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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2017 11:45:39 GMT -5
"What do you mean by study? That means you are only trying to remember the concepts. What I am saying is that you become concept-free. Put an ax to the concepts, including the concept ‘I am’." Ah okay. I Am as a concept only. Not 'experienced.' The I Am interpretation and concept arises from the experience of the 'sense' of existing. But they are both observable. Which means you are there prior to their arising. The question is can you live in a world abiding in a place which is only conscious of consciousness, without mixing it with the arising of the sense of I AM, a person that exists in a world of other things that exist? |
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Post by andrew on May 1, 2017 11:52:57 GMT -5
This for me is the key bit. I agree merging does change everything, and I would agree that the sense of I am returns, but as part of that change, it is no longer experienced or known in the same way. I would say the attachment to the sense of existing has fallen away, so the sense becomes largely inconsequential. In one way we no longer experience ourselves as separate FROM the sense so experientially, by and large, it is as if it is not there, even though it is there ( unless we drop again into the deeper state in which nothing is happening ) I am is a sense. So you are there 'prior' to 'observe' that sense. You perceive the sense I am from a place that is empty of all sense perception. That is your true home. You can either look outward at the sense of I am or you can look at it from the outside. You determine where you want to look from. Yes I agree it is a sense, and also that the Absolute knows I am, but I don't see this knowing as observational or perceptive in its nature, it is more 'natural' than that. The knowing is too instantaneous to be observational/perceptive in it's nature. So I would say the sense of I am is observed through a process of self-reflection, introspection, or turning attention inwards in a particular way. |
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Post by maxdprophet on May 1, 2017 12:00:47 GMT -5
"What do you mean by study? That means you are only trying to remember the concepts. What I am saying is that you become concept-free. Put an ax to the concepts, including the concept ‘I am’." Ah okay. I Am as a concept only. Not 'experienced.' The I Am interpretation and concept arises from the experience of the 'sense' of existing. But they are both observable. Which means you are there prior to their arising. The question is can you live in a world abiding in a place which is only conscious of consciousness, without mixing it with the arising of the sense of I AM, a person that exists in a world of other things that exist? 'I am' as concept is like the emptiness of 'emptiness.' |
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Post by andrew on May 1, 2017 12:03:21 GMT -5
prahlad.org/gallery/nisargadatta/books/Nisargadatta-The_Ultimate_Medicine.pdfFrom page 5 of Ultimate Medicine: "Because that food-body is there, and that slice of bread, the "I-am-ness" appears. Since this is dependent on the body, it is ignorance; therefore, this "I-am-ness" knowledge cannot remain permanently, it is a function of this food-body. So long as the food-body is present, this "I-am-ness" will remain. Thereafter, it will go." ... "When the food-body is dropped by the vital breath, the "I-am-ness" will set. So "I-am-ness" is not permanent either; the consciousness is not permanent." page 7 "When you are in consciousness, you understand the nature of consciousness and you recede. Your progress continues. This consciousness and you recede. Your progress continues. This consciousness is slowly extinguishing itself; knowingly it is disappearing. But nothing affects You, because that is the Absolute. Just like when the flame is gone, the smoke is gone, the sky remains." ... "That is the Brahman of death, the moment of death. Watching occurs, the vital breath is leaving the body, :I-am-ness" is receding, vanishing. That is the greatest moment, the moment of immortality. "The body, the flame, that "I-am-ness," is there; its movements are there, and I observe. And it is extinguished. the vital breath deserts the body, that flame is not there. You observe that. That observation occurs to you. The ignorant one at the moment of death is in a great fright: he is struggling. But not the jnani; for him it is the happiest moment, the most blissful one." Also from TUM ''My guru further pointed out to me the fact that the only thing you have and which you can utilize to unravel the mystery of life, is this knowledge I am. Without that there is absolutely nothing, so I got hold of it, as my guru advised me, and then I wanted to find out how the spiritual aspect of me came about without my knowledge. On my pure Absoluteness, which has no place, and no shape or form, this knowledge I am