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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 9:23:41 GMT -5
Andrew, it's nothing worth spending any time on man ... just a noun, a label, a consensus. There was no Thursday 10,000 years ago. No big deal man, don't worry about it! Interesting response. I'm not worried, there is a relevant point here and I think it is worth spending time on. You are incorrect here by the way. It may NOT be just a noun, a label, a consenses, it MAY be more than that. Its not proven either way. The reason that you say that it is 'just a noun, a label, a consensus' is possibly because you believe that there really is something else other, prior, beyond. An 'ineffable'. E said it REALLY IS Thursday. I'm not saying it REALLY isn't. I'm suggesting that discovering the truth of the matter either way is gonna be tough. Maybe think of it as E giving you a push on the merry-go-round? TGIF!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 9:29:29 GMT -5
I'm trying my best to bridge the divide between your two expressions. I don't know yet that you see clearly what Enigma is pointing to. You both talk about dropping beliefs. Enigma is pointing at what remains when there are no beliefs left in the mind. His focus on no separation is a focus on the absence of the mind. It is the mind's function to separate what is not separate. LOL.. really good effort, too.. here's the thing.. IF there are NO beliefs, what remains is the pure observation, parts interacting as a whole.. there is no "absence of the mind", it is the medium of awareness for this present instant of existence.. a still and clear mind is the best 'we' have, In such a state, absent beliefs, pure observation, how can there be knowledge that 'there is no absence of the mind'? IOW, there is present happening, any knowledge of it is already beyond.
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Post by tzujanli on Jun 14, 2013 9:52:35 GMT -5
Greetings.. LOL.. really good effort, too.. here's the thing.. IF there are NO beliefs, what remains is the pure observation, parts interacting as a whole.. there is no "absence of the mind", it is the medium of awareness for this present instant of existence.. a still and clear mind is the best 'we' have, In such a state, absent beliefs, pure observation, how can there be knowledge that 'there is no absence of the mind'? IOW, there is present happening, any knowledge of it is already beyond. We are bound by a common medium through which awareness and understanding are possible, where information is organized into meaningful cause for living.. i understand this common medium as 'mind'.. in its 'stillness' what 'is' is observable without the distortion of beliefs and imaginations.. but, in order to communicate the mind will activate and become subject to its own influences.. fixating on a word/concept relationship like 'oneness', is not the 'pointer' the believer thinks it is.. paying attention with a still and clear mind, then reporting what was seen/experienced clearly, is the information that counsels common understanding and a sense of the potential 'greater whole'.. Yes, 'knowledge', knowing, the fixed idea that one is possessed of the 'truth' about what is actually happening, is no longer a fluid dynamic expression of presence.. Be well..
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Post by andrew on Jun 14, 2013 9:59:35 GMT -5
Interesting response. I'm not worried, there is a relevant point here and I think it is worth spending time on. You are incorrect here by the way. It may NOT be just a noun, a label, a consenses, it MAY be more than that. Its not proven either way. The reason that you say that it is 'just a noun, a label, a consensus' is possibly because you believe that there really is something else other, prior, beyond. An 'ineffable'. E said it REALLY IS Thursday. I'm not saying it REALLY isn't. I'm suggesting that discovering the truth of the matter either way is gonna be tough. Maybe think of it as E giving you a push on the merry-go-round? TGIF! Could be. I think he thinks it 'really is' the day he thinks it is though.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 10:43:11 GMT -5
Maybe think of it as E giving you a push on the merry-go-round? TGIF! Could be. I think he thinks it 'really is' the day he thinks it is though. Somehow methinks he's okay with Thursday just being imagination. ('specially now cuz it's yesterday! )
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Post by andrew on Jun 14, 2013 10:53:51 GMT -5
