Movies

[stardustpilgrim]

I watched Donnie Darko after David Scoma highly recommended it as his favorite spiritual/existential film. It's now 20 years old. If you haven't seen it, it's a mystery to the end, and I will give no spoilers, but throughout the film there are clues you will miss. But there is (sort of) a spoiler/spoilers in the link story. If you think you might watch it I'd recommend not reading up on it. Yes, it's very good.

www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/opinion-this-20-year-old-cult-film-captures-2021-perfectly/ar-AAQ3R3Q?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

[inavalan]

Oct 28, 2021 17:25:14 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

I watched Donnie Darko after David Scoma highly recommended it as his favorite spiritual/existential film. It's now 20 years old. If you haven't seen it, it's a mystery to the end, and I will give no spoilers, but throughout the film there are clues you will miss. But there is (sort of) a spoiler/spoilers in the link story. If you think you might watch it I'd recommend not reading up on it. Yes, it's very good.

www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/opinion-this-20-year-old-cult-film-captures-2021-perfectly/ar-AAQ3R3Q?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

What did you like at this movie? Why do you recommend it?

I watched it long time ago and don't recall much of the plot. I think it was about the main character's dilemma between choosing to change the course of reality resulting in saving his life while having somebody else die, and choosing to let it run unchanged resulting in the main character's death with the survival of the other. You have only one guess what choice he made.

I don't recall if the plot was supernatural, dream, hallucination, or undecided.

[laughter]

Ethan Hawke is an interesting guy. His 2000 Hamlet would be my number one recommendation. Zeros and Ones won't be everyone's favorite:



I found it alot of fun to watch. Ultimately, its a very direct plot with a very simple story and underlying point. Unlike the comic book movies, it develops very slowly, and those elements of story and plot are presented in a way that is rather opaque, requiring inference and deduction to follow the thread of them. There is almost a deliberate attempt to confuse the viewer. Sort of similar to something like Knight of Cups, for instance, but far more linear and action oriented. It's topical if not actually somewhat dated in topic with what seems to me a rather ham-handed covid overlay, but the atmospherics are quite artfully genius. They develop a sense of dark dread and menace, similar to movies from the 60's and '70's. Major facets of the underlying points that are made are via metaphor, again unlike the comic book films and somewhat of a throwback.

[Reefs]

I've got another movie I can recommend: The Grey (2011)




Set in Alaska, in the middle of winter, John Ottway (Liam Neeson) has been hired to protect the workers drilling for oil from being attacked by wolves while they are working outside. The people working and living there could be considered 'outcasts', who spend their days either working or drunk in a bar fighting. Ottway boards a plane to Anchorage but the plane gets lost in a major storm and crashes in the wilderness. There are less than 10 survivors and that number keeps shrinking as the film progresses. They stay at the wreckage for a day for shelter but lose one man to a wolf attack in the first night. Ottway, who understands wolves like no other, notices that the wolves left the body of their victim there, basically untouched, and is therefore convinced that they did this to tell the men that they don't belong here. Ottway speculates that they crashed right into their territory, probably close to their den. So he urges the other men to leave the wreckage and move out of the area so that the wolves will leave them alone. But they don't. They keep attacking. And so the group keeps losing men, either to the harsh weather conditions, or to the wolves that only seem to become more aggressive as the men - seemingly - move out of their territory.

In a sense, it is just another survival or disaster film - until the last scene, when the story suddenly takes an unexpected turn! So if you watch it, be sure to watch it till the end, the very end, past the credits! Without that last scene, I would have had no reason to recommend this film. That’s how important that last scene is. As the director says (paraphrasing): this last scene will piss off a lot of people, but it will also be the reason why this movie will be talked about for years to come… Exactly! Without that last scene, Ottway would just have been a depressed, grieving, suicidal nobody who ran away from life to the end of the world just to find a brutal and lonely end after a long streak of bad luck, crushed by the overwhelming, unforgiving forces of nature. But that last scene changes the entire tone of the movie, Ottway suddenly finds his will to live and with it an unknown inner strength and resolve that lets him stare his nemesis straight into the eye (see movie poster above), as if he is saying: "Alright, if that's what it comes down to, bring it on!"

