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Post by lolly on Nov 9, 2013 3:49:23 GMT -5
Greetings.. Lots of things are done without a conscious choice. and yet there is mind involvement on a slightly more subtle level. Most folks don't breathe properly, which is to say they breathe in a shallow way, from the upper chest muscles. It's just the natural tendency toward laziness, but laziness involves choice. Breathing is also abated in times of sudden fear or shock. If breathing 'just happened', one would expect it to 'just happen' correctly and predictably. You need air just as you need food. You wouldn't say eating 'just happens'. No. Mr Webster says "the power to make your own choices or decisions." The occurrence of a choice happening does not prove that it is made of your own power. There are occurrences where choices are made by the experiencer's own volition.. and there are occurrences where there are no choices available.. both conditions actually happen. To claim either as the 'only' actuality, requires belief/faith that the other actuality doesn't exist though it is self-evident.. Anyone can choose to stop breathing, but the methods for actualizing that choice are radical.. to actually believe that there is no volition requires the volition to deny what is self-evident.. to insist that 'no volition' is the case, requires the volition to pursue a result not supported by any evidence that doesn't require belief in ideas or imaginings.. and, the discussion itself is a choice to shift awareness from what is actually happening, to thoughts about the happening.. Be well.. That's what I was saying. The breath just goes as it will, or I can affect the change in my breath... then I die. Teehee |
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Post by lolly on Nov 9, 2013 3:57:20 GMT -5
There's not really much control, but through listing things that I am both willing to do and able to achieve I see my predetermined vision occur. Of course this describes a plan of action. That entails envisioning the outcomes first, and then determining a course of action. I think the mistake we make philosophically is attempting to ascertain if I control the outcome or if I am subject to circumstances. Personally, I think of all this as an interactive process which deals with the things I can control and the things I can't... and navigating the world through doing the former while accepting the latter... because you know what they say about 'the best laid plans...'. On a philosophical level, I frame the universe as being something I observe as it observes me, so I believe in 'a conscious universe' or the universe as energy, qi, life force. In day to day life I'm not 'the observer'; I'm actively engaged as a force in the environment, and clarity of vision, alertness of attention and intensity of concentration are the driving factors of the confidence and activity that enables me to adapt my surrounds. By the same token, I also adapt to the changing surrounds as being partial to it. I think it's difficult to reconcile whether I 'LOA' my environment or I am formed by it, because it's true I'm basically the sum of all my past, yet on the other hand, a person can have anything they want in life... and at the same time, one can only ever expect the unexpected. I'm dealing with a paradox. This means, If I have a bunch of stuff to do or want a particular outcome, I make a list and proceed with tasks in a sensible order, so I don't forget anything and I get it done in time. That's how it manifests in my life. That's how it manifests in my life too. Though I wouldn't ever claim to be particularly goal oriented. My wife would love it if I'd become more enthralled with checklists. I don't really believe a person can have anything they want in life. That seems very rosy to me. Are you a Law of Attraction believer? NO. I believe one can complete the tasks on their list. I agree 'anything' is really an extreme. We can get what we want to a great degree, just do what's on the list. The list is steps taken. You know the cliché... it's a journey, take the middle way. (Smiles) |
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Post by tzujanli on Nov 9, 2013 7:10:17 GMT -5
Greetings.. That's how it manifests in my life too. Though I wouldn't ever claim to be particularly goal oriented. My wife would love it if I'd become more enthralled with checklists. I don't really believe a person can have anything they want in life. That seems very rosy to me. Are you a Law of Attraction believer? NO. I believe one can complete the tasks on their list. I agree 'anything' is really an extreme. We can get what we want to a great degree, just do what's on the list. The list is steps taken. You know the cliché... it's a journey, take the middle way. (Smiles) "Faith without works is dead", want without the deeds necessary to manifest the want, is empty baggage, and.. great expectations breed great disappointments.. What is it that is present when the mind is still and silent? What was happening before the mind falls silent and still, continues without the mind's divided attention, where the mind is holding onto beliefs and knowings and perceiving its existence.. the experiencer perceives through the mind's filter/structure of beliefs and knowings which distorts the perception of what is actually happening.. Seeing/experiencing what is happening through the clarity of a still mind's perception, there is no 'want' or 'expectation', there is the awareness of what is real.. want transforms into doing, and expectation turns into manifestation.. the difference is between believing in imagined mindscapes or integrating the experiencer's role with the whole organic process of existing.. Be well.. |
