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Post by enigma on Jul 5, 2013 14:12:00 GMT -5
If my content is that then the principle applies. I can see how you might see the content being only that, but it's not. "To thine own self be true". If I see Tzu' lying to himself and it's really easy to point it out with the words on a page ( like here), I'll do it. Don't mistake holding another to the high standard of honesty with a conceptual quibble -- that's a mistake that Tzu' makes almost all the time btw. Apologies for the silintrusion, but I don't see where those selected posts are any indication of Tzu's lyin' to himself. 'all the time'? Isn't that eggsageration to try n strengthen your own argument? The posts in question referenced Tzu's words "carrying your battle ground around with you", which by all indications is precisely what Tzu does. Do you understand how that relates to the idea of Tzu lying to himself?
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Post by silver on Jul 5, 2013 14:16:20 GMT -5
Well...isn't the word projection one of rubber-glue origins? I think back on yesterday - literally - after Jly's fine video production of Tzu v Enigma and how Tzu said afterwards his voice is more like his combatant in the film - a decidedly laid back Southern accent - and here, all this time, I'd been reading his posts with a voice - entirely imagined of course, not unlike some tough wrestling dude, fully capable of projecting that voice....I think his words would be taken differently - totally - if we could hear his real voice - I think that's absolutely true of everyone, naturally...Far more is lost in the translation without the body language and inflections/tone of voice. Even I question myself when I consistently find myself agreeing with stuff he says (same w/Andrew) and not so much with the ones who disagree with him/them. If you did a word cloud on his content "BELIEF" would be in the middle of it and by far and away the anchor -- like I said, he sees the discussion here as one big argument over concepts. To say that this misses the point about this board is such an understatement as to miss the point. As far as reaching out to him personally, ask him what he thinks of me personally or how he sees how I see him personally. To say that you'd likely be surprised is yet another understatement. Do you see me interacting with everyone here exactly the same way? Tzu' likes to fight, so it's what I give'em ... ... he doesn't really have an ear for much else. These word tussles are too funny. I picture it in my mind like male-only minuet-dancing and during the pauses, well, you know... Um, I don't consider the word 'fight' to be the best fit here, I simply think he disagrees - which isn't a fight, necessarily. As fur as projection goes, I stand by my earlier claim that it's a glue-rubber thingy.
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Post by enigma on Jul 5, 2013 14:21:18 GMT -5
It was one example of a clear projection. You either sees it or ya' don't. ... what, you don't find Tzu to be confrontational? How many nice, friendly, breezy, casual chats have you seen him have? Well...isn't the word projection one of rubber-glue origins? Projection refers a valid psychological process. When a projection is accurately pointed out, the projector will invariably see that as a projection, since he has already projected it. The fact that it quickly degenerates into rubber/glue doesn't imply everybody is in on the projection. And you base that on his characterization of how his own voice sounds to him?
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Post by silver on Jul 5, 2013 14:24:16 GMT -5
Well...isn't the word projection one of rubber-glue origins? Projection refers a valid psychological process. When a projection is accurately pointed out, the projector will invariably see that as a projection, since he has already projected it. The fact that it quickly degenerates into rubber/glue doesn't imply everybody is in on the projection. And you base that on his characterization of how his own voice sounds to him? Uhh, you get nothing from being in someone's physical presence and carrying on a conversation as opposed to typing words on a page? clickety-clack? By not being able to see one's expressions as we talk and express ourselves, are you trying to tell us that we get nothing extra from that physical presence? Btw - I said nothing about 'how his own voice sounds to him.' I have no idea why you said that.
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Post by silver on Jul 5, 2013 14:45:47 GMT -5
Apologies for the silintrusion, but I don't see where those selected posts are any indication of Tzu's lyin' to himself. 'all the time'? Isn't that eggsageration to try n strengthen your own argument? The posts in question referenced Tzu's words "carrying your battle ground around with you", which by all indications is precisely what Tzu does. Do you understand how that relates to the idea of Tzu lying to himself? Quite a bit has been said about resistance here on this forum. In my estimation, you most certainly do carry your battle ground around with - and I think that when a 'battle' has been ongoing for such a long while, all are guilty.
