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Post by andrew on Jun 12, 2013 15:35:55 GMT -5
The great irony is that 'nothing is ultimately true' is TMT. You turned a simple realization into a mental conclusion to give yourself some temporary and artificial relief from mind being in the driver's seat. I am engaging you at the level of TMT because that is the level at which you function at. The only reason you create a greasy spot, and the only reason you focus on collapsing ideas down, is because you are constantly engaged in TMT. In not-knowing there is no reason to collapse ideas. Sure a bit of quiet meditation might be appropriate sometimes, but there is no need to create the idea of some kind of 'greasy spot' in order to experience some temporary relief. If I may, Andrew, would you at all care to define 'mind' for me? (just trying to grasp what you're saying, here). Rather than get into a full on discussion about 'mind', I will rephrase what I said....''some temporary and artificial relief from believing in the truth (or even falsity) of ideas''. Now E, you can turn round and say again 'that's absurd...I have seen that no idea is ultimately true'....but there is STILL a full on belief in there.
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Post by andrew on Jun 12, 2013 15:42:34 GMT -5
I don't agree that your last sentence there necessarily follows. It's actually pointing out that there are limits of knowing and that it's probably best to accept not-knowing. That's how I read it anyhoo. To know something presupposes an absolute conceptual truth; some knowledge about something that has a solid foundation beyond the imaginary movements of mind. There is no such truth, and there is nothing to know. The idea that there is nothing to know might imply that no realization is needed, but realization is not the realization of some conceptual knowledge. It's basically the realization of what is NOT so, which not a gain of knowledge but rather a loss. Its not necessarily true that there is nothing to know. There might well be. You do speak in terms of absolute truths, you have just found a clever way to disguise that, probably even from yourself.
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Post by enigma on Jun 12, 2013 16:10:11 GMT -5
Geez, it's just a little silliness. Heyeah, repeated like 20 billion times (It may have been funny the first couple of times you said it like before I even showed up here - back in naayon to 1852)
It's not a joke. Everything you think you know collapses. I just get silly too. Are we clear now?
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Post by enigma on Jun 12, 2013 16:22:33 GMT -5
Still itches, huh? Shocker. I have no interest and inclination to stand idiocy gladly on the forum at the moment. Probably best for both of us if you talk to people that don't think you are an idiot. Them thar's banning words!
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Post by Beingist on Jun 12, 2013 16:31:54 GMT -5
If I may, Andrew, would you at all care to define 'mind' for me? (just trying to grasp what you're saying, here). Rather than get into a full on discussion about 'mind', I will rephrase what I said....''some temporary and artificial relief from believing in the truth (or even falsity) of ideas''. Now E, you can turn round and say again 'that's absurd...I have seen that no idea is ultimately true'....but there is STILL a full on belief in there. K, A, thanks for the clarification. I'll remain on any further discussion you have with E.
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Post by enigma on Jun 12, 2013 17:01:59 GMT -5
Greetings.. We are One.. We are many.. We are separate.. We are seamlessly whole.. There is a common self-evident awareness in the concepts stated above, followed by the concept, idea, belief.. there is conflict, contradiction, and attachment in the concepts and beliefs.. To look upon the world with innocence, still the mind.. silence the internal voice that tells you what your parents, clergy, teachers, mentors, friends, peers, and the books, and movies, and communication media want you to hear and believe.. silence the internal voice that tries to tell you what you see, what you should believe.. In the stillness and silence is a new innocence, a fresh perspective and vision.. We are.. together, we can explore that 'are-ness' for what it 'is', rather than what we think it is, rather than what we were conditioned to believe it is, but.. to do that, we need to let go of the beliefs and knowings, so that we are all seeing with the same eyes..Be well.. We've tried, but clearly you are not going to let go of yours.
