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Post by earnest on Apr 2, 2013 5:54:14 GMT -5
I’m a bit of a fan of self-inquiry, and I’m curious about what questions other people work with. Some questions I’ve been working with today
- What can I find that actually belongs to me? - What evidence is there of imperfection in this moment?
I went to a retreat with Linda Clair the weekend before last and was talking to her at one point about self-inquiry. She said that there is a risk of it becoming “too heady” (she didn’t use those exact words,. But close enough). I said that I liked to ask with the head and listen with the body – and she seemed ok with that answer
Threads seem a bit drifty around here lately (I am neither pro-drift or anti-drift!!) but if you chose to reply, I would appreciate it if you could stay on topic. Feel free to be humourous or sarcastic though. Puns are always appreciated. “Teaching Moments” ™© are to be avoided where possible. That’s all the rules I’ve got for now, but I might add others later…
So, what questions do you currently use? What questions have you used in the past? What “happened”?
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Post by onehandclapping on Apr 2, 2013 6:32:50 GMT -5
I’m a bit of a fan of self-inquiry, and I’m curious about what questions other people work with. Some questions I’ve been working with today
- What can I find that actually belongs to me? - What evidence is there of imperfection in this moment?
I went to a retreat with Linda Clair the weekend before last and was talking to her at one point about self-inquiry. She said that there is a risk of it becoming “too heady” (she didn’t use those exact words,. But close enough). I said that I liked to ask with the head and listen with the body – and she seemed ok with that answer
Threads seem a bit drifty around here lately (I am neither pro-drift or anti-drift!!) but if you chose to reply, I would appreciate it if you could stay on topic. Feel free to be humourous or sarcastic though. Puns are always appreciated. “Teaching Moments” ™© are to be avoided where possible. That’s all the rules I’ve got for now, but I might add others later…
So, what questions do you currently use? What questions have you used in the past? What “happened”?
What defines a "teaching moment"? Gotta make sure I obey the rules here...... Don't want you to slip and fall on any pointers or run into a sign post or two during this thread...... Cause lord knows, self inquiry fans hate that......
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2013 6:58:10 GMT -5
I find myself asking 'What is the source of this?' Usually that question is asked in the heat of the moment, usually in reference to intense emotional discomfort of some sort.
Seldom do I get any answer. I wait and look and wait and look and try to make sense of nothing. It seems helpful to see that there isn't anything really there except reactions to reactions.
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Post by earnest on Apr 2, 2013 7:07:35 GMT -5
Hmm I did wonder if rules would create more problems than they solved Teaching Moments are things like asking me "who is it asking the questions?", getting into complicated non-dual or non-non-dual wordplay, any mention of "camp membership", bickering. Kind of broad I guess. (and this is all a bit tongue in cheek of course)
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Post by onehandclapping on Apr 2, 2013 7:18:32 GMT -5
Ahhh I see.
Well, I dig on not asking questions. Just focus on now. Questions seem to lead to more questions and more mental noise/ projections/ ideas about reality. It's like a dog chasing its own tail. The answers to what peeps seek is beyond mind so why involve it at all?
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Post by laughter on Apr 2, 2013 10:10:39 GMT -5
So, what questions do you currently use? What questions have you used in the past? What “happened”? " What (the #@{&) happened to that inner peace ??" ...found to be just like the car keys or the TV remote!
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Post by enigma on Apr 2, 2013 10:26:37 GMT -5
Ahhh I see. Well, I dig on not asking questions. Just focus on now. Questions seem to lead to more questions and more mental noise/ projections/ ideas about reality. It's like a dog chasing its own tail. The answers to what peeps seek is beyond mind so why involve it at all? Because it's already knee-deep in the cover-up. That which seeks answers and is trying to decide if mind should be involved, is mind.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2013 11:58:38 GMT -5
Ahhh I see. Well, I dig on not asking questions. Just focus on now. Questions seem to lead to more questions and more mental noise/ projections/ ideas about reality. It's like a dog chasing its own tail. The answers to what peeps seek is beyond mind so why involve it at all? Because it's already knee-deep in the cover-up. That which seeks answers and is trying to decide if mind should be involved, is mind. Yes, and that's where a skilled teacher comes in. One who teaches without giving the seeking mind something to grasp, something to gain, something to hold, something to realize or something to achieve. Like a Koan the teacher is able to stop the incessant internal dialogue of the student for the briefest of moments. And it is in that moment where THIS, which has always been here, is revealed. It's also why the proliferation of spiritual teachers fail, because you can't make any money off of teaching the TRUTH.