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Post by silence on Jul 5, 2013 14:47:18 GMT -5
Greetings.. Although not any means of certainty, a good indication of someone repeating beliefs is the inflexibility with the language they use. In your case its especially ironic as you carry around your briefcase of beliefs about everyone elses beliefs. Hey.. nice to see ya.. how's it going this Independence Day, gonna watch fireworks tonight? Ahh, language.. a fabulous tool for expressing and communicating what it is that we understand.. but no, by my own stated understanding of 'belief', i am not 'attached' to other people's beliefs, actually i am hopeful that all beliefs can be set aside for an interval sufficient to actually see/experience what is really happening.. are you interested in that possibility? Be well.. But you're not in the least bit hopeful. There's virtually no willingness on your end to accept when people are telling you they're reporting their experience in the exact same way you claim to be. What you seem to be hopeful for is that people will report their experience in the shape and form that matches your expectations.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jul 5, 2013 15:07:13 GMT -5
Are you not trying to convince Tzu of the errors of his ways? Are you not trying to rid him of his wrong view of things? If my content is that then the principle applies. I can see how you might see the content being only that, but it's not. "To thine own self be true". If I see Tzu' lying to himself and it's really easy to point it out with the words on a page ( like here), I'll do it. Don't mistake holding another to the high standard of honesty with a conceptual quibble -- that's a mistake that Tzu' makes almost all the time btw. I'm not telling you that you shouldn't speak your truth in any given moment. God forbid! I am speaking about what comes after that initial speaking. Is there agreement or denial? Are your words accepted or rejected? Are they appreciated or turned into a verbal bat to club you over the head with? If openness is there, awesome, full speed ahead. But if the mind of the other is clearly closed what good is served other than to create a strengthened resistance?
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Post by silence on Jul 5, 2013 15:16:11 GMT -5
If my content is that then the principle applies. I can see how you might see the content being only that, but it's not. "To thine own self be true". If I see Tzu' lying to himself and it's really easy to point it out with the words on a page ( like here), I'll do it. Don't mistake holding another to the high standard of honesty with a conceptual quibble -- that's a mistake that Tzu' makes almost all the time btw. I'm not telling you that you shouldn't speak your truth in any given moment. God forbid! I am speaking about what comes after that initial speaking. Is there agreement or denial? Are your words accepted or rejected? Are they appreciated or turned into a verbal bat to club you over the head with? If openness is there, awesome, full speed ahead. But if the mind of the other is clearly closed what good is served other than to create a strengthened resistance? There's no hard and fast rules. While getting a message across it's helpful for the other person to be at least somewhat receptive. In the context of resistance and letting go of resistance, most won't even consider doing so until it exceeds their comfort zone. All of the absurd drama here isn't some sort of malfunction. Some people really do need that in their own special way. Which is not to say that getting people to back further into a corner is a strategy but simply to say that it happens and it's not a mistake.
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Post by laughter on Jul 5, 2013 15:30:43 GMT -5
If my content is that then the principle applies. I can see how you might see the content being only that, but it's not. "To thine own self be true". If I see Tzu' lying to himself and it's really easy to point it out with the words on a page ( like here), I'll do it. Don't mistake holding another to the high standard of honesty with a conceptual quibble -- that's a mistake that Tzu' makes almost all the time btw. I'm not telling you that you shouldn't speak your truth in any given moment. God forbid! I am speaking about what comes after that initial speaking. Is there agreement or denial? Are your words accepted or rejected? Are they appreciated or turned into a verbal bat to club you over the head with? If openness is there, awesome, full speed ahead. But if the mind of the other is clearly closed what good is served other than to create a strengthened resistance? Tzu' is a hard case but I wouldn't say his mind is completely closed -- he's said himself that he's open to "new understandings of 'Mind'". Not every conversation is gonna be all nicey-nice, and for all you know he benefits from some eye contact ... that plenty are shy to give'em. If he wants to talk, he wants to talk. Words get typed and words get read JLU. I wouldn't make much more of it than that.
