I'm a lazy "don't know"

[giannis]

I find that I don't know what I really want out of all this "search" and out of life.

In the past, I used to think that I'd like to find out if I'm immortal or something, later I wanted to understand life and what I'm doing here.

Now, I don't even know if I'm really interested in finding out.
I would like of course to fulfill desires, sex, money etc.
But even desires come and go, I'm kind of bored to believe in them.
They will go away when I'll die, it's stupid to try to control them, I just don't take them so seriously.

I don't know what I want. Probably, if I will start a job, a family etc, I will get sucked right into the plot of it and try to do my best (or not).

In the past, I've been involved with several hobbies and in most of them, I did well for some months or years, but I lost interest and faith in them and did not feel fulfilled. I mostly undertook them for being "smarter", more capable, more competitive etc. Of course, I found out that there were better and more capable persons than me (ego crashed sometimes, even though I excelled in some stuff), but instead of trying harder, I simply lost interest and found the whole endeavour to be futile... I had an interest in many areas, from martial arts and chess, to picking up girls and playing violin and piano. Feeling that these things are important simply fades out.

I tried psychedelics, strange experiences (out of body exper., lucid dreaming, meditations, finding information about dead people in visions... you know, this "stuff")... But ok, they don't change anything for real, or they don't make me stop looking for "something" (am I?). Actually, they didn't give something constant.

I don't find anything wrong with the whole life on earth, but I keep finding myself looking for something. I don't know anymore what this is.

I even dropped out of university at the final semester.
I made some (small) money and left the "business" ...
Now I live with my family, being the "good son". At least I love being around my parents while they're alive.

I read somewhere that it's essential for the spiritual search to be sincere, find out what I want and decide totally to find out about it with all my spirit. Mmm, how? My wantings come to me as an accident.

It would be a lie to tell that I know what I'm looking for, that I'm putting all my energy and stamina into this "search", that I even have a purpose or a calling.
I think that I have nothing at all. I'm just here.

So, probably, I'm not gonna make it, but ok.
This is my "lazy state" of life.
(It seems to me like the concept of "willpower" to succeed is some children concept, I have it so rarely.)

I'm meditating, thinking about "that" etc, but it just seems that I'm just here playing games while I don't know what I really want.

To tell truth, I don't know what I'm asking for with this post, but any criticism or opinion would be welcome.
thanks.

[lightmystic]

Actually, it sounds like you've come to a very important turning point. You've come to a fork in the road, and I recommend you take it (the fork).

Recognizing that there doesn't seem to be any real fulfillment in this world, and yet there is nothing in particular you want, sounds like a form of spiritual depression. That's not a fun thing, but it's a good sign. It's a sign that forward movement is inevitable. You say you'll probably just try to make do with what you can, even though you recognize that it's not really fulfillment. CAN you really do that? I know I would have done that if I could, but it wasn't a possibility for me. I couldn't stomach it. Frankly, I'm not sure, from what you've posted, that you can or will be able to either. I think being able to do that requires a little bit of being able to tell yourself that it makes you happy, and if you can't do that, then there's really no way to rationalize it. There's no way to settle for it.

It also sounds like you've said that you do not want anything limited. You don't want a concept, even a concept of something like Enlightenment. That's great! And, while it appears to mean that accepting that means accepting never having fulfillment, it actuall DOESN'T. Which is great to know, because it means you can be fulfilled even if you don't know what you want.

So here's what can be done: Instead of trying to define what you want (which doesn't really seem to be working anyway), recognize that what you want is a FEELING. Really recognize that the feeling is already there inside of you in seed form. Now, obviously seed form is not enough to be satisfying in any way, but you can recognize that it MUST be in there for you to even feel like there's something missing, it must be in you. To even know that a lack exists, the fulfillment of the lack is known as well. That recognition will allow you to place your attention on that feeling of fulfillment, that FEELING of what you want. That attention waters the seed of the feeling. So it can grow into satisfying fulfillment. Let the attention to that feeling enliven the feeling, so it grows stronger and stronger. This may take a little bit of time - a few days, a week, something like that (especially at first). Don't try to define it, or try to figure out what it's going to look like on the surface. Just know that it will come in whatever way makes the most sense for you as the feeling is allowed. And be innocent with it. Just see where the feeling takes you.


This will allow the feeling to express itself on the surface in whatever way is most natural, and so no possibilities of HOW that fulfillment comes up are being cut off. This, when really trusted and allowed to naturally happen (without attempt to control - but just gentle open attention) always works. And I'm personally very excited to hear where it will lead you.

Anyway, does that make sense? What do you think?

[giannis]

It's difficult to understand if I want anything at all, since I don't know what it is (if it is). Maybe I don't want anything.