[zazeniac]

Jan 6, 2022 11:16:19 GMT -5 Reefs said:

I've got another movie I can recommend: The Grey (2011)




Set in Alaska, in the middle of winter, John Ottway (Liam Neeson) has been hired to protect the workers drilling for oil from being attacked by wolves while they are working outside. The people working and living there could be considered 'outcasts', who spend their days either working or drunk in a bar fighting. Ottway boards a plane to Anchorage but the plane gets lost in a major storm and crashes in the wilderness. There are less than 10 survivors and that number keeps shrinking as the film progresses. They stay at the wreckage for a day for shelter but lose one man to a wolf attack in the first night. Ottway, who understands wolves like no other, notices that the wolves left the body of their victim there, basically untouched, and is therefore convinced that they did this to tell the men that they don't belong here. Ottway speculates that they crashed right into their territory, probably close to their den. So he urges the other men to leave the wreckage and move out of the area so that the wolves will leave them alone. But they don't. They keep attacking. And so the group keeps losing men, either to the harsh weather conditions, or to the wolves that only seem to become more aggressive as the men - seemingly - move out of their territory.

In a sense, it is just another survival or disaster film - until the last scene, when the story suddenly takes an unexpected turn! So if you watch it, be sure to watch it till the end, the very end, past the credits! Without that last scene, I would have had no reason to recommend this film. That’s how important that last scene is. As the director says (paraphrasing): this last scene will piss off a lot of people, but it will also be the reason why this movie will be talked about for years to come… Exactly! Without that last scene, Ottway would just have been a depressed, grieving, suicidal nobody who ran away from life to the end of the world just to find a brutal and lonely end after a long streak of bad luck, crushed by the overwhelming, unforgiving forces of nature. But that last scene changes the entire tone of the movie, Ottway suddenly finds his will to live and with it an unknown inner strength and resolve that lets him stare his nemesis straight into the eye (see movie poster above), as if he is saying: "Alright, if that's what it comes down to, bring it on!"

Along the same lines,  "Wind River." One of the best meting out justice scenes ever.

[Reefs]

Jan 7, 2022 9:31:46 GMT -5 zazeniac said:

Along the same lines,  "Wind River." One of the best meting out justice scenes ever.

I watched the trailer. Seems interesting. I'll make a mental note, thanks. How do you think both movies are similar?

One main theme of the The Grey is the topic of death, no doubt. There is a lot of dying happening in that movie, in all kinds of ways - but no matter how they die, in fear or in peace, there is no judgement, all that is shown is the complete, unedited rawness of the moment and how those who die and those who watch the other die try to come to terms with the inevitable, without any commentary or attempts to nudge the audience into a specific line of interpretation of events. The audience is free to come to their own conclusions, this even applies to the ending of the movie! And when some of the men find a brutal ending, like in many other movies of that genre, the graphic details are usually covered up under a thin layer of snow. Because showing gory details is not the point of the movie. The point of the movie is to show the spiritual component in all of this. Nature is shown as an overwhelming but also impersonal force man cannot negotiate with, and therefore has no choice but to find his place in it. The subtitle (and Ottway's motto in a sense) is: to life or die on this day. That's what it comes down to in the end, it's all about the here and now. It seems Ottway has to learn that lesson, he has a habit of daydreaming and running away from life, but he always gets thrown back into the harsh now reality, like when he dozes off into his favorite daydream on that fatal flight to Anchorage and then - boom! - plane crashes and he wakes up face down in the snow, in the middle of a blizzard, with only a sweater on. The harsh, unforgiving and impossible to ignore elements of nature that demand one to be fully present in order to make it in that kind of environment are a big part of the movie. One could even say, apart from Ottway, nature is the other main protagonist of the movie that by far overshadows Ottway. Even the wolves could be considered just an extension of nature, they just do what wolves do - no ultimate right or wrong in this. And Ottway is no match to that other protagonist for the entire movie, as he keeps running away - but only until that last scene, when there is no way out left, then he unexpectedly finds the strength to level the playing field.