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Post by enigma on Jun 12, 2013 17:07:59 GMT -5
Greetings.. Why would you believe those ideas? Those are beliefs about what 'is'.. and what 'is' is not derived by beliefs in duality or nonduality.. you're getting attached to the beliefs confusion, where everybody has 'their own' beliefs and want their own beliefs to be 'the right' beliefs, but.. some other people's beliefs seem okay, too, and that's confusing when you want your beliefs to 'the right beliefs'.. don't get stuck in beliefs, just pay attention to what is actually happening and you will see beliefs for the illusions that they are.. for example: I know people that believe that all is one (nonduality), but.. contrary to your belief, " no one can keep secrets from them", i ask questions like "what is the subject of the picture immediately to my right", which is not even a secret, and.. they can't answer. you express the 'belief' that "no one can keep secrets from them", but that's not what actually is happening. it's your belief.. keeping a clear awareness about the claims people make, and the ways people use language to create illusions that entice beliefs, are useful ways to understand our relationships with the Life we are living and the existence we are living in.. the example i use is simple and the simplicity annoys people that want to create illusions with language and word-games, but.. the first rule of actuality, is being able to back-up claims without resorting to unverifiable conditions.. actuality is not conditional. Be well.. What I write about in here comes from direct experience. Faith and belief can be put in the garbage where it belongs when you have done enough personal clearing to develop conscious contact and step into the knowing. You and Tzuth both claim direct experience, and yet you experience different stuff. Apparently, experience isn't reliable.
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Post by silver on Jun 12, 2013 17:08:20 GMT -5
Heyeah, repeated like 20 billion times (It may have been funny the first couple of times you said it like before I even showed up here - back in naayon to 1852)
It's not a joke. Everything you think you know collapses. I just get silly too. Are we clear now? fine whatever
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Post by tzujanli on Jun 12, 2013 18:53:33 GMT -5
Greetings.. You and Tzuth both claim direct experience, and yet you experience different stuff. Apparently, experience isn't reliable. Apples and oranges, you misrepresent people's messages again.. i state that direct experience is based on clarity, and reveals 'what is actually happening'.. you and Ish need labels and beliefs to weave illusions about what you think is true/truth.. there is a fundamental difference, i'm interested in seeing/experiencing clearly, and.. you are interested in having people believe you know the 'truth'.. what you 'know' is that you believe "oneness is truth", and you project that belief onto your interactions in this forum.. Experience is very reliable.. you simply see it through the distorted perspective of beliefs and attachments.. just let them go, you'll be amazed, there is no longer the conflict between your beliefs in oneness/nonduality and what is actually happening.. Be well..
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Post by tzujanli on Jun 12, 2013 18:56:39 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. We are One.. We are many.. We are separate.. We are seamlessly whole.. There is a common self-evident awareness in the concepts stated above, followed by the concept, idea, belief.. there is conflict, contradiction, and attachment in the concepts and beliefs.. To look upon the world with innocence, still the mind.. silence the internal voice that tells you what your parents, clergy, teachers, mentors, friends, peers, and the books, and movies, and communication media want you to hear and believe.. silence the internal voice that tries to tell you what you see, what you should believe.. In the stillness and silence is a new innocence, a fresh perspective and vision.. We are.. together, we can explore that 'are-ness' for what it 'is', rather than what we think it is, rather than what we were conditioned to believe it is, but.. to do that, we need to let go of the beliefs and knowings, so that we are all seeing with the same eyes..Be well.. We've tried, but clearly you are not going to let go of yours. My friend, if you are still chanting the mantra of "oneness is truth", or "there is no separation".. you haven't even 'tried'.. Be well..
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Post by tzujanli on Jun 12, 2013 19:06:49 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Are you supposing/theorizing i do not take my own advice? I largely agree with your understanding of the mind's distortion functions, and.. it is my experience that it is not nearly as difficult as you portray to mitigate those distortion functions.. 'feeling' resonance is especially revealing, and once understood it transcends the mind's distortion functions as a barometer of what is actually happening.. i am fairly diligent in accounting for attachments while recalling and 'thinking about' what 'is'.. sometimes, it's easy to be influenced by beliefs we 'think' are true, or to deny experiences we haven't personally verified.. Be well.. If you did take your own advice then you would know that there is no-one there, who can let go.Sorry Wren, that's 'your' belief.. the belief that the 'no-one' who is not there keeps telling the others that the 'no-one' claims isn't there, that they should know that there is no-one there.. i'm hopeful you will see the deep and humorous irony in your post.. Be well..