But as I read your post, I suspect that I must be wanting something, or else I wouldn't feel and act this way.
Sometimes, listening about "enlightenment" and fulfillment makes me overly emotional (which is kind of stupid), but I have to accept the possibility that there can be something over there.

I will try to do what you suggest, I wish I will do it right and understand it correctly (not sure).
Already my mind rushes forward to tell me that I have to stay on the current "meditation" style and not try everything here and there, usual mind functioning I guess.

You are right. There is possibly something there, on the feeling side.
Not sure what exactly, but I'll try and see.

Thanks, really.

[souley]

Nobody knows what they want, but many might think that they do, until they get it..?

You seem like a very honest person, your story sounds alot like mine, including a few psychedelics! My passion for understanding things and my personal development brought me here, and for me this has turned out to be the real adventure in life. Honesty is a great thing, and I think you are being honest with that you simply don't know what you want. Trying to create some concept of what you want is what we learn to do, but does it really make any difference?

[giannis]

Indeed souley, having a concept of what I want doesn't seem to make any difference.

The good think about beginning this thread is that I admit more and more that I definately want something. That's the only thing that I can admit, not something in particular, but there is a wanting.

So, lightmystic, I admit that there is a wanting by my part. I can't admit that I want to have a "feeling", but I admit that there is a "wanting-feeling" in me, allthough not a particular one.

A different thing from a desire. Maybe this is the longing that people talk about.

Yes, I admit the existance of that more and more as I think about it.
That's what I can put my attention on.
I can't put my attention on the fulfillment "seed" as you describe it though. Many vague-feelings pop out claiming to be the seed of fulfillment.

[fear]

Giannis, you've come to the right place.

I have and continue to experience what you are feeling. I don't know what I want either. I find that there is nothing to gain and nowhere to go.

Of course I say that but continue to go to work and pay my bills and check girls out and drink and party. I think I do these things out of habit and I'm finding that I'm neutral a lot of the time. I don't get super happy and I don't day dream of having the amazing trophy wife, the sports car, or of winning the lottery. I think to myself what's the point. All those things are limited. I want something permanent.

I think what we all want, is permanent happiness. But we know it's impossible so we become confused. All enlightened beings experienced this. U.G Krishnamurti, Peace Pilgrim, Mooji, Buddha, Jesus all reached a state of total confusion where they left their lives and wandered with no possessions aimlessly. Buddha left his life as a prince and sat under a fig tree, U.G left his family and wandered London and other cities just living in the streets, Jesus spent 40days in the desert, Mooji also wandered the steets. What you and I are experincing is the beginning of this confusion. You may be deeper into it than I am and I'm not saying that you have to leave your family and wander but there will come a time when you are approaching Reality and you will have to get rid of all attachments and you will be in a state of total confusion.

[lightmystic]

You're quite welcome!

I'd love to hear how it goes....

Jul 21, 2009 15:10:43 GMT -5 giannis said:

It's difficult to understand if I want anything at all, since I don't know what it is (if it is). Maybe I don't want anything.

But as I read your post, I suspect that I must be wanting something, or else I wouldn't feel and act this way.
Sometimes, listening about "enlightenment" and fulfillment makes me overly emotional (which is kind of stupid), but I have to accept the possibility that there can be something over there.

I will try to do what you suggest, I wish I will do it right and understand it correctly (not sure).
Already my mind rushes forward to tell me that I have to stay on the current "meditation" style and not try everything here and there, usual mind functioning I guess.

You are right. There is possibly something there, on the feeling side.
Not sure what exactly, but I'll try and see.

Thanks, really.

[astenny]

Jul 21, 2009 17:06:47 GMT -5 fear said:

Giannis, you've come to the right place.

I have and continue to experience what you are feeling. I don't know what I want either. I find that there is nothing to gain and nowhere to go.

Of course I say that but continue to go to work and pay my bills and check girls out and drink and party. I think I do these things out of habit and I'm finding that I'm neutral a lot of the time. I don't get super happy and I don't day dream of having the amazing trophy wife, the sports car, or of winning the lottery. I think to myself what's the point. All those things are limited. I want something permanent.

I think what we all want, is permanent happiness. But we know it's impossible so we become confused. All enlightened beings experienced this. U.G Krishnamurti, Peace Pilgrim, Mooji, Buddha, Jesus all reached a state of total confusion where they left their lives and wandered with no possessions aimlessly. Buddha left his life as a prince and sat under a fig tree, U.G left his family and wandered London and other cities just living in the streets, Jesus spent 40days in the desert, Mooji also wandered the steets. What you and I are experincing is the beginning of this confusion. You may be deeper into it than I am and I'm not saying that you have to leave your family and wander but there will come a time when you are approaching Reality and you will have to get rid of all attachments and you will be in a state of total confusion.