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Post by onehandclapping on Apr 2, 2013 12:25:49 GMT -5
Ahhh I see. Well, I dig on not asking questions. Just focus on now. Questions seem to lead to more questions and more mental noise/ projections/ ideas about reality. It's like a dog chasing its own tail. The answers to what peeps seek is beyond mind so why involve it at all? Because it's already knee-deep in the cover-up. That which seeks answers and is trying to decide if mind should be involved, is mind. Obviously, but to those not yet aware of that, they need to get their minds "out of the imagined way" to create the space needed to see that. Focusing on the moment and ignoring the mind might give that opportunity. They have to play with the dealt cards. If there is still an imagined self, might as well give it imagined tasks, to reach the imagined goal. I used to use Papaji's mantra of "stop" a lot before my shift. Then I'd stop trying to stop. And stop trying to try. Eventually if you follow that "thought line" long enough you seem to find yourself completely focused on what is real. ZD called it ATA if he is still on here. E, I've gone to the "other side" of the "meeting peeps where they are in their search" subject. I used to think trying to point in the clearest way possible was always the best thing. But I found that shuts a lot of minds off to hearing the sign post all together. Instead, I found it more effective to speak using language they understand even if it sacrifices clarity. (After all it is just a sign post on their path, not the destination) For example, any time I talk to my father I code everything I say in Christian terminology. His mind can't handle hearing pointers uncoded because it conjures intense suffering for him. Have you explored this style of pointing before?? And E, follow the rules yo! None of this word playing, non-duality, duality teaching garbage in this thread.
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Post by onehandclapping on Apr 2, 2013 12:34:45 GMT -5
Because it's already knee-deep in the cover-up. That which seeks answers and is trying to decide if mind should be involved, is mind. Yes, and that's where a skilled teacher comes in. One who teaches without giving the seeking mind something to grasp, something to gain, something to hold, something to realize or something to achieve. Like a Koan the teacher is able to stop the incessant internal dialogue of the student for the briefest of moments. And it is in that moment where THIS, which has always been here, is revealed. It's also why the proliferation of spiritual teachers fail, because you can't make any money off of teaching the TRUTH. I agree. But (playing opposite advocate) is it truly possible to teach without giving the seeking mind something to grasp, etc? Even Koans, as great a teachers as they are, often create the illusion of progression. Seems to me that its all a sticky fog until This decides to show up and clear everything up.......
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2013 13:19:57 GMT -5
Yes, and that's where a skilled teacher comes in. One who teaches without giving the seeking mind something to grasp, something to gain, something to hold, something to realize or something to achieve. Like a Koan the teacher is able to stop the incessant internal dialogue of the student for the briefest of moments. And it is in that moment where THIS, which has always been here, is revealed. It's also why the proliferation of spiritual teachers fail, because you can't make any money off of teaching the TRUTH. I agree. But (playing opposite advocate) is it truly possible to teach without giving the seeking mind something to grasp, etc? Even Koans, as great a teachers as they are, often create the illusion of progression. Seems to me that its all a sticky fog until This decides to show up and clear everything up....... There are some masters who use silent teachings to bypass the grasping mind. And there are others who give the mind something to grasp as a subterfuge, allowing THIS to sneak up on the student.
