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Post by giannis on Jul 23, 2009 6:09:58 GMT -5
I posted something at the headless forum, and I post it here as well cause I need opinions. If that breaks some rule, mister administrator should feel free to delete it.
I was imagining that if I asked some questions at a harding seminar, I would get an answer like that:
Seeing, or better: "noticing", should be easy.
There are 3 pitfalls though that don't let us admit what we see.
The problem is that we don't go ALL THE WAY back to point zero. The attention has to be retreated back, where it starts.
The 3 usual pitfalls:
1) We tend to keep our attention out there, on the finger.
2) We tend to look back with our imagination, imagining the face, that there should be something, thoughts, feelings, bodily tensions who we imagine as a "soul" or something, maybe an image of a face or even the thinking brain. We have to look past these too. More backwards!
3) Sometimes, we tend to think that we are looking back, but we are imagining we are looking back. We are imagining a "void", a perceivable one that we are simply... imagining. The point is that we are still looking into our imagination, not into the "source".
The fact is that "here", it is space between particles, waves of nothing. Not a sword can hurt that one, even if the world collapsed, what could happen to this "here"? It's a sad story for the "little poor me" who lives in the ever changing realm, indeed.
And guess what, we can't look at it, we can just "be it".
But I still don't get it:
In all sincirity, when I retreat my attention backwards, I see a small tension in the face with a thinking voice (I call that one "me") , and this is looking at a vast void. (I call that ... void).
How can I know that if the "me" dies, the void will be able to be seen? Since I'm seeing it, how will the void be self conscious without me?
It is obviously going to stay there, nothing can harm the void, i agree, but what is seeing the void? What is producing this "arrow of attention??
Ok, I admit that as a baby, I had not this voice, this mental noise, since I wasn't able to talk and think like that. All the mental chatter is learnt, added, mechanic... but what was I? The void seems dead in comparison with me.
thanks
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Post by Peter on Jul 23, 2009 7:00:21 GMT -5
Hi Giannis I posted something at the headless forum, and I post it here as well cause I need opinions. If that breaks some rule, mister administrator should feel free to delete it. No rule against double posting, Giannis. I've not tried The Headless Way though, so I'd be interested to hear what response you get from The Experts. Could you post a link to your thread on the other site? Yup, those hazards make sense. What face? Is this a face you're imagining? Is that something you're supposed to be doing, or is that falling into pitfall 2 above? Hopefully you'll get a response here from someone who's really GOT how this works... Aren't Hardings methods supposed to be experimental and experiential? The obvious answer would be: Why don't you try it and see! Are you worried about losing yourself to the void? In my experience, an urgent need to pee brought me back to myself. Pure awareness. You sound like you're reluctant to let go of that 'me'. If so, I have the same feeling. |
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Post by vacant on Jul 23, 2009 8:23:36 GMT -5
I too am reluctant to let go of that "me". And yes, Headlessness is weird, but that's not necessarily wrong. I have a soft spot for Douglas Harding, his speeches are inspiring. The experiments he proposes are practical and seem to me valid —if quirky— meditation techniques, and I find they can be efficient at quieting the thoughts current. But I have not clicked on to the fact that what I see in that exercise he calls "what I truly am" . I'm missing something there.
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Post by giannis on Jul 23, 2009 8:59:50 GMT -5
Maybe I am reluctant to let go of the me peter, but it's there, an arrow of attention.
I can see the void, I can see that it's indestructible and that it contains all.
But, this arrow of attention that I am when I look at it?
How can that be the void, it seems different...
I feel what u say vacant.
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Post by lightmystic on Jul 23, 2009 14:44:43 GMT -5
This is a great post giannis. You bring up some real good stuff here.... The void looks like void only because it's so overwhelming to see that it's actually That which is everything. Now, realistically, it's not fair to expect to be able to see it for what it truly is when there's constantly this fear of annihilation in the background. No one can be expected to do that, and looking into that is a natural part of the process. That said, recognizing that it's perhaps not really void can help recognize that there might be more safety into looking into it than it first appears. Obviously you are not your conception of self, because your conception of self is something you are Aware of. Who's noticing the conception of self? Who is noticing void? Do you see what I mean? The perceiver cannot be contained, because the perceiver is that which does the containing....And Awareness has no edges.... only the mind creates edges - thoughts, concepts, etc... - and those thoughts, concepts, etc. are all something you are Aware of. They are all something contained within Awareness. Awareness contains the mind... You might try starting culture a relationship with a void. Say hello. Get to know this infinite being.... You might start to suspect that void is an aspect of your own Awareness, and so is all relativity....You are that which sees, and that is not limited. You can watch the voice in your head. It goes on with or without you intefering with it. It's just another thing that is perceived. You can watch the feeling of acting, of having free will, of being in control....you can see those feelings trying to change thoughts. If even the feeling of control goes on when you just perceive it....then you must be what's left...that which contains it.... Can you see that in your own experience? If so, can you explain your experience of it? If not, can you say what seems to be in the way from seeing what is being pointed to...? Maybe I am reluctant to let go of the me peter, but it's there, an arrow of attention. I can see the void, I can see that it's indestructible and that it contains all. But, this arrow of attention that I am when I look at it? How can that be the void, it seems different... I feel what u say vacant. |
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Post by giannis on Jul 24, 2009 8:09:07 GMT -5
Dear lightmystic, I kept your answer in mind for the whole day.