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Post by lolly on Nov 9, 2013 8:08:50 GMT -5
Greetings.. NO. I believe one can complete the tasks on their list. I agree 'anything' is really an extreme. We can get what we want to a great degree, just do what's on the list. The list is steps taken. You know the cliché... it's a journey, take the middle way. (Smiles) "Faith without works is dead", want without the deeds necessary to manifest the want, is empty baggage, and.. great expectations breed great disappointments.. What is it that is present when the mind is still and silent? What was happening before the mind falls silent and still, continues without the mind's divided attention, where the mind is holding onto beliefs and knowings and perceiving its existence.. the experiencer perceives through the mind's filter/structure of beliefs and knowings which distorts the perception of what is actually happening.. Seeing/experiencing what is happening through the clarity of a still mind's perception, there is no 'want' or 'expectation', there is the awareness of what is real.. want transforms into doing, and expectation turns into manifestation.. the difference is between believing in imagined mindscapes or integrating the experiencer's role with the whole organic process of existing.. Be well.. Things are hard to do, so it takes work. It's much better to have a calm disposition than to feel anxiety about difficulties, but nerves are also a barometer for how much one cares about what they do. Even though the plan is carefully considered and the process is highly organized, one can never know what to expect in each moment of the action. If you're in there heart and soul doing the best that is possible, it's just doing and responding momentarily to whatever happens to be, and generally speaking... the final outcomes are close to what was planned. True enough to say that the expectation turns into manifestation... and integration with the process is key. Not to say that can't be disappointing at times, it can be. I think when one really cares about what their trying to do, there will be some disappointments. Beats apathy though. Then there's a time where it can all be put aside, and it's so important to be comfortable about doing that, for the sake of sanity. |
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Post by enigma on Nov 9, 2013 12:08:38 GMT -5
Greetings.. Lots of things are done without a conscious choice. and yet there is mind involvement on a slightly more subtle level. Most folks don't breathe properly, which is to say they breathe in a shallow way, from the upper chest muscles. It's just the natural tendency toward laziness, but laziness involves choice. Breathing is also abated in times of sudden fear or shock. If breathing 'just happened', one would expect it to 'just happen' correctly and predictably. You need air just as you need food. You wouldn't say eating 'just happens'. No. Mr Webster says "the power to make your own choices or decisions." The occurrence of a choice happening does not prove that it is made of your own power. There are occurrences where choices are made by the experiencer's own volition.. and there are occurrences where there are no choices available.. both conditions actually happen. To claim either as the 'only' actuality, requires belief/faith that the other actuality doesn't exist though it is self-evident.. Anyone can choose to stop breathing, but the methods for actualizing that choice are radical.. to actually believe that there is no volition requires the volition to deny what is self-evident.. to insist that 'no volition' is the case, requires the volition to pursue a result not supported by any evidence that doesn't require belief in ideas or imaginings.. and, the discussion itself is a choice to shift awareness from what is actually happening, to thoughts about the happening.. Be well.. The belief in volition results in a process of conscious choosing that conforms to that belief. The believer then points to the conscious choosing as self evident verification of his belief in his own volition. If you believe you are king of the world and print stationary with a letterhead stating that you are king of the world, that letterhead is not self evident proof that you are king of the world. It's just an expression of your beliefs. |
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Post by enigma on Nov 9, 2013 12:33:21 GMT -5
Yeah, I would think a sense of eternal self would be an identification with an idea that contradicts personal experience at every turn. Googling Urban Dictionary as the uncontested authority on such matters..... "Abbreviation for: you only live once The dumbass's excuse for something stupid that they did Also one of the most annoying abbreviations ever...."  ... and one identified with their body only, in terms of the limit of their skin, will not have a sense of eternity. Yeah, a sense of eternity is not something a person can reach for as their 'reach exceeds their grasp'. |
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Post by enigma on Nov 9, 2013 12:46:33 GMT -5