came, which also has no shape or form. Therefore, it appears; and it is only an illusion.'' ''This itself is the greatest miracle, that I got the news I am have you any doubts that you are? It is self-evident. Prior to knowing that you are, what knowledge did you have? Dhyana means to have an objective. You want to consider something. You are that something, just to be, you are. Just being the being I am. You meditate on something; that knowledge I am is yourself. Abide only there. How can you ask any questions at this point? Because that is the beginning of knowledge.'' ''The feeling I am is the quintessence of everything, but I the Absolute am not that. That I amness is the highest knowledge. And this is surrendered here by the abidance in the action.'' ---- |
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2017 12:05:08 GMT -5
I am is a sense. So you are there 'prior' to 'observe' that sense. You perceive the sense I am from a place that is empty of all sense perception. That is your true home. You can either look outward at the sense of I am or you can look at it from the outside. You determine where you want to look from. Yes I agree it is a sense, and also that the Absolute knows I am, but I don't see this knowing as observational or perceptive in it's nature, it is more 'natural' than that. The knowing is too instantaneous to be observational/perceptive in it's nature. So I would say the sense of I am is observed through a process of self-reflection, introspection, or turning attention inwards in a particular way. Self-reflection is looking in at that sense of I Am from the outside where mind is. "The place you are looking for is the place you are looking from". Or as Rumi said, 'I have been knocking on the door. When it opened I had been knocking from the inside'. You can't look inwards for the place where you are, you can only be(abide) in the place where you are. |
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Post by maxdprophet on May 1, 2017 12:08:37 GMT -5
prahlad.org/gallery/nisargadatta/books/Nisargadatta-The_Ultimate_Medicine.pdfFrom page 5 of Ultimate Medicine: "Because that food-body is there, and that slice of bread, the "I-am-ness" appears. Since this is dependent on the body, it is ignorance; therefore, this "I-am-ness" knowledge cannot remain permanently, it is a function of this food-body. So long as the food-body is present, this "I-am-ness" will remain. Thereafter, it will go." ... "When the food-body is dropped by the vital breath, the "I-am-ness" will set. So "I-am-ness" is not permanent either; the consciousness is not permanent." page 7 "When you are in consciousness, you understand the nature of consciousness and you recede. Your progress continues. This consciousness and you recede. Your progress continues. This consciousness is slowly extinguishing itself; knowingly it is disappearing. But nothing affects You, because that is the Absolute. Just like when the flame is gone, the smoke is gone, the sky remains." ... "That is the Brahman of death, the moment of death. Watching occurs, the vital breath is leaving the body, :I-am-ness" is receding, vanishing. That is the greatest moment, the moment of immortality. "The body, the flame, that "I-am-ness," is there; its movements are there, and I observe. And it is extinguished. the vital breath deserts the body, that flame is not there. You observe that. That observation occurs to you. The ignorant one at the moment of death is in a great fright: he is struggling. But not the jnani; for him it is the happiest moment, the most blissful one." Also from TUM ''My guru further pointed out to me the fact that the only thing you have and which you can utilize to unravel the mystery of life, is this knowledge I am. Without that there is absolutely nothing, so I got hold of it, as my guru advised me, and then I wanted to find out how the spiritual aspect of me came about without my knowledge. On my pure Absoluteness, which has no place, and no shape or form, this knowledge I am came, which also has no shape or form. Therefore, it appears; and it is only an illusion.'' ''This itself is the greatest miracle, that I got the news I am have you any doubts that you are? It is self-evident. Prior to knowing that you are, what knowledge did you have? Dhyana means to have an objective. You want to consider something. You are that something, just to be, you are. Just being the being I am. You meditate on something; that knowledge I am is yourself. Abide only there. How can you ask any questions at this point? Because that is the beginning of knowledge.'' ''The feeling I am is the quintessence of everything, but I the Absolute am not that. That I amness is the highest knowledge. And this is surrendered here by the abidance in the action.'' ---- The highest knowledge, surrenderable. |
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Post by andrew on May 1, 2017 12:12:57 GMT -5
