Is enlightenment a prize?

[no1]

Hello everyone my first post

Interesting site, I read through some of the topics, and must say that I noticed a lot of open-mindedness. (more than a psychiatrist would consider healthy ;D)

As many of you have noticed, there is a tendency among us to; look forward to the future enlightenment with all its benefits (such as relief, joy, intelligence etc.)

When we see this problem we can ask: "is there a problem at all?" "I'm not enlightened, I do not truly know what that means -if it means anything"
So what is the problem?

And I have no doubt that it will not be long before a problem is detected.
And from there we can begin, -with something real- and ask: "why do I have this problem?"
And if we understand why, we can ask: "can I find the root of this problem so it can be completely resolved?"

"I am greedy, I want to be more intelligent, why?"
"because I'm competitive, and so is the world around me"

"I want relief, so I hope for enlightenment, and that hope is an escape, -which doesn't really bring relief- so I am left with my pain, but now that is what motivates my investigation"

All the best.

[astenny]

As my old philosophy teacher often said, one should never begin a statement or an argument with a sweeping generalization. A statement can often be right, but that doesn't mean it is always right.

Such as wanting to be more intelligent. I am not greedy about it, and will share any knowledge I gain from my pursuits. The purpose, for me, is not to compete but simply to expand my horizons and improve myself.

Then there is the misunderstanding that enlightenment is an escape or relief. You say we cannot know what it is, and there is truth in that. It would be like explaining a rose to someone who has never seen it. I can explain the color, shape, and smell, but it is nothing next to the actual experience.

There may be those who hope that enlightenment frees them from pain, but they have much to learn. The path to it can be hard and painful, and deflects many until they are ready.

[no1]

Oh my...

I anticipated some pride in here, but never expected I'd strike the main nerve...

[Peter]

I think you might be picking up on something that isn't there, no1. I didn't detect any reactive element from astenny, just a response. He didn't seem offended to me.

Was it not the reaction you were looking for? If not, what would have been?

Welcome to the board.

P

[zendancer]

no1: I really like your screen name, but like Peter, I didn't detect anything negative in Astenny's response. As for enlightenment, let me assure you that only one or two major things will change as a result of that experience. First, your search for understanding will come to an end. You will no longer be seeking anything. Second, you will know that you are not John Doe and that John Doe was a figment of your imagination. You will know who you are in a very visceral sense--through your body rather than through your intellect. Third, you will see yourself wherever you look. You will concretely know that who you are is what is and that every person you meet is that same isness. Other minor things may also change. You will probably react to people differently than before and many of your past attitudes, ideas, and beliefs will change or fall away. But, life, in general, will continue much as before. Do not expect endless bliss and joy. If you stump your toe, it will still hurt. You will still get sick. You will probably still go to work. Your friends and family will be unlikely to recognize your awakening (in fact, they may be the least likely to recognize it). Nevertheless, you will be endlessly thankful that you understand what's going on, and you will have a continuing joy in perceiving the perfection of reality. Ramesh Balsekar used to joke with people and say, "If you have a choice between enlightenment and a million bucks, take the money." He probably said this because spiritual seekers seem to suffer a great deal with the affliction of wanting to wake up. However, I suspect that anyone who has awakened would not be willing to trade a billion dollars for what they discovered. That discovery is priceless. Cheers.

[lightmystic]

Don't worry No1. I don't think there is an overwhelm of pride in this forum, and your words, to my perception, have not been met with offense by anyone here.

A point that I appreciate about what you're saying is that the very reason people want Enlightenment is the very thing that's in the way.

People want Enlightenment so they can have only pleasure and avoid pain. Ironically, it's the very fixation on pleasure and aversion of pain that is in the way in the first place. It's Resistance.

When everything is allowed, pleasure, pain, etc., then we can start to see what is already going on, what has always been already going on, and then comes a peace that is so all encompassing that it's worth accepting any amount of pleasure or pain just to have that peace.

Perhaps you relate to what I'm saying?

Aug 6, 2009 9:12:23 GMT -5 no1 said:

Hello everyone my first post

Interesting site, I read through some of the topics, and must say that I noticed a lot of open-mindedness. (more than a psychiatrist would consider healthy ;D)

As many of you have noticed, there is a tendency among us to; look forward to the future enlightenment with all its benefits (such as relief, joy, intelligence etc.)

When we see this problem we can ask: "is there a problem at all?" "I'm not enlightened, I do not truly know what that means -if it means anything"
So what is the problem?

And I have no doubt that it will not be long before a problem is detected.
And from there we can begin, -with something real- and ask: "why do I have this problem?"
And if we understand why, we can ask: "can I find the root of this problem so it can be completely resolved?"

"I am greedy, I want to be more intelligent, why?"
"because I'm competitive, and so is the world around me"

"I want relief, so I hope for enlightenment, and that hope is an escape, -which doesn't really bring relief- so I am left with my pain, but now that is what motivates my investigation"

All the best.

[fear]

zendancer,

in enlightenment you won't know anything.

take the million bucks is very good advice, what else is there to take, no one can give you reality.

the discovery is not priceless, it costs you your life

[zendancer]

Fear: I was fascinated by your ideas and responses to my above posting (as well as your screen name) so I spent an hour this afternoon reading lots of your posts on this site. You are an interesting individual and, despite a certain cynicism and frustration, seem quite committed to finding the truth. You appear to have a strong sense of "don't know" about many things, and that is great, but keep in mind that the actions of enlightened individuals are equally unpredictable. Korean Zen Master Ko Bong was enlightened, but he was also an alcoholic. Japanese Zen Master Ikkyu was enlightened, but he committed suicide. Some enlightened people are very peaceful and others have a hell of a temper. Some teachers are as kind as a grandmother and other teachers will cut your legs off at the knees. Some enlightened people are vegetarians and others eat meat. Some enlightened people will not touch a gun, and other enlightened people will blow away certain animals. (Remember the famous Zen story of the monk who sees a guy mowing down people with a machine gun? A priest walks by and says to himself, "The Bible says, 'Thou shalt not kill,' and watches what is happening helplessly. The Zen monk, untroubled by thoughts of holy or unholy, whips out a knife and cuts the machine-gun guy's head off.) Any idea about what an enlightened life should look like is just another idea to toss on the big idea scrap pile.