The void does not look so sad and scary indeed, I just project these things upon it.
(of course, in some meditations I can't help being scared)
And I'm definately not my thoughts. I can admit that without feeling a faker.
Although I have some objections admiting that I am some kind of will power.
But anyway, let's just say that these things can be seen, so my self can not be them.
My big objection is that I feel being awareness or attention, but these TOO come and go. My attention might drift away and then come back to look.
Am I not attention too?
My mind simply can not grasp that one. Maybe it's better to just hope to understand this rather than trying to understand it.
ps: peter, in the other forum, they more or less replied that I can't be my thoughts since I 'm watching them.
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Post by lightmystic on Jul 24, 2009 9:24:54 GMT -5
Hey Giannis, Again, REALLY good stuff here.  I like what you said about the void. Fear can be natural at first, so there's nothing wrong with that. It's a natural initial response until the relationship is perfectly clear. Just realize that the fear just comes from not quite knowing the relationship clearly enough yet for it to be safe....that comes with time, and allowing the fear to be there without putting stock in it is one of the most effective ways to speed up the process seeing that relationship. Just feeling into the void, very gently, openly, and honestly - even if there's fear.... Perhaps this is not a good analogy (you'll have to let me know...hehe) but willpower is almost like a bodily function - like hunger or going to the bathroom. It's an automatic thing that must be attended to when it comes up. It's part of you, just like those functions are physically part of you. But they don't make up the whole of who you are. Not by a longshot. I mean, can you imagine someone believing they WERE their bodily functions but not their mind? What a scary way to exist. That's kind of the analogy akin to life. Or perhaps it can be related to your heart beating. It goes on automatically - but you don't feel like you're NOT beating it. It's just something that's going to go on either way, so you can relax. The functions continue, but they do not limit what we are. They are only a part of what we are. And we can try to stop the natural tendencies (as we have been for many lifetimes), but they go on in the most natural way when allowed. I hope that makes sense, even though it's a little trick to talk about.... You certainly are your attention, but not ONLY your attention. That which is Aware perceive everything that comes into Awareness. It perceives where the attention is, it perceives the idea to change attention and the actual change...so what is Aware is aware OF attention. It contains that too... Awareness as perception never comes and goes. When there is deep sleep, the Awareness is there, it's just not Aware OF external objects. The same can be said for deep meditations where there is no experience OF anything... The idea that Awareness went is something actually perceived by that never changing Awareness. The experience of Awareness coming and going is perceived by that never changing Awareness. Do you see what I'm saying? Dear lightmystic, I kept your answer in mind for the whole day. The void does not look so sad and scary indeed, I just project these things upon it. (of course, in some meditations I can't help being scared) And I'm definately not my thoughts. I can admit that without feeling a faker. Although I have some objections admiting that I am some kind of will power. But anyway, let's just say that these things can be seen, so my self can not be them. My big objection is that I feel being awareness or attention, but these TOO come and go. My attention might drift away and then come back to look. Am I not attention too?My mind simply can not grasp that one. Maybe it's better to just hope to understand this rather than trying to understand it. ps: peter, in the other forum, they more or less replied that I can't be my thoughts since I 'm watching them. |
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Post by souley on Jul 27, 2009 14:35:13 GMT -5
For me everything is just life (or Life as mystics tend to put it). Life is. There is nothing that is not life, and there can be no separation between different things that life are, because it is the same life.
When "you" look out of your void, it is life looking. And everything you (life) sees is also life. The idea of "you" is something that your mind took on as it grew up and was conditioned to believe it is separate. But it's really only life being conditioned and believing things.
I have now been pretty void a few times, and I can't say these intellectual questions get much attention in that place. It all seems pretty natural. It is a bit like, since there is no me (that is the experience), but all perceptions go on as usual (seeing, hearing, etc), then what am I? I am nothing, or everything.