Could be. I think he thinks it 'really is' the day he thinks it is though. Somehow methinks he's okay with Thursday just being imagination. ('specially now cuz it's yesterday! ) I can imagine him saying that but it still misses the point. Its not necessarily true that its imagination. It might be imaginary or it might not be. It might 'really be' what day E thinks it is, or it might not be. Its unknown (unless its not).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 10:56:16 GMT -5
Greetings.. In such a state, absent beliefs, pure observation, how can there be knowledge that 'there is no absence of the mind'? IOW, there is present happening, any knowledge of it is already beyond. We are bound by a common medium through which awareness and understanding are possible, where information is organized into meaningful cause for living.. i understand this common medium as 'mind'.. in its 'stillness' what 'is' is observable without the distortion of beliefs and imaginations.. but, in order to communicate the mind will activate and become subject to its own influences.. fixating on a word/concept relationship like 'oneness', is not the 'pointer' the believer thinks it is.. paying attention with a still and clear mind, then reporting what was seen/experienced clearly, is the information that counsels common understanding and a sense of the potential 'greater whole'.. Yes, 'knowledge', knowing, the fixed idea that one is possessed of the 'truth' about what is actually happening, is no longer a fluid dynamic expression of presence.. Be well.. I get what you're saying about the concept of Oneness. I don't especially see that happening either. But I'm open to the possibility that I'm missing something. Perhaps it's just a gerbil wheel. Perhaps not. As I understand it, if I do anything with the concept of Oneness, it's a gerbil wheel. If I truly understand (aka realization) 'stillness,' then the concept of Oneness is moot, and is not a gerbil wheel. In any case, so far the "fluid dynamic expression of presence," using mind, only attaches a question mark to Oneness. In other words, how can you be certain the fluid dynamic expression of presence isn't appropriately tagged with Oneness by another mind unfettered by beliefs and purely observing?
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Post by Beingist on Jun 14, 2013 11:01:17 GMT -5
Somehow methinks he's okay with Thursday just being imagination. ('specially now cuz it's yesterday! ) I can imagine him saying that but it still misses the point. Its not necessarily true that its imagination. It might be imaginary or it might not be. It might 'really be' what day E thinks it is, or it might not be. Its unknown (unless its not). By all appearances, A, you've gone to great lengths to make sure you ain't attached to NUTHIN' (not even to not being attached to anything).
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Post by tzujanli on Jun 14, 2013 11:02:30 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. We are bound by a common medium through which awareness and understanding are possible, where information is organized into meaningful cause for living.. i understand this common medium as 'mind'.. in its 'stillness' what 'is' is observable without the distortion of beliefs and imaginations.. but, in order to communicate the mind will activate and become subject to its own influences.. fixating on a word/concept relationship like 'oneness', is not the 'pointer' the believer thinks it is.. paying attention with a still and clear mind, then reporting what was seen/experienced clearly, is the information that counsels common understanding and a sense of the potential 'greater whole'.. Yes, 'knowledge', knowing, the fixed idea that one is possessed of the 'truth' about what is actually happening, is no longer a fluid dynamic expression of presence.. Be well.. I get what you're saying about the concept of Oneness. I don't especially see that happening either. But I'm open to the possibility that I'm missing something. Perhaps it's just a gerbil wheel. Perhaps not. As I understand it, if I do anything with the concept of Oneness, it's a gerbil wheel. If I truly understand (aka realization) 'stillness,' then the concept of Oneness is moot, and is not a gerbil wheel. In any case, so far the "fluid dynamic expression of presence," using mind, only attaches a question mark to Oneness. In other words, how can you be certain the fluid dynamic expression of presence isn't appropriately tagged with Oneness by another mind unfettered by beliefs and purely observing? I don't know that.. i understand the disconnect with what is actually happening when that word/belief is held as 'true'.. Be well..
