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Post by laughter on Nov 7, 2013 11:18:35 GMT -5
"By you" implies origination in the separate mind/body, and my point was that it doesn't originate there. OK... implies a separate mind body. I didn't think of that. I wonder if it's actually true that mind/body is the way that people generally consider the self. I doubt that. I think most people have a sense of eternal self. I guess others want to call that being/knowing, which is not common terminology. I'd actually not considered where 'it originates'. It's just what I call 'me expressing myself'... this implies self expression. Not my experience (both w/r/t "most people", and personally). At all. Are you familiar with a new bit of slang: YOLO? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2013 12:18:38 GMT -5
It is and it isn't... The arising of the sense of a self or being a separate individual is illusory. And the problem for the individual is that they think that the illusion is real. The illusion is that they think they are a real person, but illusions can't choose to breath faster or slower. The sense of being a person is both real and unreal. It has no substantiation. So it can be called illusory in that way. What is actually happening is Aliveness(Beingness) breathing faster or slower. The self image comes and goes much like other thoughts. The self proper doesn't have properties. It's not so much that there is no self and it's more like the self can't be defined. That is for two reasons I think. The self image is temporal; meaning impermanent and/or changing... and the self proper is outright unfathomable. None of this means that I can't take a deep breath and then a shallow one, if that's what I determine to do. Yes, self images arise just like thoughts arise, just like deep breathing or shallow breathing arises. But the sense there is a me, or I, or Self that is aware of images, thoughts and breathing is an illusion... When the illusion suddenly collapses, there is just images, just thoughts, and just breathing arising, there is just Aliveness... When the illusion of TRF dies, what is left is just Being, just Aliveness, just what IS... |
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Post by lolly on Nov 7, 2013 23:36:21 GMT -5
I can write a list of things down, and then do those things. I guess I can discern what lies within my capability, so I don't write anything unfeasible. I don't write down things that'll occur anyway. I write the things that I think will require my effort, and that I feel capable of doing. I usually allow some flexibility in case something doesn't go to plan. This way I generally have about 90% success rate. I don't know if that's cause and effect or genuine inspiration, but it works. What I'm wondering is if that list that you generate is just coming through you. Those to-do items are fragments left from light shining through various filters created through a history of conditioning and current circumstance. With it comes feelings of willfulness, choice, planning. Those feelings are also just expressions which happen absent any control whatsoever. There's not really much control, but through listing things that I am both willing to do and able to achieve I see my predetermined vision occur. Of course this describes a plan of action. That entails envisioning the outcomes first, and then determining a course of action. I think the mistake we make philosophically is attempting to ascertain if I control the outcome or if I am subject to circumstances. Personally, I think of all this as an interactive process which deals with the things I can control and the things I can't... and navigating the world through doing the former while accepting the latter... because you know what they say about 'the best laid plans...'. On a philosophical level, I frame the universe as being something I observe as it observes me, so I believe in 'a conscious universe' or the universe as energy, qi, life force. In day to day life I'm not 'the observer'; I'm actively engaged as a force in the environment, and clarity of vision, alertness of attention and intensity of concentration are the driving factors of the confidence and activity that enables me to adapt my surrounds. By the same token, I also adapt to the changing surrounds as being partial to it. I think it's difficult to reconcile whether I 'LOA' my environment or I am formed by it, because it's true I'm basically the sum of all my past, yet on the other hand, a person can have anything they want in life... and at the same time, one can only ever expect the unexpected. I'm dealing with a paradox. This means, If I have a bunch of stuff to do or want a particular outcome, I make a list and proceed with tasks in a sensible order, so I don't forget anything and I get it done in time. That's how it manifests in my life. |
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Post by lolly on Nov 8, 2013 0:45:39 GMT -5
