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Post by nowhereman on Sept 6, 2013 21:19:25 GMT -5
So you refuse to play along with the story. That's okay. Then please pick another instance where someone is "pretending" (in the sense we're discussing here) and the stops the "pretense". If there is indeed no solution then how does the deception ever stop? But of course there is a solution. Some self-deceptions cease to function, so they are solved. How did it happen? To be self-deceived is an obvious violation of logic, this means that the person in question is clearly behaving irrationally, and then you advice the person to use logic, see through a problem and make the logical choice to stop the self-deception. To claim that someone is self-deceived is to claim that the person in question is crazy, why do you expect this person to be able to make rational choices?That's the first point. The other point is that obviously we would have a long time ago stopped the self-deception because then we would have a much better life. Why don't we? This choice that's being referred to doesn't seem rational to the rational thinker. We are all deceived until the day we are not. This day happens when the small (s) in self sees(realization) the big(S) in Self. At which point the Divine hypnosis which RB refers to is undone. It's a profound understanding not of the mind but from a much more subtle body if you will. Nowhereman
For such a one rises above all others
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Post by laughter on Sept 6, 2013 22:35:32 GMT -5
This choice that's being referred to doesn't seem rational to the rational thinker. We are all deceived until the day we are not. This day happens when the small (s) in self sees(realization) the big(S) in Self. At which point the Divine hypnosis which RB refers to is undone. It's a profound understanding not of the mind but from a much more subtle body if you will. Nowhereman
For such a one rises above all others
Absent self-deception the false distinctions of above or below fail to deceive.
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Post by nowhereman on Sept 6, 2013 22:44:03 GMT -5
shhhh I know but I got the image before the words had to make it work somehow lol
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Sept 7, 2013 6:03:20 GMT -5
So you refuse to play along with the story. That's okay. Then please pick another instance where someone is "pretending" (in the sense we're discussing here) and the stops the "pretense". If there is indeed no solution then how does the deception ever stop? But of course there is a solution. Some self-deceptions cease to function, so they are solved. How did it happen? To be self-deceived is an obvious violation of logic, this means that the person in question is clearly behaving irrationally, and then you advice the person to use logic, see through a problem and make the logical choice to stop the self-deception. To claim that someone is self-deceived is to claim that the person in question is crazy, why do you expect this person to be able to make rational choices?That's the first point. The other point is that obviously we would have a long time ago stopped the self-deception because then we would have a much better life. Why don't we? This choice that's being referred to doesn't seem rational to the rational thinker. But of course it's rational! Who would deny paradise if it were just one simple choice away? Not a rational thinker.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Sept 7, 2013 6:12:26 GMT -5
So you refuse to play along with the story. That's okay. Then please pick another instance where someone is "pretending" (in the sense we're discussing here) and the stops the "pretense". If there is indeed no solution then how does the deception ever stop? But of course there is a solution. Some self-deceptions cease to function, so they are solved. How did it happen? As a result of willingness, honesty, integrity, sincerity. The opposite of being self-deceptive and the four qualities you've listed are the same thing. It's like saying that people stopped being self-deceptive because they stopped being self-deceptive. That's why you haven't answered my question. Silence and Laughter say it's a choice. If it is not a choice then what? Grace (accident)? Then it's still the same problem. I think we agree that the accident isn't some kind of divine transcendental miracle, and then it would be some "mechnical" process that we could trigger by manipulating the relevant area/process in the body/mind. Then why do you bother talking to them (the self-deceived, irrational, crazy)? Seems to me like you're wasting your time. We could say that you too are behaving irrationaly, because you're trying to talk some sense into the crazy. Okay, but this would mean that it's foerever and ever impossible to leave self-deception once you're in it. Obviously self-deception ceases to exist in some cases. So far your theory totally fails to account both for how self-deception can arrive and for how the end of self-deception is possible.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Sept 7, 2013 6:13:03 GMT -5
Seems to be that this effectively amounts to a multi-level mind. I wanted to make the distinction between a multi-level mind and a mind consisting of integrated processes, because I wanted to make the point that there is no place where information can be hidden away. Repression, suppression, unconscious, subconscious, super-conscious, Id, ego, self deception, denial, projection all refer to processes in the integrated mind and not mind levels. Your unification of mind is only theoretical. Effectively what your explanation amounts to is a multi-leveled mind. If it weren't so then we would have to deal with all the minor details of bodily functioning, but we don't. For mind to be multi-leveld doesn't at all mean that it must consist of areas ontologically totally isolated from each other.