In a sense, The Grey is almost like one of those traditional Chinese, Taoist paintings, where you have mostly just nature portrayed in its raw beauty, often half the canvas actually empty, and in some corner or a tiny spot in the distance, you see someone perfectly nestled into the scene. That's, I'd say, The Grey in a nutshell. On the surface level, it's not a movie for the faint-hearted, because what these men are going thru is a tough, trying and brutal experience, and it is shown in all its rawness. But by suspending judgement, or any ideas of right and wrong, or how things should or shouldn't be (even the ending is essentially open to interpretation!), and by just showing the way of nature so to speak, that's how the deeply spiritual side of that movie is shining thru.

Anyway, it's a great movie, in many respects. Great story, great directing, great acting by Liam Neeson, also great music, very subtle. IMO, the ending does offer the audience a rare opportunity for self-reflection, because the ending can be interpreted in more than one way, and how one will interpret it, I'd say very much depends on one's general approach to life, and what one expects from life, i.e. some tend to always see the glass half full, some tend to always see the glass half empty. And there is no ultimate right or wrong in this either.

[zazeniac]

Jan 8, 2022 10:57:51 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Jan 7, 2022 9:31:46 GMT -5 zazeniac said:

Along the same lines,  "Wind River." One of the best meting out justice scenes ever.

I watched the trailer. Seems interesting. I'll make a mental note, thanks. How do you think both movies are similar?

One main theme of the The Grey is the topic of death, no doubt. There is a lot of dying happening in that movie, in all kinds of ways - but no matter how they die, in fear or in peace, there is no judgement, all that is shown is the complete, unedited rawness of the moment and how those who die and those who watch the other die try to come to terms with the inevitable, without any commentary or attempts to nudge the audience into a specific line of interpretation of events. The audience is free to come to their own conclusions, this even applies to the ending of the movie! And when some of the men find a brutal ending, like in many other movies of that genre, the graphic details are usually covered up under a thin layer of snow. Because showing gory details is not the point of the movie. The point of the movie is to show the spiritual component in all of this. Nature is shown as an overwhelming but also impersonal force man cannot negotiate with, and therefore has no choice but to find his place in it. The subtitle (and Ottway's motto in a sense) is: to life or die on this day. That's what it comes down to in the end, it's all about the here and now. It seems Ottway has to learn that lesson, he has a habit of daydreaming and running away from life, but he always gets thrown back into the harsh now reality, like when he dozes off into his favorite daydream on that fatal flight to Anchorage and then - boom! - plane crashes and he wakes up face down in the snow, in the middle of a blizzard, with only a sweater on. The harsh, unforgiving and impossible to ignore elements of nature that demand one to be fully present in order to make it in that kind of environment are a big part of the movie. One could even say, apart from Ottway, nature is the other main protagonist of the movie that by far overshadows Ottway. Even the wolves could be considered just an extension of nature, they just do what wolves do - no ultimate right or wrong in this. And Ottway is no match to that other protagonist for the entire movie, as he keeps running away - but only until that last scene, when there is no way out left, then he unexpectedly finds the strength to level the playing field.

In a sense, The Grey is almost like one of those traditional Chinese, Taoist paintings, where you have mostly just nature portrayed in its raw beauty, often half the canvas actually empty, and in some corner or a tiny spot in the distance, you see someone perfectly nestled into the scene. That's, I'd say, The Grey in a nutshell. On the surface level, it's not a movie for the faint-hearted, because what these men are going thru is a tough, trying and brutal experience, and it is shown in all its rawness. But by suspending judgement, or any ideas of right and wrong, or how things should or shouldn't be (even the ending is essentially open to interpretation!), and by just showing the way of nature so to speak, that's how the deeply spiritual side of that movie is shining thru.

Anyway, it's a great movie, in many respects. Great story, great directing, great acting by Liam Neeson, also great music, very subtle. IMO, the ending does offer the audience a rare opportunity for self-reflection, because the ending can be interpreted in more than one way, and how one will interpret it, I'd say very much depends on one's general approach to life, and what one expects from life, i.e. some tend to always see the glass half full, some tend to always see the glass half empty. And there is no ultimate right or wrong in this either.

Haven't watched The Grey, but it's on my list. The protagonist in Wind River is a Forest Ranger employee ( sniper) who shoots wolves that have attacked livestock. Wind River is raw and unflinching. I'd say the main theme is courage and how it fits into a less homogenized scheme of justice.