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Post by laughter on Jul 5, 2013 15:33:59 GMT -5
The posts in question referenced Tzu's words "carrying your battle ground around with you", which by all indications is precisely what Tzu does. Do you understand how that relates to the idea of Tzu lying to himself? Quite a bit has been said about resistance here on this forum. In my estimation, you most certainly do carry your battle ground around with - and I think that when a 'battle' has been ongoing for such a long while, all are guilty. E's question wasn't about E, it was about Tzu'. Why are you making it about E'?
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Post by silver on Jul 5, 2013 15:37:03 GMT -5
Quite a bit has been said about resistance here on this forum. In my estimation, you most certainly do carry your battle ground around with - and I think that when a 'battle' has been ongoing for such a long while, all are guilty. E's question wasn't about E, it was about Tzu'. Why are you making it about E'? I'm saying everyone has a part in this bit about carrying the battle field around. Isn't it clear no one is choosing to leave?
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Post by silver on Jul 5, 2013 15:39:19 GMT -5
I'm not telling you that you shouldn't speak your truth in any given moment. God forbid! I am speaking about what comes after that initial speaking. Is there agreement or denial? Are your words accepted or rejected? Are they appreciated or turned into a verbal bat to club you over the head with? If openness is there, awesome, full speed ahead. But if the mind of the other is clearly closed what good is served other than to create a strengthened resistance? Tzu' is a hard case but I wouldn't say his mind is completely closed -- he's said himself that he's open to "new understandings of 'Mind'". Not every conversation is gonna be all nicey-nice, and for all you know he benefits from some eye contact ... that plenty are shy to give'em. If he wants to talk, he wants to talk. Words get typed and words get read JLU. I wouldn't make much more of it than that. I don't think it's wise to trust one's own judgment, especially when there's a sizeable dispute going on, also.
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Post by laughter on Jul 5, 2013 15:42:01 GMT -5
E's question wasn't about E, it was about Tzu'. Why are you making it about E'? I'm saying everyone has a part in this bit about carrying the battle field around. Isn't it clear no one is choosing to leave? We've been over this before, and you and Tzu' didn't like the answer one bit. I don't see a battle. I don't see a war. I don't see sides. There is no battlefield here with me. Even when I step over into Tzu's dojo, the only weapon I carry is wryness. But this is the 4th time you have diverted the question in front of you: do you see Tzu's interactions with those he interacts with as generally peaceful or not? Forget about E', my question is about Tzu.
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Post by laughter on Jul 5, 2013 15:44:05 GMT -5
Tzu' is a hard case but I wouldn't say his mind is completely closed -- he's said himself that he's open to "new understandings of 'Mind'". Not every conversation is gonna be all nicey-nice, and for all you know he benefits from some eye contact ... that plenty are shy to give'em. If he wants to talk, he wants to talk. Words get typed and words get read JLU. I wouldn't make much more of it than that. I don't think it's wise to trust one's own judgment, especially when there's a sizeable dispute going on, also. You're going to advocate for wisdom now?
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Post by silver on Jul 5, 2013 15:44:10 GMT -5
I'm saying everyone has a part in this bit about carrying the battle field around. Isn't it clear no one is choosing to leave? We've been over this before, and you and Tzu' didn't like the answer one bit. I don't see a battle. I don't see a war. I don't see sides. There is no battlefield here with me. Even when I step over into Tzu's dojo, the only weapon I carry is wryness. But this is the 4th time you have diverted the question in front of you: do you see Tzu's interactions with those he interacts with as generally peaceful or not? Forget about E', my question is about Tzu. No, I only see him disagreeing. It's words on a page. Do 'we' really know if he's all worked up over this? That would be a sign of a less than peaceful attitude. I don't see him being particularly worked up, tbh..
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