The self image comes and goes much like other thoughts. The self proper doesn't have properties. It's not so much that there is no self and it's more like the self can't be defined. That is for two reasons I think. The self image is temporal; meaning impermanent and/or changing... and the self proper is outright unfathomable. None of this means that I can't take a deep breath and then a shallow one, if that's what I determine to do. Yes, self images arise just like thoughts arise, just like deep breathing or shallow breathing arises. But the sense there is a me, or I, or Self that is aware of images, thoughts and breathing is an illusion... When the illusion suddenly collapses, there is just images, just thoughts, and just breathing arising, there is just Aliveness... When the illusion of TRF dies, what is left is just Being, just Aliveness, just what IS... I guess when self image is defined as what you think you are, it follows that it arises just as other thoughts do. I don't thing that addresses much though; moreso it raises questions like, 'What is thought?'. I can determine that the coming breath will be deep, then breath accordingly. I can't determine the rate of my heart or the filtering of my kidneys though. I'm sure you see that there's a difference there. This seems to push the bounds of your explanation. The thing is, it's obvious that there isn't a simple process of thought arises and away it goes. There's other things like the depth of concentration, the sensitivity or keenness of perception, focus of attention... and other more subtle aspects of people. |
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Post by tzujanli on Nov 8, 2013 6:49:18 GMT -5
Greetings.. What I'm wondering is if that list that you generate is just coming through you. Those to-do items are fragments left from light shining through various filters created through a history of conditioning and current circumstance. With it comes feelings of willfulness, choice, planning. Those feelings are also just expressions which happen absent any control whatsoever. There's not really much control, but through listing things that I am both willing to do and able to achieve I see my predetermined vision occur. Of course this describes a plan of action. That entails envisioning the outcomes first, and then determining a course of action. I think the mistake we make philosophically is attempting to ascertain if I control the outcome or if I am subject to circumstances. Personally, I think of all this as an interactive process which deals with the things I can control and the things I can't... and navigating the world through doing the former while accepting the latter... because you know what they say about 'the best laid plans...'. On a philosophical level, I frame the universe as being something I observe as it observes me, so I believe in 'a conscious universe' or the universe as energy, qi, life force. In day to day life I'm not 'the observer'; I'm actively engaged as a force in the environment, and clarity of vision, alertness of attention and intensity of concentration are the driving factors of the confidence and activity that enables me to adapt my surrounds. By the same token, I also adapt to the changing surrounds as being partial to it. I think it's difficult to reconcile whether I 'LOA' my environment or I am formed by it, ; because it's true I'm basically the sum of all my past, yet on the other hand, a person can have anything they want in life... and at the same time, one can only ever expect the unexpected. I'm dealing with a paradox. This means, If I have a bunch of stuff to do or want a particular outcome, I make a list and proceed with tasks in a sensible order, so I don't forget anything and I get it done in time. That's how it manifests in my life. Hi Lolly: What happens if you let go of the concepts that create the conflict between 'LOA' or being a product of your environment? in other words, here you are, now, and whether you choose to believe 'LOA' got you here or your environment created you, you're still here, now.. There are many factors that are beyond my ability to control, and there are many 'rites of passage' on our journey through existence, birth and death being notably unavoidable.. what i cannot control i can understand, what i can't understand i can explore.. in all cases, i can choose how i understand my existence, i can see obstacles or opportunities.. i can see 'illusions/imagined mindscapes', or i can simply 'see'.. Is the "unexpected" an obstacle or an opportunity? it is my understanding that the difference between obstacle and opportunity is a choice made prior to the experience, the choice 'see' what is actually happening.. Be well.. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2013 9:15:27 GMT -5
What I'm wondering is if that list that you generate is just coming through you. Those to-do items are fragments left from light shining through various filters created through a history of conditioning and current circumstance. With it comes feelings of willfulness, choice, planning. Those feelings are also just expressions which happen absent any control whatsoever. There's not really much control, but through listing things that I am both willing to do and able to achieve I see my predetermined vision occur. Of course this describes a plan of action. That entails envisioning the outcomes first, and then determining a course of action. I think the mistake we make philosophically is attempting to ascertain if I control the outcome or if I am subject to circumstances. Personally, I think of all this as an interactive process which deals with the things I can control and the things I can't... and navigating the world through doing the former while accepting the latter... because you know what they say about 'the best laid plans...'