[lolly]

I thought 'Don't Look Up' would have got a mention by now. Best thing I've seen in a long while.

[zendancer]

Jan 9, 2022 7:55:24 GMT -5 lolly said:

I thought 'Don't Look Up' would have got a mention by now. Best thing I've seen in a long while.

Very funny. Watched it twice. Being a paleontologist I knew what the Bronteroc was going to be before it showed up, but had no idea how it was going to show up.

On a more serious note, it's amazing that so few people seem to grasp what's happening regarding global warming and the inevitable consequences of it. At a 3 degree C rise in temp the planet as we know it will be toast. The Thwaites Glacier is like a finger in the d*ke, and when it breaks loose, folks who live on any coastline would be well advised to move to higher ground.

I can see why climate scientists enjoy this movie because they've been telling people about what's coming for the last thirty years, and very few people have taken their warnings with the degree of seriousness they deserve.

A non-comedy movie on this subject is "Burning"--a documentary about what happened in Australia two years ago. I was amazed to learn that during that catastrophe a fire cyclone lifted an 18 ton firetruck into the air. I knew about fire cyclones, but had no idea that they had such lifting power.

[lolly]

Jan 9, 2022 10:13:35 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Jan 9, 2022 7:55:24 GMT -5 lolly said:

I thought 'Don't Look Up' would have got a mention by now. Best thing I've seen in a long while.

Very funny. Watched it twice. Being a paleontologist I knew what the Bronteroc was going to be before it showed up, but had no idea how it was going to show up.

On a more serious note, it's amazing that so few people seem to grasp what's happening regarding global warming and the inevitable consequences of it. At a 3 degree C rise in temp the planet as we know it will be toast. The Thwaites Glacier is like a finger in the d*ke, and when it breaks loose, folks who live on any coastline would be well advised to move to higher ground.

I can see why climate scientists enjoy this movie because they've been telling people about what's coming for the last thirty years, and very few people have taken their warnings with the degree of seriousness they deserve.

A non-comedy movie on this subject is "Burning"--a documentary about what happened in Australia two years ago. I was amazed to learn that during that catastrophe a fire cyclone lifted an 18 ton firetruck into the air. I knew about fire cyclones, but had no idea that they had such lifting power.

I had no idea it was an analogy for global warming... because it was about an asteroid. To me it represented politics, media and 'likes' and meme culture. What I usually find in commentary is a tendency to mock 'something else' like politicians, influencers etc. but when I watched it I just appreciated how it made a mockery of me. I liked how in the end it all came down to a most mundane conversation about the most trivial things.

[Reefs]

THE MATRIX 4

I finally had a chance to watch Matrix 4. I've read some bad reviews, people complaining about too much wokery, but it's not that bad, actually. In terms of directing and acting it's probably a bit underwhelming compared to the first Matrix movie and the others as well, and the story line isn't all that great. However, there is one aspect of the story that I found really fascinating, because the movie somewhat poses the same question we sometimes are seeing asked here on the forum: Once you are awake, does this prevent you from ever falling asleep again? - And the movie somewhat tries to answer that question. The movie starts with Neo being fully plugged into the Matrix again, still having some vague memories of being awake, but now trying really hard to get comfy in the Matrix, actually popping blue pills and doing psychotherapy! And as it turns out later, his psychotherapist, who professes to help him and free him (from his delusions), is actually the one who enslaves him, who is responsible for Neo not remembering who he really is, for not allowing him to live his true potential. So the therapist, in a sense, is the ultimate enforcer of the Matrix. Now, that's an interesting concept if we take this as an analogy and apply it to our 'real' world. Where do our limiting beliefs come from? Who enforces them? Some food for thought.

[inavalan]

Jan 25, 2022 22:55:12 GMT -5 Reefs said:

THE MATRIX 4

I finally had a chance to watch Matrix 4. I've read some bad reviews, people complaining about too much wokery, but it's not that bad, actually. In terms of directing and acting it's probably a bit underwhelming compared to the first Matrix movie and the others as well, and the story line isn't all that great. However, there is one aspect of the story that I found really fascinating, because the movie somewhat poses the same question we sometimes are seeing asked here on the forum: Once you are awake, does this prevent you from ever falling asleep again? - And the movie somewhat tries to answer that question. The movie starts with Neo being fully plugged into the Matrix again, still having some vague memories of being awake, but now trying really hard to get comfy in the Matrix, actually popping blue pills and doing psychotherapy! And as it turns out later, his psychotherapist, who professes to help him and free him (from his delusions), is actually the one who enslaves him, who is responsible for Neo not remembering who he really is, for not allowing him to live his true potential. So the therapist, in a sense, is the ultimate enforcer of the Matrix. Now, that's an interesting concept if we take this as an analogy and apply it to our 'real' world. Where do our limiting beliefs come from? Who enforces them? Some food for thought.