I have a good friend who is a country music star and is also an enlightened teacher. He got an email recently from someone who chastised him for not being sympathetic to some of his ideas. My friend responded with an email that said, "This path is not for pussies!" The person wrote back and said, "You're an asshole, and its obvious that you're not enlightened." My friend wrote back and said, "Even an asshole can point to the truth." A few weeks later, the guy wrote to my friend, apologized, admitted that he had been put off by the hard-nosed tactics, and asked for continued instruction. He had given up his arrogance and opened his mind to a considerable degree.

Your three comments were as follows:

"In enlightenment you won;t know anything." I'm not quite sure what you meant by this, but I hope you realize that an enlightened person still knows how to drive a car, earn a living, go dancing with her husband, and teach about the spiritual path. An enlightened person knows the difference between what things are and how things can be cognized or imagined. An enlightened person knows who she is beyond all ideas. An enlightened person is capable of seeing reality directly as well as imagining meta-realities, and knows the difference between the two. An enlightened person knows how to shift between knowing and not-knowing at will. Perhaps your use of the word "know" was meant in some other sense?

The Ramesh joke was meant to be taken as a joke. He meant that the choice was between a million bucks and giving up the spiritual search. From reading your posts I doubt that you would take a million bucks in exchange for giving up the search for truth. If you find what you are searching for, and I think you will, I am 99% certain that you would not trade that knowledge for any amount of money. (I'm not 100% certain because the universe is so mysterious that there might be one weird person out there who would take the money and choose to return to a state of ignorance just for fun. LOL)

You also wrote: "the discovery is not priceless, it costs you your life." Well, not exactly. It will cost you all of your conventional ideas about life, and you will have to give up your current idea of who you think you are, but you will still be alive. I suspect that what you meant was what Bunan meant when he wrote, "Die, and be completely dead. Then, do whatever you will; it will all be good." There are several great quotes along this same line, but they are all metaphors. The death being referred to is the death of personal selfhood.

At any rate, I enjoyed reading your comments today, and will look forward to hearing from you in the future. Best of luck.

[zendancer]

Fear: When I posted my reply to you, the website changed three off-color words I included, so part of the posting will sound a little weird. Now that I know the site is programmed to re-word this sort of stuff, I'll choose my words more carefully. It's too bad, because the humor of what I wrote was lost in the translation. Be aware that I did not quote my friend's word as "girl thingy", and use your imagination. In the following lines my friend was called something objectionable and he responded appropriately. Too bad you couldn't read the exact words. The translation was poor. Cheers

[divinity]

Before enlightenment you carry the water and the wood, and after enlightenment you carry the water and the wood.
It is more of a change in perception than it is a prize.

[fear]

Zendancer, I just saw your reply. I still find my responses true to me.

We know it all, we know too much, that's why when we look at something we know (or think we do) everything about it. We see things as we want to see them not as they are.

U.G Krishnamurti, upon his awakening asked his friend 4 or 5 times on different occasions,

Q: What is that?
A: a cow

and the same thing happened over and over again. He did not know what he was looking at. There was a complete silence. There wasn't a flood of thoughts telling him what that was.

When he looked at the cow, he was the cow.

Adyashati said that same thing. He looked at a bird and he was the bird. That is enlightenment. You will see things as they are, not as you want them to be. So you will know nothing. You won't have prior knowledge to anthing. You will be pure Awareness.

I get the Ramesh joke, but it's also a fact. You can't take enlightenment like you can take money. That's why he says take the money. It's funny but he means exactly that. An enlightened being would not mislead you even for a joke. He means that the money because you can't take enlightenment so you might as well get something out of it. Money is very important in life, so I would take the money. Only I can awaken to who I am, no one can give it to me.

If you are sleeping and I come along and try and give you awakeness, how can I do that. I can shake you, but you do the waking up, not me.

So maybe I'd take a good shake over a million dollars, but then again who is the I, isn't it the ego? Why would the ego want to be shaken into non existence.

Enlightenment costing you your life did mean your ego and not your physical life. But in enlightenment, one is ready to die at any moment, there is no fear of death, so life and death does not matter at that point. U.G also said that he has no way of knowing that he is alive or dead. There only is. There is no one there anymore. The driver of the mind is gone. So there is no interpretation of anything.

Be careful of who you belive is enlightened. There are no authorities on the subject. I doubt an enlightened being would commit suicide. Doesn't that indicate self hatred. The same with the alcoholic, he could not be an alcoholic after awakening, maybe before, but not after because an alcoholic is either running from who they are, or masking something. Don't get me wrong, some of the wisest and smartest people I know are alcoholics. Don't know why that is.

[divinity]

When the veil of illusion falls... or is ripped off... one can finally see.

Many alcoholics are undiagnosed bi polar disorder folks who can be extremely intelligent and thinking not only out of the box but out of the reality most of us agree to believe. The 12 step program is a very high spiritual path. Recently I went with friends to an AA, GA and NA meetings and have been delighted at the openness and trust happening there.