. On a philosophical level, I frame the universe as being something I observe as it observes me, so I believe in 'a conscious universe' or the universe as energy, qi, life force. In day to day life I'm not 'the observer'; I'm actively engaged as a force in the environment, and clarity of vision, alertness of attention and intensity of concentration are the driving factors of the confidence and activity that enables me to adapt my surrounds. By the same token, I also adapt to the changing surrounds as being partial to it. I think it's difficult to reconcile whether I 'LOA' my environment or I am formed by it, because it's true I'm basically the sum of all my past, yet on the other hand, a person can have anything they want in life... and at the same time, one can only ever expect the unexpected. I'm dealing with a paradox. This means, If I have a bunch of stuff to do or want a particular outcome, I make a list and proceed with tasks in a sensible order, so I don't forget anything and I get it done in time. That's how it manifests in my life. That's how it manifests in my life too. Though I wouldn't ever claim to be particularly goal oriented. My wife would love it if I'd become more enthralled with checklists. I don't really believe a person can have anything they want in life. That seems very rosy to me. Are you a Law of Attraction believer? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2013 10:01:45 GMT -5
Yes, self images arise just like thoughts arise, just like deep breathing or shallow breathing arises. But the sense there is a me, or I, or Self that is aware of images, thoughts and breathing is an illusion... When the illusion suddenly collapses, there is just images, just thoughts, and just breathing arising, there is just Aliveness... When the illusion of TRF dies, what is left is just Being, just Aliveness, just what IS... I guess when self image is defined as what you think you are, it follows that it arises just as other thoughts do. I don't thing that addresses much though; moreso it raises questions like, 'What is thought?'. I can determine that the coming breath will be deep, then breath accordingly. I can't determine the rate of my heart or the filtering of my kidneys though. I'm sure you see that there's a difference there. This seems to push the bounds of your explanation. The thing is, it's obvious that there isn't a simple process of thought arises and away it goes. There's other things like the depth of concentration, the sensitivity or keenness of perception, focus of attention... and other more subtle aspects of people. Yes, that's all part of the story around the very lovely dream of lolly... But it's illusory, because all there IS is what IS, just Wholeness appearing as the dream of lolly. But don't worry, having clarity about it won't dispel it, because there isn't anyone there to do anything about it...hehe |
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Post by laughter on Nov 8, 2013 13:47:30 GMT -5
I think it's difficult to reconcile whether I 'LOA' my environment or I am formed by it, because it's true I'm basically the sum of all my past, yet on the other hand, a person can have anything they want in life... and at the same time, one can only ever expect the unexpected. I'm dealing with a paradox. From my experience, this paradox presents itself to the thinking mind in a myriad of forms, and the one that I've encountered that expresses it perhaps the most succinctly and yet comprehensively is "form is emptiness, emptiness is form". There are a few other conceptual structures that track this, and if they're examined in the context of recognizing the futility of thinking about the paradox, I've found them to be a way for the thinking mind to sort of reconcile itself to that state of affairs. |
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Post by enigma on Nov 8, 2013 21:49:23 GMT -5
Actually, there's a bodily urge to breath that becomes stronger the more you don't. (try it and see) There are many things you do without a conscious choice, but it doesn't mean you're not choosing, it just means it doesn't require your conscious thought about it. However, the fact that you make a choice doesn't imply volition is happening, only that choosing is happening. You don't have a choice about what you choose. No-one has to try to breath, it just occurs, Lots of things are done without a conscious choice. and yet there is mind involvement on a slightly more subtle level. Most folks don't breathe properly, which is to say they breathe in a shallow way, from the upper chest muscles. It's just the natural tendency toward laziness, but laziness involves choice. Breathing is also abated in times of sudden fear or shock. If breathing 'just happened', one would expect it to 'just happen' correctly and predictably. You need air just as you need food. You wouldn't say eating 'just happens'. No. Mr Webster says "the power to make your own choices or decisions." The occurrence of a choice happening does not prove that it is made of your own power. |
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Post by enigma on Nov 8, 2013 22:07:12 GMT -5