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Post by onehandclapping on Jun 12, 2013 20:18:01 GMT -5
Greetings.. We've tried, but clearly you are not going to let go of yours. My friend, if you are still chanting the mantra of "oneness is truth", or "there is no separation".. you haven't even 'tried'.. Be well.. HAHAHAHAHA!!! Man you are hilarious!!! Cause you don't chant ANY mantra's on here!!! BBBAAAAAHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!!! You could be a verse to the song "Ironic" had Alanis wrote it now that she's into non-duality. "An old man, thought he was awake.... thought everyone had an unconscious take (He'd try to) preach and preach about ev-ver-ry-thing Unaware, it was his ego speaking Isn't it ironic.... Don't ya think?"
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Post by enigma on Jun 12, 2013 20:28:10 GMT -5
Support? Do you feel under some sort of attack? If I could commit the sin of projection here for a sec hehehe Probably not, but support always seems to be welcome when one is defending a position... In the SilentBluenigma ramparts support seems to be so tacit that public acknowledge and gratitude are not needed lolI don't understand what any of you are defending, or why :-) I'm pretty sure it's complicated though If the story is that a belief support system is in place, then proper acknowledgement would likely be a required part of the clubhouse rules. You observe that this is not the case, and instead of questioning your story, you add to it with the notion that appropriate gratitude is assumed. lol What's the possibility that those three all share the same clarity, and simply talk about what they see? No support structure to maintain. lol
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2013 21:10:51 GMT -5
If I could commit the sin of projection here for a sec hehehe Probably not, but support always seems to be welcome when one is defending a position... In the SilentBluenigma ramparts support seems to be so tacit that public acknowledge and gratitude are not needed lolI don't understand what any of you are defending, or why :-) I'm pretty sure it's complicated though If the story is that a belief support system is in place, then proper acknowledgement would likely be a required part of the clubhouse rules. You observe that this is not the case, and instead of questioning your story, you add to it with the notion that appropriate gratitude is assumed. lol What's the possibility that those three all share the same clarity, and simply talk about what they see? No support structure to maintain. lol The possibility is good, but equally so that Silver, Andrew, Figless, And Tzu share the same clarity :-) Or maybe you all share an attachment to some ideas about ideas about ideas Who knows? One thing "seems" certain though, the first step toward figuring it out is a step toward somewhere that somebody might have to defend lol Or not. So I'll quietly retreat ;-)
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Post by enigma on Jun 12, 2013 21:16:06 GMT -5
Greetings.. Hi Top: My understanding is simple.. just let go of attachments like beliefs, even 'knowing'.. i experience clarity when i suspend the mind's 'thinking' processes.. i experience some challenges when intentionally recalling those direct experiences for the purposes of fitting them into my private mindscape's 'intentional' interaction with its environment.. this is when it is useful to have experience with 'feeling' energetic resonance, such that fitting experiences into the mindscape's 'understanding' is energetically coherent with what is actually happening.. that same sensitivity to energetic resonances also counsels the mind's adjustments and revisions to the mindscape and the understandings.. I don't understand/believe that i am different or have different abilities than others, i understand that others have the same capacity to suspend their thinking processes.. i hear many different 'perspectives', and when hearing those perspectives i 'see clearly' that they are influenced by people's beliefs/attachments.. and, i 'see clearly' that the conflicts between beliefs/attachments are a source of suffering in the human experience.. I suggest that what people think 'about' their direct experience, i.e.: Life happening as an interconnected functioning whole, but thought 'about' as 'oneness' excluding the obvious parts interacting.. that is a degree of separation from clarity..There's an open honest account of my understanding, i'm trusting you are sincere.. we'll see how others interact, too.. Be well.. My experience with the mind has shown me that suspending thinking isn't enough. There are filters still active when looking out in the world and what is seen "clearly" can still be heavily interpreted and susceptible to confirmation bias. Even if the mind being silent for a while (absent of thinking) when the mind becomes active again, it usually picks up right where it left off. Energetic resonance of the mind I have found is more a product of coherence between beliefs and interpretations. A thought or idea resonates and coheres to other pre-existing thoughts or ideas. It is in having to wrestle with cognitive dissonance that I have found the most advancement in my own thinking and perceptive processes. You advocate letting go of beliefs, attachment and knowing. How is the underlined not something you yourself could take your own advice on? I tacitly support that.
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