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Post by justlikeyou on Jul 5, 2013 18:51:25 GMT -5
That's my point. When we "insist" or "persist" on breaking through anothers defenses to make our point when that mind is clearly closed, that is where we are in danger of straying into egoic motivation. Sure but that's something for you to recognize for yourself and not a new agenda to bring to the table to break through to others...ironically. It is ironic isn't it. Point taken. Thank you.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2013 19:59:43 GMT -5
Perhaps tzu is not pretending, perhaps there's just the unconscious tendency to believe his projections are real. Axshulee, projections are unconscious 'by definition'. Then how can tzu as Laughter says, pretend to be conscious of them? If they manifest are they not seen?
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Post by enigma on Jul 5, 2013 20:40:27 GMT -5
Projection refers a valid psychological process. When a projection is accurately pointed out, the projector will invariably see that as a projection, since he has already projected it. The fact that it quickly degenerates into rubber/glue doesn't imply everybody is in on the projection. And you base that on his characterization of how his own voice sounds to him? Uhh, you get nothing from being in someone's physical presence and carrying on a conversation as opposed to typing words on a page? clickety-clack? By not being able to see one's expressions as we talk and express ourselves, are you trying to tell us that we get nothing extra from that physical presence? I didn't say anything about that. Silver said: "Tzu said afterwards his voice is more like his combatant in the film - a decidedly laid back Southern accent -" Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/2855/mental-acrobatics?page=10#ixzz2YE1Af4kDIsn't that Tzu saying how his own voice sounds to him?
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Post by enigma on Jul 5, 2013 20:46:33 GMT -5
I'm not telling you that you shouldn't speak your truth in any given moment. God forbid! I am speaking about what comes after that initial speaking. Is there agreement or denial? Are your words accepted or rejected? Are they appreciated or turned into a verbal bat to club you over the head with? If openness is there, awesome, full speed ahead. But if the mind of the other is clearly closed what good is served other than to create a strengthened resistance? There's no hard and fast rules. While getting a message across it's helpful for the other person to be at least somewhat receptive. In the context of resistance and letting go of resistance, most won't even consider doing so until it exceeds their comfort zone. All of the absurd drama here isn't some sort of malfunction. Some people really do need that in their own special way. Which is not to say that getting people to back further into a corner is a strategy but simply to say that it happens and it's not a mistake. Precisely the way I see it.
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Post by silver on Jul 5, 2013 20:53:24 GMT -5
Uhh, you get nothing from being in someone's physical presence and carrying on a conversation as opposed to typing words on a page? clickety-clack? By not being able to see one's expressions as we talk and express ourselves, are you trying to tell us that we get nothing extra from that physical presence? I didn't say anything about that. Silver said: "Tzu said afterwards his voice is more like his combatant in the film - a decidedly laid back Southern accent -" Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/2855/mental-acrobatics?page=10#ixzz2YE1Af4kDIsn't that Tzu saying how his own voice sounds to him? I don't think he could knowingly lie about his own voice and feel as though he could get away with it. You are not making a bit of sense. You don't trust him enough to be honest about the sound of his own voice? What does that have to do with anything of import?
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Post by enigma on Jul 5, 2013 21:07:48 GMT -5
We've been over this before, and you and Tzu' didn't like the answer one bit. I don't see a battle. I don't see a war. I don't see sides. There is no battlefield here with me. Even when I step over into Tzu's dojo, the only weapon I carry is wryness. But this is the 4th time you have diverted the question in front of you: do you see Tzu's interactions with those he interacts with as generally peaceful or not? Forget about E', my question is about Tzu. No, I only see him disagreeing. It's words on a page. Do 'we' really know if he's all worked up over this? That would be a sign of a less than peaceful attitude. I don't see him being particularly worked up, tbh.. How we view peeps deeper emotions and motivations and intentions depends almost entirely on whether or not we agree with them. ![8D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/insane.png)
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Post by enigma on Jul 5, 2013 21:10:43 GMT -5
Right, the person can't be right either. Hehe. What I've encountered in the year+ I've been hangin' 'round here is the conclusion that the person has exactly 0, null, zip, nada, zilch and void as far as the capacity to be honest is concerned. If you refer to self honesty, I agree.
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Post by silver on Jul 5, 2013 21:13:06 GMT -5
No, I only see him disagreeing. It's words on a page. Do 'we' really know if he's all worked up over this? That would be a sign of a less than peaceful attitude. I don't see him being particularly worked up, tbh.. How we view peeps deeper emotions and motivations and intentions depends almost entirely on whether or not we agree with them. ![8D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/insane.png) Hey, B! Where' you put the can of Raid? One of them bugs is out here - again! Yikes!