Yes I agree it is a sense, and also that the Absolute knows I am, but I don't see this knowing as observational or perceptive in it's nature, it is more 'natural' than that. The knowing is too instantaneous to be observational/perceptive in it's nature. So I would say the sense of I am is observed through a process of self-reflection, introspection, or turning attention inwards in a particular way. Self-reflection is looking in at that sense of I Am from the outside where mind is. "The place you are looking for is the place you are looking from". Or as Rumi said, 'I have been knocking on the door. When it opened I had been knocking from the inside'. You can't look inwards for the place where you are, you can only be(abide) in the place where you are. When looking inwards happens and the sense of I am is found, it is a moment in which the false self necessarily comes into play to a slight extent. In the abidance of 'what we are' there is no looking inwards, which is why the sense of I am is irrelevant. I would say that it is there, but there is no longer a sense of being apart from it at all. The absolute doesn't know the I am in a 'sensory' way. |
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Post by andrew on May 1, 2017 12:13:49 GMT -5
Also from TUM ''My guru further pointed out to me the fact that the only thing you have and which you can utilize to unravel the mystery of life, is this knowledge I am. Without that there is absolutely nothing, so I got hold of it, as my guru advised me, and then I wanted to find out how the spiritual aspect of me came about without my knowledge. On my pure Absoluteness, which has no place, and no shape or form, this knowledge I am came, which also has no shape or form. Therefore, it appears; and it is only an illusion.'' ''This itself is the greatest miracle, that I got the news I am have you any doubts that you are? It is self-evident. Prior to knowing that you are, what knowledge did you have? Dhyana means to have an objective. You want to consider something. You are that something, just to be, you are. Just being the being I am. You meditate on something; that knowledge I am is yourself. Abide only there. How can you ask any questions at this point? Because that is the beginning of knowledge.'' ''The feeling I am is the quintessence of everything, but I the Absolute am not that. That I amness is the highest knowledge. And this is surrendered here by the abidance in the action.'' ---- The highest knowledge, surrenderable. IOW, from ignorance to highest knowledge and then back to ignorance hehe. |
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2017 12:24:34 GMT -5
Self-reflection is looking in at that sense of I Am from the outside where mind is. "The place you are looking for is the place you are looking from". Or as Rumi said, 'I have been knocking on the door. When it opened I had been knocking from the inside'. You can't look inwards for the place where you are, you can only be(abide) in the place where you are. When looking inwards happens and the sense of I am is found, it is a moment in which the false self necessarily comes into play to a slight extent. In the abidance of 'what we are' there is no looking inwards, which is why the sense of I am is irrelevant. I would say that it is there, but there is no longer a sense of being apart from it at all. The absolute doesn't know the I am in a 'sensory' way. If you don't touch that sense of I am you will simply be abiding in being. Conscious of Consciousness. It's a real place that anyone can go to in this very moment to check out for themselves. And see if what I am saying is true or not. Most won't though... |
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Post by maxdprophet on May 1, 2017 12:25:40 GMT -5
The highest knowledge, surrenderable. IOW, from ignorance to highest knowledge and then back to ignorance hehe. To Donovan's "first there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is" maybe we could change the emphasis slightly? First there is A mountain then there is no mountain then there is However it risks SDP's Wilbur restatement of the pre-trans fallacy...the 'there is' of infancy does not equal the 'there is' post SR. |
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Post by maxdprophet on May 1, 2017 12:28:28 GMT -5
When looking inwards happens and the sense of I am is found, it is a moment in which the false self necessarily comes into play to a slight extent. In the abidance of 'what we are' there is no looking inwards, which is why the sense of I am is irrelevant. I would say that it is there, but there is no longer a sense of being apart from it at all. The absolute doesn't know the I am in a 'sensory' way. If you don't touch that sense of I am you will simply be abiding in being. Conscious of Consciousness. It's a real place that anyone can go to in this very moment to check out for themselves. And see if what I am saying is true or not. Most won't though...Most won't recognize it? I don't mean that in a tricky sense. It's always here, always available, never needing an attaining, but nonetheless unrecognized. Not recognizeable in the cognize sense. But recognizeable in the familiar sense. Too obvious, too simple. |
