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Post by silence on Apr 3, 2013 16:05:28 GMT -5
Is it necessary for there to be a chooser to pose a question to yourself right now and look? I say obviously not if people are self inquiring to begin with and the truth is already that there is no chooser as Beingist suggests. Sounds like you're trying to make sense of something that I can't even make sense of, myself. I'm saying that you obviously have the capacity for self inquiry since you do it "perpetually". Yet when a question is posed to you to inquire about, the shields go up and a conclusion is made that there's no chooser. I'm saying that such a statement is irrelevant and nothing more than a distraction technique of mind. Additionally, anyone who is constantly inquiring within is not A-okay as figgy suggests. I don't mean to say you're mentally ill or anything. Only to say that such behavior is the result of a mind that is looking for something.
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Post by enigma on Apr 3, 2013 16:27:39 GMT -5
As I see it, the witness position is useful in noticing what is happening, which is what I mean by becoming conscious. However, noticing something like expectation just means that the expectations are conscious. It doesn't, by virtue of the noticing, make them stop. That requires noticing some other stuff about the validity of those expectations. So, I'm not suggesting that your own expectations didn't go away, but I am suggesting that it may have been because of something you noticed about the expectations, and not the noticing of the expectations themselves. You might be right ... I'm hesitant to say anything in general about the nature of expectation beyond what I've said already, but I will say that in witnessing any movement of thought without following it there seems a tendency to create detachment, what I've read described as "distance" or "space" between me and that movement ... perhaps this might be described as sort of erosion of identification. Yeah, it's the climbing out of the river onto the river bank (witness position) and that's always useful and sets us up for noticing all sorts of other stuff. From that position, it's hard to get caught up in identification with the thoughts and go spinning with them. So most of them just float on by.
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Post by Beingist on Apr 3, 2013 16:33:47 GMT -5
Sounds like you're trying to make sense of something that I can't even make sense of, myself. I'm saying that you obviously have the capacity for self inquiry since you do it "perpetually". Yet when a question is posed to you to inquire about, the shields go up and a conclusion is made that there's no chooser. I'm saying that such a statement is irrelevant and nothing more than a distraction technique of mind. Additionally, anyone who is constantly inquiring within is not A-okay as figgy suggests. I don't mean to say you're mentally ill or anything. Only to say that such behavior is the result of a mind that is looking for something. Well, I guess I was right-- a lot of assumptions. I wouldn't even know where to begin to address them all. Interesting that you see 'shields go up'. No idea where that's coming from. The 'looking' or 'inquiry' about which I speak is like nothing I've ever heard spoken about before, so I can understand how it might be misperceived as I discuss it here. It's more like 'staying in the sense I am', as per Niz. In my case such abidance is in the form of a question, though I haven't the foggiest idea why or how that is.
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Post by enigma on Apr 3, 2013 16:37:41 GMT -5
The spontaneous realization in Joe Blow is going to release the tension in his mind, bring him existential peace, but not necessarily change his personality, external behavior or bodily manifestation in the world. People might notice that he's "calmed down" or become more content, easier to be around, but that's about it. He may never talk about his insight or share it with anyone. He has no need to. Yes, your personality is always going to be unique and that's the way it's supposed to be. Which is why all the emulation of saints and teachers is completely missing the point. The only thing that's pretty much guaranteed is that the absence of an imaginary moderator filtering and distorting your personality will likely make you much more direct. That directness seems to be quite common, and also has it's ramifications.
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Post by enigma on Apr 3, 2013 16:41:19 GMT -5
I see. The only reason I mention it is to pose the question of whether perpetual inquiry can become a way of preventing letting go rather than fascilitating it. No choice, in any event. No chooser. 'No chooser' doesn't mean nothing can changed or chosen.
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Post by topology on Apr 3, 2013 16:42:04 GMT -5
Sounds like you're trying to make sense of something that I can't even make sense of, myself. I'm saying that you obviously have the capacity for self inquiry since you do it "perpetually". Yet when a question is posed to you to inquire about, the shields go up and a conclusion is made that there's no chooser. I'm saying that such a statement is irrelevant and nothing more than a distraction technique of mind. Additionally, anyone who is constantly inquiring within is not A-okay as figgy suggests. I don't mean to say you're mentally ill or anything. Only to say that such behavior is the result of a mind that is looking for something. +1 I've been rezzing with everything you've said for a while now. Inquiry is mental activity attempting to resolve a tension. It is not the mind at rest.