What they hopefully all realized at the end of the road is that they didn't have to leave everything behind to achieve what they wanted. Yes, it is easier to achieve enlightenment when you have no possessions, but one doesn't have to leave ones family and friends behind to do so. In the end all we need is within us, and that will be there no matter where or when we are.

[lightmystic]

I appreciate your point astenny, and you are ultimately correct. Perhaps, you're saying the same thing, but it's true that one has to leave everything behind, even if it's not physically....

Physically leaving stuff behind but not emotionally leaving it behind - feeling the lack of something because of losing it, will not really bring Enlightenment. Leaving something behind - letting go of the need for it - is required, whether that's physically or not. There's no more value to proving that it's physical than not. When it's let go of internally, then it's REALLY let go of internally. End of story.

Often, I find these things either drop off naturally or are ripped away at a certain point. So actively TRYING to unattached isn't something that really works ultimately. What can be done, though, is to recognize that removing attachment is what the process is, and that can allow for less resistance as it starts to come up more and more.

Also, non-attachment does not mean that one has nothing. It means that one recognizes that one will always have what one needs, and so by losing something, they can relax, knowing that it will come a different way, or that something more right for the situation will come along next. This, of course, is on the emotional level, not an intellectual one.

I hope that makes sense....

Jul 22, 2009 11:12:28 GMT -5 astenny said:

What they hopefully all realized at the end of the road is that they didn't have to leave everything behind to achieve what they wanted. Yes, it is easier to achieve enlightenment when you have no possessions, but one doesn't have to leave ones family and friends behind to do so. In the end all we need is within us, and that will be there no matter where or when we are.

[astenny]

Sorry, I tend to be short and to the point and forget to explain in depth. I agree non-attachment to things does not mean you own nothing. We can own nothing and still be attached materially. There have been many people who have been helped by taking the path of the monk or ascetic, but it isn't necessary for enlightenment.

[jay]

immortal? Probably. But, as you say, all experiences come and go. It is pretty certain your memory is not immortal. You'll lose it when you die. Evidence of this is you don't remember before you were born, or even the early parts of your life (I assume). Does being immortal count if you don't have any memory? It counts in my opinion bc there seems to be an innate sense of immortality in the mind. To me, immortal doesn't mean a long time, it means no time.

[astenny]

Aug 6, 2009 1:57:53 GMT -5 jay said:

immortal? Probably. But, as you say, all experiences come and go. It is pretty certain your memory is not immortal. You'll lose it when you die. Evidence of this is you don't remember before you were born, or even the early parts of your life (I assume). Does being immortal count if you don't have any memory? It counts in my opinion bc there seems to be an innate sense of immortality in the mind. To me, immortal doesn't mean a long time, it means no time.

The memory of past lives isn't lost, more like it is suppressed. The purpose is to grow and learn from each life, adding each to the whole. With work one can remember past lives, or at least some of them.

[zendancer]

This was a very interesting thread to read. I'll add a few comments that some of you might find helpful.

Every human being is uniquely different. Some of us know what we have to do and some of us don't. Please notice that the two questions, "What must I be doing?" and "What do I want to do?" are different. The latter question is more reflective and involves a greater level of abstraction.

Young children do not spend much time thinking about what they want or what they "ought" to be doing; they just act. Their bodies know what to do. As a child, I was one of those people who, from the earliest age, was always deeply and completely consumed by my interests. I had countless hobbies and I intensely pursued them. I lived in the present moment, like most children, and I was always totally absorbed in what I was doing. I didn;t spend much time reflecting.

During college I became an intellectual and began to reflect upon everything, including my own thinking (and my thinking about thinking). The more I reflected, the more I lost my direction and the more I lost my knowledge of what to do moment by moment. After my sophomore year, I no longer knew what I wanted to do with my life (a very abstract concept), and I entered a period of extreme angst. Life seemed absurd, and I could not find any meaning or reason for doing anything. I read existentialist philosophers and got more and more depressed. I began to realize that I didn't know anything about anything. With all of my education and book knowledge I couldn't answer a single existential question. I drifted along, got a degree in a subject that no longer interested me, entered graduate school, but soon became so disenchanted with the idea of further study, that I dropped out and volunteered to join the Air Force. During Basic Training I was kept so physcially active that I had no time to reflect, and guess what? My reflective thought and my angst disappeared. This was an important clue, but I didn't get it until more than twenty years later.