Greetings.. Hi Lolly: What happens if you let go of the concepts that create the conflict between 'LOA' or being a product of your environment? in other words, here you are, now, and whether you choose to believe 'LOA' got you here or your environment created you, you're still here, now.. There are many factors that are beyond my ability to control, and there are many 'rites of passage' on our journey through existence, birth and death being notably unavoidable.. what i cannot control i can understand, what i can't understand i can explore.. in all cases, i can choose how i understand my existence, i can see obstacles or opportunities.. i can see 'illusions/imagined mindscapes', or i can simply 'see'.. Is the "unexpected" an obstacle or an opportunity? it is my understanding that the difference between obstacle and opportunity is a choice made prior to the experience, the choice 'see' what is actually happening.. Be well.. Personally, I don't experience conflict between LOAing everything or being formed by the environment. I'm just familiar with the LOA concept and the concept of conditioning. Moreso, it's the opinion of other people that we create our lives or we are completely subjects of circumstance due our non-existence. I understand that the advocates of such positions do not know if those positions are true or not, but they seem resolute in their stances none-the-less. In my own experience, I can draw conclusions base in insights, but these are always invalidated in other circumstances. The basis of the observation is the noticing of what is, as that pertains to me personally. The experience is shared in the spirit of compassion, but not told and taught and pointed etc. I mean a pointer is basically saying 'Look how xen enlightened I am'... as though I actually give a darn. Every day, There are obstacles and opportunities, and all people have strengths and weaknesses... and I don't understand my existence at all... I never know what to expect... and sometime life is about full efforts and othertimes it's like take it as it comes. The main thing is, don't make little boxes out of drawn conclusions. I think life is about responding appropriately. How do you know when to dismiss what others say as opinion and trying to look xen enlightened? Or is that position always taken? |
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Post by runstill on Nov 9, 2013 17:52:39 GMT -5
Greetings.. Hi Lolly: What happens if you let go of the concepts that create the conflict between 'LOA' or being a product of your environment? in other words, here you are, now, and whether you choose to believe 'LOA' got you here or your environment created you, you're still here, now.. There are many factors that are beyond my ability to control, and there are many 'rites of passage' on our journey through existence, birth and death being notably unavoidable.. what i cannot control i can understand, what i can't understand i can explore.. in all cases, i can choose how i understand my existence, i can see obstacles or opportunities.. i can see 'illusions/imagined mindscapes', or i can simply 'see'.. Is the "unexpected" an obstacle or an opportunity? it is my understanding that the difference pbetween obstacle and opportunity is a choice made prior to the experience, the choice 'see' what is actually happening.. Be well.. Personally, I don't experience conflict between LOAing everything or being formed by the environment. I'm just familiar with the LOA concept and the concept of conditioning. Moreso, it's the opinion of other people that we create our lives or we are completely subjects of circumstance due our non-existence. I understand that the advocates of such positions do not know if those positions are true or not, but they seem resolute in their stances none-the-less. In my own experience, I can draw conclusions base in insights, but these are always invalidated in other circumstances. The basis of the observation is the noticing of what is, as that pertains to me personally. The experience is shared in the spirit of compassion, but not told and taught and pointed etc.
I mean a pointer is basically saying 'Look how xen enlightened I am'... as though I actually give a darn.
Every day, There are obstacles and opportunities, and all people have strengths and weaknesses... and I don't understand my existence at all... I never know what to expect... and sometime life is about full efforts and othertimes it's like take it as it comes. The main thing is, don't make little boxes out of drawn conclusions. I think life is about responding appropriately. I think a true pointer points back to that which you are. |
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Post by lolly on Nov 9, 2013 20:12:48 GMT -5
Personally, I don't experience conflict between LOAing everything or being formed by the environment. I'm just familiar with the LOA concept and the concept of conditioning. Moreso, it's the opinion of other people that we create our lives or we are completely subjects of circumstance due our non-existence. I understand that the advocates of such positions do not know if those positions are true or not, but they seem resolute in their stances none-the-less. In my own experience, I can draw conclusions base in insights, but these are always invalidated in other circumstances. The basis of the observation is the noticing of what is, as that pertains to me personally. The experience is shared in the spirit of compassion, but not told and taught and pointed etc.
I mean a pointer is basically saying 'Look how xen enlightened I am'... as though I actually give a darn.