"By you" implies origination in the separate mind/body, and my point was that it doesn't originate there. OK... implies a separate mind body. I didn't think of that. I wonder if it's actually true that mind/body is the way that people generally consider the self. I doubt that. I think most people have a sense of eternal self. I guess others want to call that being/knowing, which is not common terminology. I'd actually not considered where 'it originates'. It's just what I call 'me expressing myself'... this implies self expression. I think peeps have a sense of existing, and they don't typically consider what it is that's existing. The natural tendency is to associate this sense with anything unique to this particular individual. Experiences, feelings, thoughts, ideas, physical attributes, etc. That's what is meant by mind/body identification. That's also why folks tend to become attached to beliefs and physical appearance. It forms a little more subtly than thinking 'I am this mind, this body', though when pressed to define the identity, that's likely what it will come down to. |
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Post by enigma on Nov 8, 2013 22:14:33 GMT -5
OK... implies a separate mind body. I didn't think of that. I wonder if it's actually true that mind/body is the way that people generally consider the self. I doubt that. I think most people have a sense of eternal self. I guess others want to call that being/knowing, which is not common terminology. I'd actually not considered where 'it originates'. It's just what I call 'me expressing myself'... this implies self expression. Not my experience (both w/r/t "most people", and personally). At all. Yeah, I would think a sense of eternal self would be an identification with an idea that contradicts personal experience at every turn. Googling Urban Dictionary as the uncontested authority on such matters..... "Abbreviation for: you only live once The dumbass's excuse for something stupid that they did Also one of the most annoying abbreviations ever...."  |
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Post by enigma on Nov 8, 2013 22:24:44 GMT -5
What I'm wondering is if that list that you generate is just coming through you. Those to-do items are fragments left from light shining through various filters created through a history of conditioning and current circumstance. With it comes feelings of willfulness, choice, planning. Those feelings are also just expressions which happen absent any control whatsoever. There's not really much control, but through listing things that I am both willing to do and able to achieve I see my predetermined vision occur. Of course this describes a plan of action. That entails envisioning the outcomes first, and then determining a course of action. I think the mistake we make philosophically is attempting to ascertain if I control the outcome or if I am subject to circumstances. Personally, I think of all this as an interactive process which deals with the things I can control and the things I can't... and navigating the world through doing the former while accepting the latter... because you know what they say about 'the best laid plans...'. On a philosophical level, I frame the universe as being something I observe as it observes me, so I believe in 'a conscious universe' or the universe as energy, qi, life force. In day to day life I'm not 'the observer'; I'm actively engaged as a force in the environment, and clarity of vision, alertness of attention and intensity of concentration are the driving factors of the confidence and activity that enables me to adapt my surrounds. By the same token, I also adapt to the changing surrounds as being partial to it. I think it's difficult to reconcile whether I 'LOA' my environment or I am formed by it, because it's true I'm basically the sum of all my past, yet on the other hand, a person can have anything they want in life... and at the same time, one can only ever expect the unexpected. I'm dealing with a paradox. This means, If I have a bunch of stuff to do or want a particular outcome, I make a list and proceed with tasks in a sensible order, so I don't forget anything and I get it done in time. That's how it manifests in my life. I neither see that a person can have whatever they want in life, nor that one can only ever expect the unexpected. The reason the expected is expected is because that's what usually happens. |
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Post by tzujanli on Nov 8, 2013 23:32:39 GMT -5
Greetings.. No-one has to try to breath, it just occurs, Lots of things are done without a conscious choice. and yet there is mind involvement on a slightly more subtle level. Most folks don't breathe properly, which is to say they breathe in a shallow way, from the upper chest muscles. It's just the natural tendency toward laziness, but laziness involves choice. Breathing is also abated in times of sudden fear or shock. If breathing 'just happened', one would expect it to 'just happen' correctly and predictably. You need air just as you need food. You wouldn't say eating 'just happens'. No. Mr Webster says "the power to make your own choices or decisions." The occurrence of a choice happening does not prove that it is made of your own power. There are occurrences where choices are made by the experiencer's own volition.. and there are occurrences where there are no choices available.. both conditions actually happen. To claim either as the 'only' actuality, requires belief/faith that the other actuality doesn't exist though it is self-evident.. Anyone can choose to stop breathing, but the methods for actualizing that choice are radical.. to actually believe that there is no volition requires the volition to deny what is self-evident.. to insist that 'no volition' is the case, requires the volition to pursue a result not supported by any evidence that doesn't require belief in ideas or imaginings.. and, the discussion itself is a choice to shift awareness from what is actually happening, to thoughts about the happening.. Be well.. |
