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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2013 20:21:41 GMT -5
and clones, let's not forget the clones. hehe
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2013 21:20:42 GMT -5
This magnificent refuge is inside you. Enter. Shatter the darkness that shrouds the doorway… Be bold. Be humble. Put away the incense and forget the incantations they taught you. Ask no permission from the authorities. Close your eyes and follow your breath to the still place that leads to the invisible path that leads you home. ~ St. Theresa of Avila
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Post by lolly on Aug 23, 2013 23:55:46 GMT -5
cigarettes smoke themselves after setting-up the cycle of sensation-seeking egos? I don't really understand anything about ego, except it seems to entail aspects of the self that people hate about themselves.
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Post by zendancer on Aug 24, 2013 5:54:12 GMT -5
This magnificent refuge is inside you. Enter. Shatter the darkness that shrouds the doorway… Be bold. Be humble. Put away the incense and forget the incantations they taught you. Ask no permission from the authorities. Close your eyes and follow your breath to the still place that leads to the invisible path that leads you home. ~ St. Theresa of Avila Nice quote.
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Post by zendancer on Aug 24, 2013 7:01:16 GMT -5
Yes, it's unlikely that the mind will become noticeably silent in 20 minutes. The average person probably spends 15 hours per day thinking, so it's a fairly ingrained habit, to say the least. Niz once remarked on how frustrated he felt when he first began trying to stay with the sense of "I AM." As he also noted, "You didn't get into this mess (of thinking you're a separate entity) overnight." If you're like most people, you won't get out of the mess overnight. It took Niz 3 years; it took Rinzai 3 years, and both of them were spending several hours each day shifting attention away from thoughts. Unless you're extremely lucky it's not an overnight matter. Tolle has some very good advice for beginners: Try to watch for thoughts as they emerge, like watching for a little black mouse emerging from a whole in a dimly lit room. Also, remain very alert, very aware, and relaxed as much and as often as possible. Each body/mind must find its own path, and there seems to be an endless array of possibilities. The Zen "one size fits all" approach can be summarized as, "Sit down, shut up, still the body (which helps still the mind), and focus attention upon the breathing process until the mind becomes sufficiently silent. Then sit in silent unfocused absorption until everything becomes clear." Some Zen traditions use koans and suggest that contemplating existential questions is a more effective path to realization. Vipassana folks encourage mindfulness--watching everything, including thoughts. Niz's teacher and Niz, himself, recommended remaining aware of the sense of "I AM." Ramana recommended self inquiry. Tess Hughes' path was inquiring into the Will of God. Many eastern traditions encourage a path of devotion. Some Tibetan Buddhist traditions encourage the intensive use of mantras as a starting point and then add loving kindness meditation practices and various visualization exercises. ATA has been pursued by some people. Tai Chi, kendo, archery, flower arranging, and the tea ceremony have also been used successfully as pathways to realization. Looking at all of these different paths, what is common to them all? First, they involve shifting attention away from thoughts to "what is," second, they involve a high state of active alertness, third, they involve staying present, psychologically, fourth, they eventually cause reflective thoughts about selfhood to be left behind, and fifth, they involve a shift from en-head-i-ment to embodiment (exchanging a head-centered perspective for a body-centered perspective in which the mind is no longer dominant). They could probably all be summarized as "Be here now, psychologically, without reflection, until the body/mind is realized to be the Self, or THIS, and then watch THIS continue to unfold as THIS." (FWIW, on most models of the pathless path Self-Realization is considered to be somewhere around stage 6 on a scale of 1 to 10) In the Zen tradition many people slavishly follow the admonition to meditate in a lotus position and become attached to the practice as well as the idea that they are making progress. For those people the practice seems to increase the sense of selfhood rather than diminish it. They would probably be better off searching for some other pathway that wouldn't trigger so much self reflection. This same thing can be seen in many other traditions as well. Probably the best advice is for people to experiment with many different pathways until they can find a specific path with which they resonate or parts of different paths that are all aiming at the same thing. One size does not fit all, and trusting oneself and using common sense seems to be key.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2013 7:56:57 GMT -5
cigarettes smoke themselves after setting-up the cycle of sensation-seeking egos? I don't really understand anything about ego, except it seems to entail aspects of the self that people hate about themselves. people dont really know much. If you want to know about ego, just watch. Watching reveals stuff happening before the s h i t hits the fan an splatters over the onlookers; those ppl that have developed a dislike of their ego. I think habits are interesting quirks. Watching habitual behaviour can be liberating as the watcher seems to absorb the energy somehow, (without taking) deflating the habit from following-through with action. Like, after the first sip of alcohol(or glass) who takes the second an when does automation sneak-in?