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 11:10:03 GMT -5
Somehow methinks he's okay with Thursday just being imagination. ('specially now cuz it's yesterday! ) I can imagine him saying that but it still misses the point. Its not necessarily true that its imagination. It might be imaginary or it might not be. It might 'really be' what day E thinks it is, or it might not be. Its unknown (unless its not). One of the values of a polemic is that it helps clarify the issues at hand. "It is all imagination" is a polemic. Does that statement include "unless it's not" or doesn't it? Literally, no it doesn't. But figuratively, yes it does. It is like saying emptiness is form. It includes itself. I'm understanding the greasy spot more and more. It's getting really teeny.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 11:13:04 GMT -5
Greetings.. I get what you're saying about the concept of Oneness. I don't especially see that happening either. But I'm open to the possibility that I'm missing something. Perhaps it's just a gerbil wheel. Perhaps not. As I understand it, if I do anything with the concept of Oneness, it's a gerbil wheel. If I truly understand (aka realization) 'stillness,' then the concept of Oneness is moot, and is not a gerbil wheel. In any case, so far the "fluid dynamic expression of presence," using mind, only attaches a question mark to Oneness. In other words, how can you be certain the fluid dynamic expression of presence isn't appropriately tagged with Oneness by another mind unfettered by beliefs and purely observing? I don't know that.. i understand the disconnect with what is actually happening when that word/belief is held as 'true'.. Be well.. But isn't what is actually happening for you that it is 'false'? You seem to be arguing that it can not be true. It is a level of knowledge that I also don't know about.
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Post by andrew on Jun 14, 2013 11:38:26 GMT -5
I can imagine him saying that but it still misses the point. Its not necessarily true that its imagination. It might be imaginary or it might not be. It might 'really be' what day E thinks it is, or it might not be. Its unknown (unless its not). By all appearances, A, you've gone to great lengths to make sure you ain't attached to NUTHIN' (not even to not being attached to anything). Hmmm I still have attachments playing out, but my attachments have been released (and continue to be) just through living basically. Failure is always good for releasing attachment and there was a period of my life where I experienced a lot of failure!
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Post by Beingist on Jun 14, 2013 11:42:09 GMT -5
By all appearances, A, you've gone to great lengths to make sure you ain't attached to NUTHIN' (not even to not being attached to anything). Hmmm I still have attachments playing out, but my attachments have been released (and continue to be) just through living basically. Failure is always good for releasing attachment and there was a period of my life where I experienced a lot of failure! Indeed, signs of a humble nature, here. But, the point was that it seems that ultimate non-attachment is your primary goal. Is that a fair assessment?
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Post by andrew on Jun 14, 2013 12:01:28 GMT -5
I can imagine him saying that but it still misses the point. Its not necessarily true that its imagination. It might be imaginary or it might not be. It might 'really be' what day E thinks it is, or it might not be. Its unknown (unless its not). One of the values of a polemic is that it helps clarify the issues at hand. "It is all imagination" is a polemic. Does that statement include "unless it's not" or doesn't it? Literally, no it doesn't. But figuratively, yes it does. It is like saying emptiness is form. It includes itself. I'm understanding the greasy spot more and more. It's getting really teeny. The 'g. spot' is just a way of giving ourselves a bit of temporary relief hehe. When we are open to the potential truth/falsity of ever idea, it makes no sense to collapse ideas down, coz the 'g. spot' is just another potentially true/false idea. Like I said, that doesn't mean a bit of quiet meditation isn't good though.
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Post by andrew on Jun 14, 2013 12:06:34 GMT -5
Hmmm I still have attachments playing out, but my attachments have been released (and continue to be) just through living basically. Failure is always good for releasing attachment and there was a period of my life where I experienced a lot of failure! Indeed, signs of a humble nature, here. But, the point was that it seems that ultimate non-attachment is your primary goal. Is that a fair assessment? I have no interest in 'ultimate non-attachment' JUST for me. My interest is in peace, harmony and joy on a wide scale. On the other hand, that doesn't mean that I am trying to religiously convert people to anything. I just do what feels right.
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