stop there? I am wide awake and none of those qualities, here, have gone away nor has there come forth an explanation other than they are included in what arises from emptiness. To cling to them and/ or to deny them is making claim to a mystery that there is no claim. I agree with Tzu ....non-duality is an idea except I would add that it is the idea of non-duality that is an idea and that is what is being talked about here Hi WS: Thanks.. it's confusing to me as to how someone has the direct experiences of being separate, making choices, and self-awareness as a unique 'person', then begins imagining a story that intends to negate their 'self'-awareness, which is the source of their imaginings.. the story about 'no separate volitional person', is volitionally imagined/chosen/believed by a separate person who then tries to convince other separate persons to agree.. and yet, it is all happening like s single living organism evolving, parts AND whole interacting in the experience of existence.. it's really simple, be still and know.. it's really not helpful to insist that the 'separate volitional person' who would benefit from the experience of stillness is not real.. |
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Post by enigma on Apr 6, 2014 11:44:09 GMT -5
We all experience being seperate. We all experience making choices. We all experience a personality. Why can't we stop there? I am wide awake and none of those qualities, here, have gone away nor has there come forth an explanation other than they are included in what arises from emptiness. To cling to them and/ or to deny them is making claim to a mystery that there is no claim. I agree with Tzu ....non-duality is an idea except I would add that it is the idea of non-duality that is an idea and that is what is being talked about here Hi WS: Thanks.. it's confusing to me as to how someone has the direct experiences of being separate, making choices, and self-awareness as a unique 'person', then begins imagining a story that intends to negate their 'self'-awareness, which is the source of their imaginings.. the story about 'no separate volitional person', is volitionally imagined/chosen/believed by a separate person who then tries to convince other separate persons to agree.. and yet, it is all happening like s single living organism evolving, parts AND whole interacting in the experience of existence.. it's really simple, be still and know.. it's really not helpful to insist that the 'separate volitional person' who would benefit from the experience of stillness is not real.. Be still and know that what you're experiencing is an illusion. |
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Post by tzujanli on Apr 6, 2014 11:52:07 GMT -5
Hi WS: Thanks.. it's confusing to me as to how someone has the direct experiences of being separate, making choices, and self-awareness as a unique 'person', then begins imagining a story that intends to negate their 'self'-awareness, which is the source of their imaginings.. the story about 'no separate volitional person', is volitionally imagined/chosen/believed by a separate person who then tries to convince other separate persons to agree.. and yet, it is all happening like s single living organism evolving, parts AND whole interacting in the experience of existence.. it's really simple, be still and know.. it's really not helpful to insist that the 'separate volitional person' who would benefit from the experience of stillness is not real.. Be still and know that what you're experiencing is an illusion. Why do you think that what is experienced is illusion? |
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Post by laughter on Apr 6, 2014 16:51:29 GMT -5
What is non-duality? 1) Non-duality is a process/practice. 2) Non-duality is the case. 3) Non-duality is a pointer. I'd say that the distinction between 2 and 3 is subjective. The difference is at best subtle if the pointer is followed, or stark if it's rejected. From what I've seen in my forum career the rejection can come in the way of over thinking nonduality or a visceral reaction to the perceived implication of individual negation. This isn't to claim that every rejection of the pointer need necessarily fall into one of these boxes, but ... well ..  What nonduality points to doesn't touch the individual, but can lead to a perspective on the idea of the individual that some find controversial. In American culture the most common expression of identity is based on an aggregate of history, occupation, association and physicality. Nonduality obviously points away from that. Beyond the common cultural ideas of selfhood there is the question of how the sense of identity fits in with the individual experience of cognition and emotion. Nonduality points away from those associations as well, and towards an absence of association in general. In one good deep breath we can answer the question "Do you or don't you exist?", and it's the one question that can be answered with absolute certainty and with no reference to any sort of relative polarity. |
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Post by enigma on Apr 6, 2014 18:57:37 GMT -5
Be still and know that what you're experiencing is an illusion. Why do you think that what is experienced is illusion? Because I'm being still and knowing.  |
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Post by relinquish on Apr 6, 2014 19:20:42 GMT -5
Be still and know that what you're experiencing is an illusion. Why do you think that what is experienced is illusion? What is experienced is an illusion because it always appears with an opposite; the experiencer. Neither of these 'two' really are, because they are SO inseparable that what is always more fundamentally the case (and therefore more TRUE) is a single seamless continuum of what I will call here 'pure experiencing', that is OF Reality, BY Reality. |
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Post by whiteshaman on Apr 6, 2014 19:32:07 GMT -5
Why do you think that what is experienced is illusion? What is experienced is an illusion because it always appears with an opposite; the experiencer. Neither of these 'two' really are, because they are SO inseparable that what is always more fundamentally the case (and therefore more TRUE) is a single seamless continuum of what I will call here 'pure experiencing', that is OF Reality, BY Reality. What is there that is not reality? The question of there being one or two isn't the issue. They both are and they are as they are...unless one wants to deny it. Again, not saying what they are, just saying that they are. |
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Post by whiteshaman on Apr 6, 2014 19:36:23 GMT -5
Why do you think that what is experienced is illusion? Because I'm being still and knowing. What's your definition of illusion? |
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Post by enigma on Apr 6, 2014 19:39:53 GMT -5
Because I'm being still and knowing. What's your definition of illusion? That which is not what it appears to be. |
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