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Post by enigma on Aug 24, 2013 21:30:41 GMT -5
cigarettes smoke themselves after setting-up the cycle of sensation-seeking egos? I don't really understand anything about ego, except it seems to entail aspects of the self that people hate about themselves. There's nothing to understand. It's the thought complex consisting of self referencing labels, both the ones you like and the ones you don't like. You put it together, so how could it be a mystery?
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Post by Beingist on Aug 24, 2013 22:28:20 GMT -5
I don't really understand anything about ego, except it seems to entail aspects of the self that people hate about themselves. There's nothing to understand. It's the thought complex consisting of self referencing labels, both the ones you like and the ones you don't like. You put it together, so how could it be a mystery? Quick question: how could it not be a mystery? You mentioned some posts ago, that one can't recognize their own self-deception. Ego, I should think, would follow along the same lines.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2013 22:48:40 GMT -5
There's nothing to understand. It's the thought complex consisting of self referencing labels, both the ones you like and the ones you don't like. You put it together, so how could it be a mystery? Quick question: how could it not be a mystery? You mentioned some posts ago, that one can't recognize their own self-deception. Ego, I should think, would follow along the same lines. That's all E talks about is Giraffes so I can't see him saying that they can't be recognized... Your obviously not paying attention to the realization sermons...
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Post by enigma on Aug 24, 2013 23:43:03 GMT -5
There's nothing to understand. It's the thought complex consisting of self referencing labels, both the ones you like and the ones you don't like. You put it together, so how could it be a mystery? Quick question: how could it not be a mystery? You mentioned some posts ago, that one can't recognize their own self-deception. Ego, I should think, would follow along the same lines. No, the content of self identification is neither a self deception nor a mystery. Lolly says he doesn't understand anything about that content, and yet it is he who has gathered it for a lifetime. It's true that there is self deception involved in the identification itself, as there is no real evidence for such a self, but ego is no more than the defining of that self, which is done to make it seem real. How can one not know what those labels consist of? (I am a man, a good person, a father, etc) This is all ego is. There is nothing unknown about it.
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Post by Beingist on Aug 24, 2013 23:47:15 GMT -5
Quick question: how could it not be a mystery? You mentioned some posts ago, that one can't recognize their own self-deception. Ego, I should think, would follow along the same lines. No, the content of self identification is neither a self deception nor a mystery. Lolly says he doesn't understand anything about that content, and yet it is he who has gathered it for a lifetime. It's true that there is self deception involved in the identification itself, as there is no real evidence for such a self, but ego is no more than the defining of that self, which is done to make it seem real. How can one not know what those labels consist of? ( I am a man, a good person, a father, etc) This is all ego is. There is nothing unknown about it. Are not all that is bolded above no less self-deceptions as any other?
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Post by enigma on Aug 24, 2013 23:48:30 GMT -5
Quick question: how could it not be a mystery? You mentioned some posts ago, that one can't recognize their own self-deception. Ego, I should think, would follow along the same lines. That's all E talks about is Giraffes so I can't see him saying that they can't be recognized... Your obviously not paying attention to the realization sermons... True, obviously self deception CAN be recognized, at which point it is no longer self deception. I may have said something like, by definition, that which one is deceiving oneself about is not recognized as a self deception. IOW, I can't ask you to give me a list of stuff you are deceiving yourself about, because you are deceiving yourself about it.
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Post by Beingist on Aug 24, 2013 23:53:49 GMT -5
That's all E talks about is Giraffes so I can't see him saying that they can't be recognized... Your obviously not paying attention to the realization sermons... True, obviously self deception CAN be recognized, at which point it is no longer self deception. I may have said something like, by definition, that which one is deceiving oneself about is not recognized as a self deception. IOW, I can't ask you to give me a list of stuff you are deceiving yourself about, because you are deceiving yourself about it. ... any more than one can see their own ego, because they're identifying with something.
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Post by silver on Aug 24, 2013 23:54:53 GMT -5
No, the content of self identification is neither a self deception nor a mystery. Lolly says he doesn't understand anything about that content, and yet it is he who has gathered it for a lifetime. It's true that there is self deception involved in the identification itself, as there is no real evidence for such a self, but ego is no more than the defining of that self, which is done to make it seem real. How can one not know what those labels consist of? ( I am a man, a good person, a father, etc) This is all ego is. There is nothing unknown about it. Are not all that is bolded above no less self-deceptions as any other? With all that you've said (most of you), is a father not a father? Is a man not a man? I can understand the good person not being a good person - but just a person. This is where you seem to take a turn into the deep dark forest.
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Post by Beingist on Aug 24, 2013 23:57:38 GMT -5
Are not all that is bolded above no less self-deceptions as any other? With all that you've said (most of you), is a father not a father? Is a man not a man? I can understand the good person not being a good person - but just a person. This is where you seem to take a turn into the deep dark forest. Ag: I am. Everything else is self-deception.
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