Every day, There are obstacles and opportunities, and all people have strengths and weaknesses... and I don't understand my existence at all... I never know what to expect... and sometime life is about full efforts and othertimes it's like take it as it comes. The main thing is, don't make little boxes out of drawn conclusions. I think life is about responding appropriately. I think a true pointer points back to that which you are. A true pointer... I don't believe that there are pointers. It's just a role some people assume. I mean, that's what I think, so I suppose than means I look to myself for what's true for me instead of believing some other guy. Revering these people gives them influence, and followers try to reconcile their own life with what like Mooji said, for example. See these satsangs where Mooji reads his audience's questions and then pretends he can answer them? The questioner believes Mooji and never actually finds out for themselves ay? |
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Post by laughter on Nov 10, 2013 0:42:18 GMT -5
I think a true pointer points back to that which you are. A true pointer... I don't believe that there are pointers. It's just a role some people assume. I mean, that's what I think, so I suppose than means I look to myself for what's true for me instead of believing some other guy. Revering these people gives them influence, and followers try to reconcile their own life with what like Mooji said, for example. See these satsangs where Mooji reads his audience's questions and then pretends he can answer them? The questioner believes Mooji and never actually finds out for themselves ay? I took RS to be referring to the words not the person who says them. |
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Post by enigma on Nov 10, 2013 3:37:20 GMT -5
I think a true pointer points back to that which you are. A true pointer... I don't believe that there are pointers. It's just a role some people assume. I mean, that's what I think, so I suppose than means I look to myself for what's true for me instead of believing some other guy. Revering these people gives them influence, and followers try to reconcile their own life with what like Mooji said, for example. See these satsangs where Mooji reads his audience's questions and then pretends he can answer them? The questioner believes Mooji and never actually finds out for themselves ay? So if you find something that's true, you can't talk about it because that would be a pointer and there's no such thing, right? |
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Post by lolly on Nov 10, 2013 4:19:20 GMT -5
A true pointer... I don't believe that there are pointers. It's just a role some people assume. I mean, that's what I think, so I suppose than means I look to myself for what's true for me instead of believing some other guy. Revering these people gives them influence, and followers try to reconcile their own life with what like Mooji said, for example. See these satsangs where Mooji reads his audience's questions and then pretends he can answer them? The questioner believes Mooji and never actually finds out for themselves ay? So if you find something that's true, you can't talk about it because that would be a pointer and there's no such thing, right? When we speak of 'pointing', we mean the pointing at the Truth with a capital T (pointing at the moon). The believer needs to revere the speaker because if not, the speaker is just a person the same as they are. If the speaker is just another person, their words aren't believed as Truth, but possibly agreed or disagreed with. I can talk about things that are true, but I can't 'point at the moon'. |
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Post by laughter on Nov 10, 2013 11:00:39 GMT -5
So if you find something that's true, you can't talk about it because that would be a pointer and there's no such thing, right? When we speak of 'pointing', we mean the pointing at the Truth with a capital T (pointing at the moon). The believer needs to revere the speaker because if not, the speaker is just a person the same as they are. If the speaker is just another person, their words aren't believed as Truth, but possibly agreed or disagreed with. I can talk about things that are true, but I can't 'point at the moon'. There are no speakers that are not people. |
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Post by enigma on Nov 10, 2013 11:59:12 GMT -5
So if you find something that's true, you can't talk about it because that would be a pointer and there's no such thing, right? When we speak of 'pointing', we mean the pointing at the Truth with a capital T (pointing at the moon). The believer needs to revere the speaker because if not, the speaker is just a person the same as they are. If the speaker is just another person, their words aren't believed as Truth, but possibly agreed or disagreed with. I can talk about things that are true, but I can't 'point at the moon'. Trust is useful in encouraging one to look in the direction of the pointer, but "revered" is not at all needed. Even trust is not required as it's not about believing but rather confirming for yourself. Best to ignore the qualifications of the messenger as you can't know what they are, and get in the habit of always 'looking' regardless of what is said or who is saying it. Always be looking at what in blazes is really going on, whether it's ego work or Freedom work. The significance of pointers is that they refer to a realization that is not found in the concepts, and so you're not being asked to understand ideas and figure it out with logic. That's all. It's not arrogance to talk about something that you see that cannot be seen understood with the mind. |
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Post by tzujanli on Nov 10, 2013 12:07:45 GMT -5
Greetings.. When we speak of 'pointing', we mean the pointing at the Truth with a capital T (pointing at the moon). The believer needs to revere the speaker because if not, the speaker is just a person the same as they are. If the speaker is just another person, their words aren't believed as Truth, but possibly agreed or disagreed with. I can talk about things that are true, but I can't 'point at the moon'. Trust is useful in encouraging one to look in the direction of the pointer, but "revered" is not at all needed. Even trust is not required as it's not about believing but rather confirming for yourself. Best to ignore the qualifications of the messenger as you can't know what they are, and get in the habit of always 'looking' regardless of what is said or who is saying it. Always be looking at what in blazes is really going on, whether it's ego work or Freedom work. The significance of pointers is that they refer to a realization that is not found in the concepts, and so you're not being asked to understand ideas and figure it out with logic. That's all. It's not arrogance to talk about something that you see that cannot be seen understood with the mind.What is it, when an imagined concept is labeled 'realization' by the mind in order to avoid discussing the mind's relationship with that concept? Be well.. |
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