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Post by enigma on Sept 7, 2013 10:23:07 GMT -5
As a result of willingness, honesty, integrity, sincerity. The opposite of being self-deceptive and the four qualities you've listed are the same thing. It's like saying that people stopped being self-deceptive because they stopped being self-deceptive. That's why you haven't answered my question. Suffering tends to bring about those qualities. Curiosity can be very helpful. An endless array of experiences may lead one to value and emulate those qualities. A sense of futility may lead one to conclude there is no other option. Clarity and understanding are very helpful. I'm sure there are many more. I'm not sure how to turn it into a method. Not crazy. What I mean by insanity is what most of society would consider normal. It may be true that I'm wasting my time. I don't know how you conclude that.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Sept 7, 2013 14:13:06 GMT -5
The opposite of being self-deceptive and the four qualities you've listed are the same thing. It's like saying that people stopped being self-deceptive because they stopped being self-deceptive. That's why you haven't answered my question. Suffering tends to bring about those qualities. Curiosity can be very helpful. An endless array of experiences may lead one to value and emulate those qualities. A sense of futility may lead one to conclude there is no other option. Clarity and understanding are very helpful. I'm sure there are many more. I'm not sure how to turn it into a method. You're still evading my question. What you have so far said about how self-deception takes over seems to me like complete nonsense. Extremely speculative and full of contradictions. What you have said about cessation of self-deception is equally untenable. In the final result your argument basically amounts to a "self-deception stops because self-deception stops". I suggest that this logical error is what causes you to believe that there is no method to stop self-deception.
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Post by laughter on Sept 7, 2013 14:40:28 GMT -5
This choice that's being referred to doesn't seem rational to the rational thinker. But of course it's rational! Who would deny paradise if it were just one simple choice away? Not a rational thinker. Paradise is an illusion of the thinker, rational or otherwise.
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Post by laughter on Sept 7, 2013 14:45:58 GMT -5
As a result of willingness, honesty, integrity, sincerity. The opposite of being self-deceptive and the four qualities you've listed are the same thing. It's like saying that people stopped being self-deceptive because they stopped being self-deceptive. That's why you haven't answered my question. Silence and Laughter say it's a choice. If it is not a choice then what? Grace (accident)? Then it's still the same problem. I think we agree that the accident isn't some kind of divine transcendental miracle, and then it would be some "mechnical" process that we could trigger by manipulating the relevant area/process in the body/mind. Then why do you bother talking to them (the self-deceived, irrational, crazy)? Seems to me like you're wasting your time. We could say that you too are behaving irrationaly, because you're trying to talk some sense into the crazy. Okay, but this would mean that it's foerever and ever impossible to leave self-deception once you're in it. Obviously self-deception ceases to exist in some cases. So far your theory totally fails to account both for how self-deception can arrive and for how the end of self-deception is possible. Willingness, integrity and sincerity lead away from self-deception. In these terms, it's a matter of degree and it makes sense to speak in terms of a spectrum. To choose you have to have the options available and see these clearly. There's nothing subject to manipulation that can lead toward the absence that's pointed to by reference to self-realization but the unnecessary obstacles can be set aside and that's a different set of choices.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Sept 7, 2013 14:56:37 GMT -5
Willingness, integrity and sincerity lead away from self-deception. In these terms, it's a matter of degree and it makes sense to speak in terms of a spectrum. To choose you have to have the options available and see these clearly. There's nothing subject to manipulation that can lead toward the absence that's pointed to by reference to self-realization but the unnecessary obstacles can be set aside and that's a different set of choices. Everyone to some degree has willingness, sincerity, curiosity, etc. The point is that in E's narrative they exactly do not address self-deception. Once these qualities do adress self-deception the deception according to E necessarily instantly ceases to function. That's why there is no process toward seeing through self-deception, and the whole thing effectively amounts to a "self-deception stopped because self-deception stopped".
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Sept 7, 2013 14:56:59 GMT -5
But of course it's rational! Who would deny paradise if it were just one simple choice away? Not a rational thinker. Paradise is an illusion of the thinker, rational or otherwise. Now you're trolling again.
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Post by laughter on Sept 7, 2013 15:41:58 GMT -5
Paradise is an illusion of the thinker, rational or otherwise. Now you're trolling again. I'm sorry, but I sincerely disagree with you on that point. Is it the word "illusion" that you find pejorative?
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Post by laughter on Sept 7, 2013 15:45:23 GMT -5
Willingness, integrity and sincerity lead away from self-deception. In these terms, it's a matter of degree and it makes sense to speak in terms of a spectrum. To choose you have to have the options available and see these clearly. There's nothing subject to manipulation that can lead toward the absence that's pointed to by reference to self-realization but the unnecessary obstacles can be set aside and that's a different set of choices. Everyone to some degree has willingness, sincerity, curiosity, etc. Yes, this is a generality, but I'll agree with it, generally speaking that is. The point is that in E's narrative they exactly do not address self-deception. Not directly, no. Once these qualities do adress self-deception the deception according to E necessarily instantly ceases to function. That's why there is no process toward seeing through self-deception, and the whole thing effectively amounts to a "self-deception stopped because self-deception stopped". There's no way to convey with information the absence of information other than to refer to it indirectly by informing of the absence.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Sept 7, 2013 16:08:21 GMT -5
Now you're trolling again. I'm sorry, but I sincerely disagree with you on that point. Is it the word "illusion" that you find pejorative? No, it's that you're getting hung up on the word "paradise".
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