Important and useful questions!

A limiting belief is the result of an emotional misinterpretation ot the symbolism of some very specific events your ego experienced. Your ego's lack of lucidity, and deafness to your inner guidance "enforce" it.

With help from your inner guidance, you can identify the limiting belief that is the root cause of whatever you are concerned or intrigued about, and pinpoint the event and the moment that belief was established. Then, working with your subconscious, you can suspend and  / or substitute it.

[Reefs]

Jan 26, 2022 2:28:34 GMT -5 inavalan said:

Jan 25, 2022 22:55:12 GMT -5 Reefs said:

THE MATRIX 4

I finally had a chance to watch Matrix 4. I've read some bad reviews, people complaining about too much wokery, but it's not that bad, actually. In terms of directing and acting it's probably a bit underwhelming compared to the first Matrix movie and the others as well, and the story line isn't all that great. However, there is one aspect of the story that I found really fascinating, because the movie somewhat poses the same question we sometimes are seeing asked here on the forum: Once you are awake, does this prevent you from ever falling asleep again? - And the movie somewhat tries to answer that question. The movie starts with Neo being fully plugged into the Matrix again, still having some vague memories of being awake, but now trying really hard to get comfy in the Matrix, actually popping blue pills and doing psychotherapy! And as it turns out later, his psychotherapist, who professes to help him and free him (from his delusions), is actually the one who enslaves him, who is responsible for Neo not remembering who he really is, for not allowing him to live his true potential. So the therapist, in a sense, is the ultimate enforcer of the Matrix. Now, that's an interesting concept if we take this as an analogy and apply it to our 'real' world. Where do our limiting beliefs come from? Who enforces them? Some food for thought.

Important and useful questions!

A limiting belief is the result of an emotional misinterpretation ot the symbolism of some very specific events your ego experienced. Your ego's lack of lucidity, and deafness to your inner guidance "enforce" it.

With help from your inner guidance, you can identify the limiting belief that is the root cause of whatever you are concerned or intrigued about, and pinpoint the event and the moment that belief was established. Then, working with your subconscious, you can suspend and  / or substitute it.

Yes, inner guidance. In a way, that's also how the movie solves that riddle. Neo and Tiffany (aka Trinity) appear fully integrated into the Matrix again, and yet they somehow feel out of place and by following that feeling down to its origins, they are eventually able break free again. As in the other Matrix movies, there are people outside the Matrix that enter the Matrix and then help those stuck there to break out of the Matrix. However, they have a rule that they don't help people out who don't actually want to. And that actually was the challenge with Tiffany/Trinity. The new version of the Matrix was so constructed that Tiffany/Trinity would never have a chance to ask any existential questions, let alone pursue them and make up her own mind. There was always a distraction available to catch her attention and lead her off track back into the Matrix again. Quite a fascinating process to witness if you take this as an analogy for socialization in general.

[inavalan]

Jan 26, 2022 13:16:09 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Jan 26, 2022 2:28:34 GMT -5 inavalan said:

Important and useful questions!

A limiting belief is the result of an emotional misinterpretation ot the symbolism of some very specific events your ego experienced. Your ego's lack of lucidity, and deafness to your inner guidance "enforce" it.

With help from your inner guidance, you can identify the limiting belief that is the root cause of whatever you are concerned or intrigued about, and pinpoint the event and the moment that belief was established. Then, working with your subconscious, you can suspend and  / or substitute it.