I don't know what my point is, maybe that the intellectual approach has been pretty limited for me, as in using it to understand what I am. It seems that everything intellectually understood is empty compared to the feeling of understanding.
I can compare it to being hungry for peanuts, really feeling how good they will taste, there is no doubt about anything, there is no question "are they really good", "am I really hungry", etc, it really just is. That is opposed to shopping for them when you're not hungry, because you intellectually know them to be good, and that you might want them later. Here there is no satisfaction to be found:)
Still I could never advise anyone against questioning everything! Just don't expect to intellectually understand it, because it does not seem to work like that, at least for me! Probably the best you can do, and which is for me very helpful, is to understand that you do not understand. Questioning tends to lead that way..
BTW I love Harding, for me it helped to relate seeing my body to the seeing of the void, to get the feeling of it in the beginning. And damnit void is not a good word. Maybe the best, but not very good. Experience, experience, experience!!
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Post by giannis on Jul 27, 2009 19:02:24 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply souley. It's not that I'm looking for understanding, it's more like I'm trying to navigate through the walls that my mind presents as valid arguments and feelings. If I would ignore them, I would feel fake. Or, now that I think about it, maybe I'm just trying to understand things and you're right... Lightmystic, I indeed can dissociate from my willpower and attention, as you said. That example was helpful!! If I just experience my willpower and not "live" it, it seems kind of dead, but it still goes on. The first day when that happened, I got very emotional, and felt that the very fact of existance of awareness is an incredible miracle. After all, we could all just be mindless bio-computers without a crumb of awareness... But later, the excitement wore out. I began to think that I might be projecting things (like a "no-me" void) out there and actually not doing anything at all. So, after all, searching is an act of faith/hope that enlightenment exists, contrary to the doubting mind. I don't know what is supposed to happen next, or what I'm supposed to understand... but I feel (or hope) there is more. So, I'll just keep on doing my mediocre meditation attempts and try to cultivate a relationship with that "nothing" as was suggested above. And that's because, as I read somewhere, there's nothing else to be done that feels worthy. thanksps: any suggestion or hint is WELCOMED |
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Post by lightmystic on Jul 28, 2009 9:52:23 GMT -5
Hey giannis, Seeing that separation is an important and useful thing, but it certainly isn't the end. The process is seeing that you are not limited to anything - that you are are instead something infinite. It's like identifying with a cell in your body, believing you are only the cell. Then you realize that it functions on it's own. You are merely watching it - then there's the recognition that the cell is that same "giannis"-ness that you are - it's just that you're not limited to the cell in any way. That's kind of a good analogy for you and Creation. So after recognizing you are NOT anything limited - you are not the individual, then the process is one of recognizing the relationship of you - the Infinite - to everything else. When it's starting to be seen to be that same wholeness, then the connectedness starts to return. And then there's more. A LOT more. If you're feeling small, restricted, or confined in any way - know it can't be the end because you would not be feeling restricted if you were really allowed to be what you are completely... So going into the Nothingness is the beginning of seeing that it's who and what you are. Feeling connected to the Nothing will definitely make things start to feel better. It's literally like a taking credit for it. And then that little shift - so natural - is Awakening. And that is the real beginning, because then you can really start to see the connection between that Infinite/Nothingness (i.e. yourself) and everything else.... Do you have any remaining of objections to why you can't already be the infinite right now? (on an emotional, literal level obviously - not intellectually) if so, would you care to voice them? Thanks for the reply souley. It's not that I'm looking for understanding, it's more like I'm trying to navigate through the walls that my mind presents as valid arguments and feelings. If I would ignore them, I would feel fake. Or, now that I think about it, maybe I'm just trying to understand things and you're right... Lightmystic, I indeed can dissociate from my willpower and attention, as you said. That example was helpful!! If I just experience my willpower and not "live" it, it seems kind of dead, but it still goes on. The first day when that happened, I got very emotional, and felt that the very fact of existance of awareness is an incredible miracle. After all, we could all just be mindless bio-computers without a crumb of awareness... But later, the excitement wore out. I began to think that I might be projecting things (like a "no-me" void) out there and actually not doing anything at all. So, after all, searching is an act of faith/hope that enlightenment exists, contrary to the doubting mind. I don't know what is supposed to happen next, or what I'm supposed to understand... but I feel (or hope) there is more. So, I'll just keep on doing my mediocre meditation attempts and try to cultivate a relationship with that "nothing" as was suggested above. And that's because, as I read somewhere, there's nothing else to be done that feels worthy. thanksps: any suggestion or hint is WELCOMED |
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Post by giannis on Jul 31, 2009 6:47:18 GMT -5
Yes, here is my "blockage":
I perceive something deeper, maybe infinite, but don't know what to do, or how to give up in order to come closer to it, or be it. That feels slightly depressing but there is a slight joy also at the same time (who knows, maybe it's just my idea).