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Post by laughter on Nov 9, 2013 0:51:07 GMT -5
Not my experience (both w/r/t "most people", and personally). At all. Googling Urban Dictionary as the uncontested authority on such matters..... "Abbreviation for: you only live once The dumbass's excuse for something stupid that they did Also one of the most annoying abbreviations ever...." ... and one identified with their body only, in terms of the limit of their skin, will not have a sense of eternity. |
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Post by lolly on Nov 9, 2013 3:36:17 GMT -5
Greetings.. There's not really much control, but through listing things that I am both willing to do and able to achieve I see my predetermined vision occur. Of course this describes a plan of action. That entails envisioning the outcomes first, and then determining a course of action. I think the mistake we make philosophically is attempting to ascertain if I control the outcome or if I am subject to circumstances. Personally, I think of all this as an interactive process which deals with the things I can control and the things I can't... and navigating the world through doing the former while accepting the latter... because you know what they say about 'the best laid plans...'. On a philosophical level, I frame the universe as being something I observe as it observes me, so I believe in 'a conscious universe' or the universe as energy, qi, life force. In day to day life I'm not 'the observer'; I'm actively engaged as a force in the environment, and clarity of vision, alertness of attention and intensity of concentration are the driving factors of the confidence and activity that enables me to adapt my surrounds. By the same token, I also adapt to the changing surrounds as being partial to it. I think it's difficult to reconcile whether I 'LOA' my environment or I am formed by it, ; because it's true I'm basically the sum of all my past, yet on the other hand, a person can have anything they want in life... and at the same time, one can only ever expect the unexpected. I'm dealing with a paradox. This means, If I have a bunch of stuff to do or want a particular outcome, I make a list and proceed with tasks in a sensible order, so I don't forget anything and I get it done in time. That's how it manifests in my life. Hi Lolly: What happens if you let go of the concepts that create the conflict between 'LOA' or being a product of your environment? in other words, here you are, now, and whether you choose to believe 'LOA' got you here or your environment created you, you're still here, now.. There are many factors that are beyond my ability to control, and there are many 'rites of passage' on our journey through existence, birth and death being notably unavoidable.. what i cannot control i can understand, what i can't understand i can explore.. in all cases, i can choose how i understand my existence, i can see obstacles or opportunities.. i can see 'illusions/imagined mindscapes', or i can simply 'see'.. Is the "unexpected" an obstacle or an opportunity? it is my understanding that the difference between obstacle and opportunity is a choice made prior to the experience, the choice 'see' what is actually happening.. Be well.. Personally, I don't experience conflict between LOAing everything or being formed by the environment. I'm just familiar with the LOA concept and the concept of conditioning. Moreso, it's the opinion of other people that we create our lives or we are completely subjects of circumstance due our non-existence. I understand that the advocates of such positions do not know if those positions are true or not, but they seem resolute in their stances none-the-less. In my own experience, I can draw conclusions base in insights, but these are always invalidated in other circumstances. The basis of the observation is the noticing of what is, as that pertains to me personally. The experience is shared in the spirit of compassion, but not told and taught and pointed etc. I mean a pointer is basically saying 'Look how fucken enlightened I am'... as though I actually give a damn. Every day, There are obstacles and opportunities, and all people have strengths and weaknesses... and I don't understand my existence at all... I never know what to expect... and sometime life is about full efforts and othertimes it's like take it as it comes. The main thing is, don't make little boxes out of drawn conclusions. I think life is about responding appropriately. |
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