After Vietnam and several near-death experiences (car crashes, mountain-climbing epics, rocket attacks, etc), I got interested in a different subject than what I studied in college, went back to school, went to work, got married, started a business, and then burned out from too much work-related and financial stress. At the age of forty I felt trapped, and all of my angst returned. I was too far in debt to quit what I was doing, and all of my past intellectual questioning returned with a vengeance. Again, my life seemed meaningless. I didn;t know who I was, or where I was going, or why I was here, or what I ought to be doing. My mind ran in circles all day long, worrying, fantasizing, reflecting, calculating, resisting, etc. Then, at some deep level I began to crave peace and silence, but I didn't know where to find it. Fortunately, I read about a Zen breathing exercise, and began to spend an hour each day practicing it. After a month, I added a second hour. After two more months, I added a third hour. Shortly thereafter I had a huge enlightenment experience, learned many things, found lots of answers, became a mystic, and regained my true direction. Everything that happened seemed to occur as a result of becoming relatively silent. Therefore, my most important recommendation for anyone who wants to find the truth, or wants to find God, or wants to know what to do, is to set aside some time for silence. As a famous Zen Master once said, "Become silent and everything will be revealed." Or, as the Bible puts it, "Be still, and know that I am God." Or, as G. Spencer Brown put it, "Be still, and simply bear in mind what you want to know."

To continue the story, I did not become enlightened as a result of my big mystical experience, and I still had hundreds of questions that I needed to resolve. Because I felt like silence had led to my initial breakthrough, I began to think about running off to a mountaintop, meditating for a year or two, finding the answers to all of my questions, and becoming a great spiritual teacher. This fantasy was very powerful, and it created lots of problems. I was running a business with employees and subcontractors, I had a family that I loved, and I did not feel free to go do the Buddha thing. I began have new thoughts that I didn't have the courage of a Buddha. Here is the important point---all of these ideas that were jerking me around were nothing more than layers of fantasies upon fantasies. One day I was pouring concrete on a construction project when one of these thoughts hit me again. The exact thought was, "Why am I having to do this stupid meaningless work when I should be off on a mountaintop getting enlightened?" Then, for the first time, I saw that thought and how it separated me from the truth of what is. This caused me to ask myself a very simple question, "What must I be doing this moment?" Not tomorrow or next week, but right this moment. I realized that I had to be pouring concrete. It was crystal clear, and for the next several weeks, every time a fantasy would appear in my mind, and I recognized it, I would ask myself, "What must I be doing this exact moment?" The answer was always crystal clear. It took several weeks, but gradually this question freed me from my fantasies and brought me back to reality. I can therefore highly recommend the use of this question any time a person is being bothered with ideas about the future, or about what he or she should do, or about what he or she wants.

The third important point I'd like to make is that after beginning that breath awareness exercise at the age of forty, I never stopped practicing silence. I went on silent weekend retreats, I tried lots of other practices for creating mental space, and I did lots of solo hiking in the woods, during which time I concentrated on what I could see and hear rather than thoughts. Gradually my mind became silent, and the answers to all of my questions were eventually resolved. In 1999 the answer to my last question appeared and I was finally free. Now, it is my great privilege and joy to do whatever I can to help others find that same freedom.

In my experience, formal meditation (such as Zen sitting) is not necessary (even though that methodology helped me). I don't think it matters whether you sit on a cushion or walk in the woods. Each person has to find out what will work best for him/her. I no longer do much sitting in silence, because my mind is relatively quiet, and because I live in a state of present moment-to-moment awareness. In a sense, much of my daily life is an informal kind of meditation. Once a week or so I go for a long hike in the woods or climb a mountain and enjoy a period of sustained silence. This body/mind enjoys silence more than words can convey, and my favorite quote from Eckhart Tolle goes something like this, "If someone asked me to name my greatest accomplishment, I would say that it was attaining freedom from the habit incessant thought." Eckhart knows that he didn't accomplish anything because he knows he isn't a separate entity, but he is using these words to point to something of great value. In a sense, Eckhart was luckier than most of us. He had one huge experience and, according to what he has written, 80% of his thinking stopped. This is pretty rare, and most of us are not so lucky. Most of us have to make a fairly sustained effort to attain even a moderate degree of mental silence. Yes, I know, there isn't anyone here who can make a sustained effort, but look at where these words are pointing, and don't jump to any conclusions. There are two ways to teach about this. One way is to say that there is nothing a person can do to wake up, and the other way is to say that there is something a person can do to wake up. Both of these statements are true and false at the same time, so look beyond the words. Try to grasp that there is only one process using both sets of words and each of us is that same process. See which words have the strongest ring of truth for you, and act accordingly. In the deepest sense, you can't go wrong. Cheers.