Whatever I do in my meditation, I either lose it or fall in a kind of forgetfulness/sleep.
I also get some headaches afterwards, but of course maybe that's not related.
So, the last resource is just talking to it, contacting it. I admit I don't know how and just end up asking it for inspiration or better to do what "it" wants (since my strategy is non existant any more).
Maybe that's what you're talking about cultivating a relationship with "it".
Many times, I also doubt that there is anything at all there.
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Post by giannis on Aug 3, 2009 17:51:46 GMT -5
My emotional state has become a roller coaster, between happiness and sadness... This is a slooowww mushroom trip, but there probably is no happy come back.
I just post to mention what I'm thinking, and I'm afraid it's true.
Lmystic, you ask what prevents me from being infinite.
Nisargadata says: I'm "that".
Oriental masters mention that we are the "void".
Christians say "we are the inheritors of the kingdom".
It's not that we are infinite, it's that infinity is everything, and we are not.
All this time I've been trying to prove to myself that I'm infinite, but infinity is, I'm not.
I'm fake.
That's what I see. Sad sad journey..
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anonji
Junior Member
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Post by anonji on Aug 3, 2009 19:25:10 GMT -5
"Headlessness" implies the opposite; that a lot is going on in the head, which means our thought processes are overly involved in our spiritual journey. If you think about or label experience then you have corrupted its essence with words. If you can look at a rose or a tree without labeling; just seeing it as it is, then you can just as well see the infinite, or bliss or ecstasy without adding a lot of intellectual baggage to it. The label does not add clarity; that is just an illusion. Without the label our vision will sharpen as we trust our innate instincts. Take your head out the game, you will feel a lot lighter as you make your way without unnecessary encumbrances.
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Post by giannis on Aug 3, 2009 21:17:27 GMT -5
"Headlessness" implies the opposite; that a lot is going on in the head, which means our thought processes are overly involved in our spiritual journey. So, am I still lost in "concepts land"? So, this "clear space" that Harding talks about is still a concept? I see it, I feel that this is below everything and it wears the world as a mask above it, but this might too be a concept. Ok. If that's the case, and if headlessness has more to offer, here are some more thoughts by an anxious mind.. Harding talks about watching outwards (experience) and inwards (void space) at the same time. Does this mean that the marriage of the two, will produce an enlightened view? Should we use the void headless space as a pointer and not as a final answer, is this space still the finger and not the moon? Should I expect and hope for more? Something like the 3d book pictures that just pop out of the page accidently if you stare them long enough? |
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Post by souley on Aug 4, 2009 13:53:28 GMT -5
So, am I still lost in "concepts land"? So, this "clear space" that Harding talks about is still a concept? I see it, I feel that this is below everything and it wears the world as a mask above it, but this might too be a concept. Ok. Anything you feel is not a concept, everything you think is. Or maybe that is totally wrong, but that is my take on it:) If that's the case, and if headlessness has more to offer, here are some more thoughts by an anxious mind.. Harding talks about watching outwards (experience) and inwards (void space) at the same time. Does this mean that the marriage of the two, will produce an enlightened view? Should we use the void headless space as a pointer and not as a final answer, is this space still the finger and not the moon? Should I expect and hope for more? Something like the 3d book pictures that just pop out of the page accidently if you stare them long enough? The headless experience, when practiced, is as Harding says an arrow, that will eventually kill the idea of you, and you will see that you are what is left. It is the same view all the time, but all the conditioning and ideas that you carry around makes it very hard to see/feel. The experience of the view will get very very very much clearer. That is pretty much true, and it is a painful journey. But that it is sad sound pretty much like a concept. Why is it sad? It's only sad since it opposes the old ideas of you. It is really just beautiful. And that you are not is also kind of a concept. Isn't there an experience and perceiving going on all the time? You or not you, it is still the same thing. You could say that it is infinity and no you, or you could say that you are infinity. Both ways is really just to complex, I would say it is too simple to express in words. Once again, feeling rules, and is the real understanding. When you solve some kind of math problem, you don't think very much about it, either the solution comes as you read the problem, or it doesn't. You can try some angles, but it really isn't up to you. Just let it come. Girlfriend says dinner is ready.. and she is already annoyed. Don't be too hard on yourself giannis!! |
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