Yes, inner guidance. In a way, that's also how the movie solves that riddle. Neo and Tiffany (aka Trinity) appear fully integrated into the Matrix again, and yet they somehow feel out of place and by following that feeling down to its origins, they are eventually able break free again. As in the other Matrix movies, there are people outside the Matrix that enter the Matrix and then help those stuck there to break out of the Matrix. However, they have a rule that they don't help people out who don't actually want to. And that actually was the challenge with Tiffany/Trinity. The new version of the Matrix was so constructed that Tiffany/Trinity would never have a chance to ask any existential questions, let alone pursue them and make up her own mind. There was always a distraction available to catch her attention and lead her off track back into the Matrix again. Quite a fascinating process to witness if you take this as an analogy for socialization in general.

Thanks. It sounds interesting!

I believe that everyone should do only whatever they think is right, according only to their own judgement and intuition, inner guidance too if they're open to it . That way they aren't conditioned by others' limiting beliefs, and are limited only by the level of evolvement of their own personality. They'll come back again and again until they get it right.

If one's personality is evolved enough, they are less hypnotizable by society. That hypnotizing isn't done by an evil or malevolent force or entity, but it is the result of mass ignorance, which is a multi-level natural temporary state on the path of evolvement each personality follows.

A child is ignorant because he is a child. He is influenced / hypnotized and forms all kind of beliefs. Some children learn better and quicker, others later and more painfully, but this is because they are just physical incarnations of personalities with various levels of evolvement.

[laughter]

Jan 25, 2022 22:55:12 GMT -5 Reefs said:

THE MATRIX 4

I finally had a chance to watch Matrix 4. I've read some bad reviews, people complaining about too much wokery, but it's not that bad, actually. In terms of directing and acting it's probably a bit underwhelming compared to the first Matrix movie and the others as well, and the story line isn't all that great. However, there is one aspect of the story that I found really fascinating, because the movie somewhat poses the same question we sometimes are seeing asked here on the forum: Once you are awake, does this prevent you from ever falling asleep again? - And the movie somewhat tries to answer that question. The movie starts with Neo being fully plugged into the Matrix again, still having some vague memories of being awake, but now trying really hard to get comfy in the Matrix, actually popping blue pills and doing psychotherapy! And as it turns out later, his psychotherapist, who professes to help him and free him (from his delusions), is actually the one who enslaves him, who is responsible for Neo not remembering who he really is, for not allowing him to live his true potential. So the therapist, in a sense, is the ultimate enforcer of the Matrix. Now, that's an interesting concept if we take this as an analogy and apply it to our 'real' world. Where do our limiting beliefs come from? Who enforces them? Some food for thought.

Trying to avoid spoilers, but as to the question of "losing it". The short-winded bottom line is that it's the same sort of misconception as self-inquiry itself, but that fact only benefits the questioner in a very narrow set of circumstances. Dooooooofus Guy isn't wrong when he says "heh heh .. you could get hit in the head by a 2x4 .. heh heh". His dooooofus logic is actually toad-a-ly impeccable. What happened to Richard Rose near the end of his life is often cited as an example. Of course, it's a matter of existential context and the pointer that no person ever gets enlightened applies directly.

Nuanced topics arise above that bottom line: the notions of embodiment, the "natural state", the informing of mind, and the difference between experience and realization. You can never "unsee" a significant existential realization. Even if you consciously and deliberately try. As for the experience of life after, the exact same conditions and conditioning expressed in personal, relative terms are operative in the instants before, and after realization. The potential for that conditioning to radically and swiftly change will depend on precisely what those conditions were at the time.

In terms of the dream metaphor, Top' put it really well all those years ago, and that's where the current cultural metaphor of awakening hits an obvious wall. One way to approach this is to the translate and apply the idea of conditions and conditioning directly to the dream metaphor. There's always some sort of dynamic content appearing to present in subject/object terms for as long as you draw breath. In commonsense terms, "life goes on". IOW, in relative terms, there is no absolute perspective outside of some dream. But, admitting that to D.G. might be doing him a disservice. In my mind, that would depend on the specifics of the dialog - the person, where he or she is, and what their current questions are. Seems to me it might confuse someone who hasn't yet realized the nature of thingness.

I've mentioned this before - perhaps even in this thread - that a movie that explores false awakening is An American Werewolf in London. Probly not the first, but one of the funnest. Do you notice how this relates to the lucid dreamer's interest in this topic? The interest that sometimes drifts toward solipsism?