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Post by andrew on May 1, 2017 12:31:38 GMT -5
When looking inwards happens and the sense of I am is found, it is a moment in which the false self necessarily comes into play to a slight extent. In the abidance of 'what we are' there is no looking inwards, which is why the sense of I am is irrelevant. I would say that it is there, but there is no longer a sense of being apart from it at all. The absolute doesn't know the I am in a 'sensory' way. If you don't touch that sense of I am you will simply be abiding in being. Conscious of Consciousness. It's a real place that anyone can go to in this very moment to check out for themselves. And see if what I am saying is true or not. Most won't though... The snail, which has no sense of separate self, doesn't sense 'I am', it's more subtle that that, it's not a sensory experience. For us self-conscious and self-reflective humans the sense of 'I am' can be sensed, but it's because we are self-conscious/reflective. In the abidance of what we are, we are more like the snail again. To put it another way, sensing I am requires a witness construct. It's that construct that is ultimately surrendered, so without that construct, there's no 'sense' of I am. I would still agree that the absolute 'knows' I am but the word 'know' is a little deceptive because it implies a bit of separation, it implies one thing knows another thing. They are closer than that..almost as if the 'I am' appears in the absolute, so the absolute has no way of NOT knowing it. I think this adds to the confusion of this subject...it's true that the absolute knows I am, but if it is being sensed, that's actually the false witness construct coming into play. That's consciousness coming into play. |
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2017 13:35:57 GMT -5
That's the only way it does know it. If you don't touch that sense of I am you will simply be abiding in being. Conscious of Consciousness. It's a real place that anyone can go to in this very moment to check out for themselves. And see if what I am saying is true or not. Most won't though... Most won't recognize it? I don't mean that in a tricky sense. It's always here, always available, never needing an attaining, but nonetheless unrecognized. Not recognizeable in the cognize sense. But recognizeable in the familiar sense. Too obvious, too simple. Believing the thought that you are unrecognized is what you will experience. But is the befief true? Can you the observer be veiled? It's easy to find out for yourself if you go to the place that is empty of belief. It's that place that you won't go. |
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Post by maxdprophet on May 1, 2017 15:22:51 GMT -5
Most won't recognize it? I don't mean that in a tricky sense. It's always here, always available, never needing an attaining, but nonetheless unrecognized. Not recognizeable in the cognize sense. But recognizeable in the familiar sense. Too obvious, too simple. Believing the thought that you are unrecognized is what you will experience. But is the befief true? Can you the observer be veiled? It's easy to find out for yourself if you go to the place that is empty of belief. It's that place that you won't go. Is it won't go or can't go? As in, there is only being and thoughts/belief about it. |
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2017 15:26:57 GMT -5
That's the only way it does know it. If you don't touch that sense of I am you will simply be abiding in being. Conscious of Consciousness. It's a real place that anyone can go to in this very moment to check out for themselves. And see if what I am saying is true or not. Most won't though... The snail, which has no sense of separate self, doesn't sense 'I am', it's more subtle that that, it's not a sensory experience. For us self-conscious and self-reflective humans the sense of 'I am' can be sensed, but it's because we are self-conscious/reflective. In the abidance of what we are, we are more like the snail again. To put it another way, sensing I am requires a witness construct. It's that construct that is ultimately surrendered, so without that construct, there's no 'sense' of I am. I would still agree that the absolute 'knows' I am but the word 'know' is a little deceptive because it implies a bit of separation, it implies one thing knows another thing. They are closer than that..almost as if the 'I am' appears in the absolute, so the absolute has no way of NOT knowing it. I think this adds to the confusion of this subject...it's true that the absolute knows I am, but if it is being sensed, that's actually the false witness construct coming into play. That's consciousness coming into play. Is that because the witness into which observer and observed collapses, isn't a construct? |
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