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Post by enigma on Apr 3, 2013 16:46:04 GMT -5
Is it necessary for there to be a chooser to pose a question to yourself right now and look? I say obviously not if people are self inquiring to begin with and the truth is already that there is no chooser as Beingist suggests. Sounds like you're trying to make sense of something that I can't even make sense of, myself. Seems to me that's why he's pointing it out to you. There's some potential clarity there about what it means to say there is no chooser.
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Post by Beingist on Apr 3, 2013 16:46:05 GMT -5
No choice, in any event. No chooser. 'No chooser' doesn't mean nothing can changed or chosen. Well, in any event, I have no choice, anymore. That's all I was trying to get across.
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Post by Beingist on Apr 3, 2013 16:47:53 GMT -5
I'm saying that you obviously have the capacity for self inquiry since you do it "perpetually". Yet when a question is posed to you to inquire about, the shields go up and a conclusion is made that there's no chooser. I'm saying that such a statement is irrelevant and nothing more than a distraction technique of mind. Additionally, anyone who is constantly inquiring within is not A-okay as figgy suggests. I don't mean to say you're mentally ill or anything. Only to say that such behavior is the result of a mind that is looking for something. +1 I've been rezzing with everything you've said for a while now. Inquiry is mental activity attempting to resolve a tension. It is not the mind at rest. Then what I'm talking about cannot be defined as inquiry. I retract completely my original sentiment.
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Post by Beingist on Apr 3, 2013 16:50:02 GMT -5
Sounds like you're trying to make sense of something that I can't even make sense of, myself. Seems to me that's why he's pointing it out to you. There's some potential clarity there about what it means to say there is no chooser. Then, I'll never say it again, because all it has done in this case is lead to confusion. I retract my earlier comment.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2013 17:27:46 GMT -5
Sounds like you're trying to make sense of something that I can't even make sense of, myself. I'm saying that you obviously have the capacity for self inquiry since you do it "perpetually". Yet when a question is posed to you to inquire about, the shields go up and a conclusion is made that there's no chooser. I'm saying that such a statement is irrelevant and nothing more than a distraction technique of mind. Additionally, anyone who is constantly inquiring within is not A-okay as figgy suggests. I don't mean to say you're mentally ill or anything. Only to say that such behavior is the result of a mind that is looking for something. What B said is this: Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/2721/self-inquiry?page=2#ixzz2PRPkgjmFIt sounded to me like what he was describing was just more of a sense of 'openess,' perhaps the presence of an ongoing sense of curiosity, not so much an actual self referential looking within to say, "Hmmm....what am I doing and thinking now, kind of thing".
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Post by enigma on Apr 3, 2013 17:37:55 GMT -5
'No chooser' doesn't mean nothing can changed or chosen. Well, in any event, I have no choice, anymore. That's all I was trying to get across. Then i don't know what you mean by that. Do you mean you're compelled to do or not do something? Obviously, we're all presented with choices and do, in fact, choose, so i'm just trying to be clear about what it means to have no choice.
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Post by Beingist on Apr 3, 2013 17:45:28 GMT -5
Well, in any event, I have no choice, anymore. That's all I was trying to get across. Then i don't know what you mean by that. Do you mean you're compelled to do or not do something? Obviously, we're all presented with choices and do, in fact, choose, so i'm just trying to be clear about what it means to have no choice. Indeed, compelled will work, (though impelled is probably a better descriptive).
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Post by enigma on Apr 3, 2013 17:46:53 GMT -5
Seems to me that's why he's pointing it out to you. There's some potential clarity there about what it means to say there is no chooser. Then, I'll never say it again, because all it has done in this case is lead to confusion. I retract my earlier comment. The purpose of discussion, then, would be to try to clear up confusion. I know you don't see yourself as having anything to be clear about, but maybe somebody else does.
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Post by enigma on Apr 3, 2013 17:49:26 GMT -5
Then i don't know what you mean by that. Do you mean you're compelled to do or not do something? Obviously, we're all presented with choices and do, in fact, choose, so i'm just trying to be clear about what it means to have no choice. Indeed, compelled will work, (though impelled is probably a better descriptive). Okay, thanks for clearing that up.
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