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Post by enigma on Jul 5, 2013 21:20:34 GMT -5
There's no hard and fast rules. While getting a message across it's helpful for the other person to be at least somewhat receptive. In the context of resistance and letting go of resistance, most won't even consider doing so until it exceeds their comfort zone. All of the absurd drama here isn't some sort of malfunction. Some people really do need that in their own special way. Which is not to say that getting people to back further into a corner is a strategy but simply to say that it happens and it's not a mistake. Fair enough overall, however, I wouldn't go so far as to say there are absolutely no rules. I was a cop for 8 years. I've dealt with all kinds. When it comes to the ego there are some definite "principles" in operation. Understanding them or not can help or hinder ones attempt to break through. That's all. There are definitely 'rules' to manipulating and controlling ego. I took it to mean there are no rules when it comes to getting a spearachual message across. IOW, ego getting excited doesn't mean nothing is happening, and keeping it calm isn't the top priority in this case.
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 5, 2013 21:32:51 GMT -5
Greetings.. Right, the person can't be right either. Hehe. What I've encountered in the year+ I've been hangin' 'round here is the conclusion that the person has exactly 0, null, zip, nada, zilch and void as far as the capacity to be honest is concerned. What i've noticed is that most 'conclusions' are structured by the desire to avoid seeing what is actually happening.. very few persons pretending to not be persons are interested in seeing what is actually happening.. Be well..
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Post by enigma on Jul 5, 2013 21:55:39 GMT -5
Axshulee, projections are unconscious 'by definition'. Then how can tzu as Laughter says, pretend to be conscious of them? If they manifest are they not seen? I don't know what he meant by that. If a projection 'manifests', it is believed to be a truth about another 'by definition'. A projection is never recognized as such by the projector when it is projected. To be conscious of a projection is to withdraw it and cease projecting. This is the value in recognizing them. They're like mushrooms that can only grow in the dark.
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Post by enigma on Jul 5, 2013 22:06:27 GMT -5
I don't think he could knowingly lie about his own voice and feel as though he could get away with it. You are not making a bit of sense. You don't trust him enough to be honest about the sound of his own voice? What does that have to do with anything of import? Why do you think he couldn't lie and why do you think he couldn't get away with it? What I don't trust is Tzu's ability to perceive anything accurately, which is to say consciously and without heavy filtering and bias. Ironically, this is his major complaint about others, which is what makes him the Prince of projection.
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Post by silver on Jul 5, 2013 22:15:14 GMT -5
I don't think he could knowingly lie about his own voice and feel as though he could get away with it. You are not making a bit of sense. You don't trust him enough to be honest about the sound of his own voice? What does that have to do with anything of import? Why do you think he couldn't lie and why do you think he couldn't get away with it? What I don't trust is Tzu's ability to perceive anything accurately, which is to say consciously and without heavy filtering and bias. Ironically, this is his major complaint about others, which is what makes him the Prince of projection. I'm not saying he couldn't lie and think he could get away with it, but in this context, it makes no dang sense to do so! You're being overly suspicious - is what I think. That would be my question to him, is if neither one of you trusts the other, then why continue to engage? Such as it is. ![(puke)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sick.png)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2013 22:23:02 GMT -5
Then how can tzu as Laughter says, pretend to be conscious of them? If they manifest are they not seen? I don't know what he meant by that. If a projection 'manifests', it is believed to be a truth about another 'by definition'. A projection is never recognized as such by the projector when it is projected. To be conscious of a projection is to withdraw it and cease projecting. This is the value in recognizing them. They're like mushrooms that can only grow in the dark. That's what I thought, like you said projections can be dropped if we want... The tell for the unconscious tendencies to project are often preceded by negative thoughts and/or feelings.
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 5, 2013 22:26:43 GMT -5
Greetings.. I don't think he could knowingly lie about his own voice and feel as though he could get away with it. You are not making a bit of sense. You don't trust him enough to be honest about the sound of his own voice? What does that have to do with anything of import? Why do you think he couldn't lie and why do you think he couldn't get away with it? What I don't trust is Tzu's ability to perceive anything accurately, which is to say consciously and without heavy filtering and bias. Ironically, this is his major complaint about others, which is what makes him the Prince of projection. LOL.. you will create the illusions that serve your beliefs.. You have not, yet, demonstrated the ability to see anything clearly, including your own self-deceptions.. you cannot just look and see, you always look and see your beliefs.. you create illusions about 'Tzu', because you want to be 'right'.. all 'Tzu' asks is for people to see clearly, it is 'you' that is telling people what they should see with word-games, telling people what "truth" is.. i'm not telling anyone what 'truth' is, but i can easily identify what "truth" is not.. "oneness" is not 'truth', it IS an idea, a belief, a description.. and, you are so attached to your beliefs that that you disregard clarity.. Be well..
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