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Post by enigma on Apr 2, 2013 13:20:02 GMT -5
Because it's already knee-deep in the cover-up. That which seeks answers and is trying to decide if mind should be involved, is mind. Yes, and that's where a skilled teacher comes in. One who teaches without giving the seeking mind something to grasp, something to gain, something to hold, something to realize or something to achieve. Like a Koan the teacher is able to stop the incessant internal dialogue of the student for the briefest of moments. And it is in that moment where THIS, which has always been here, is revealed. It's also why the proliferation of spiritual teachers fail, because you can't make any money off of teaching the TRUTH. I agree there's no profit in teaching the truth, as nobody really wants it. As for revealing the truth in that 'brief moment', it gets tricky and stays that way. It is possible for mind to be tricked, confused, and even badgered into seeing, or perhaps experiencing, the truth for a moment, but we have to ask how useful that actually is. It is seen, and then it isn't, and because of the nature of the seeing, there are no tracks left in the mind and no breadcrumbs to follow back to it. This recidivism is because the conditioning has not been changed, and the moment mind realizes it has been tricked, it immediately recovers it's delusional stance and holds on for dear life. If there is the attempt to repeat that 'moment', it is always approached from the perspective of mind grasping for something, which quite effectively prevents success.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2013 13:39:19 GMT -5
Yes, and that's where a skilled teacher comes in. One who teaches without giving the seeking mind something to grasp, something to gain, something to hold, something to realize or something to achieve. Like a Koan the teacher is able to stop the incessant internal dialogue of the student for the briefest of moments. And it is in that moment where THIS, which has always been here, is revealed. It's also why the proliferation of spiritual teachers fail, because you can't make any money off of teaching the TRUTH. I agree there's no profit in teaching the truth, as nobody really wants it. As for revealing the truth in that 'brief moment', it gets tricky and stays that way. It is possible for mind to be tricked, confused, and even badgered into seeing, or perhaps experiencing, the truth for a moment, but we have to ask how useful that actually is. It is seen, and then it isn't, and because of the nature of the seeing, there are no tracks left in the mind and no breadcrumbs to follow back to it. This recidivism is because the conditioning has not been changed, and the moment mind realizes it has been tricked, it immediately recovers it's delusional stance and holds on for dear life. If there is the attempt to repeat that 'moment', it is always approached from the perspective of mind grasping for something, which quite effectively prevents success. I agree and that is why a skilled teacher is a necessity. In my opinion, it is the teacher that knows how hard and how far to push the student. The teacher has to be available to rebuild the student's world after an encounter with the direct perceiving of Reality. To me, it's very much like an apprenticeship where the teacher piece by piece, initiates the student into his world of THIS. The teachers skill involves showing the student an alternate view of Reality without the student losing his mind.
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Post by enigma on Apr 2, 2013 13:43:47 GMT -5
Because it's already knee-deep in the cover-up. That which seeks answers and is trying to decide if mind should be involved, is mind. Obviously, but to those not yet aware of that, they need to get their minds "out of the imagined way" to create the space needed to see that. Focusing on the moment and ignoring the mind might give that opportunity. They have to play with the dealt cards. If there is still an imagined self, might as well give it imagined tasks, to reach the imagined goal. I used to use Papaji's mantra of "stop" a lot before my shift. Then I'd stop trying to stop. And stop trying to try. Eventually if you follow that "thought line" long enough you seem to find yourself completely focused on what is real. ZD called it ATA if he is still on here. Sure, I'm in favor of creating that 'space'. Howsoever, what I've noticed is that the 'space' can't be empty. That is, what is seen in this space must somehow impact the conditioning that normally fills that space, or one finds oneself ATA'ing or 'being present'as a perpetual kind of meditation practice that always ends with mind returning to it's usual programming. I say what is needed is alert, thoughtless attention, with a focus provided by mind. Essentially, this is what is being suggested with the inquiry, 'Who am I', (which is a mind based question without a mind based answer) though that particular focus is not appropriate for everybody. I use that 'style of pointing' continuously. I talk to peeps about whatever they bring, which may not be what they think they're bringing. I figure rules are made to be broken.
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Post by enigma on Apr 2, 2013 14:04:59 GMT -5
I agree there's no profit in teaching the truth, as nobody really wants it. As for revealing the truth in that 'brief moment', it gets tricky and stays that way. It is possible for mind to be tricked, confused, and even badgered into seeing, or perhaps experiencing, the truth for a moment, but we have to ask how useful that actually is. It is seen, and then it isn't, and because of the nature of the seeing, there are no tracks left in the mind and no breadcrumbs to follow back to it. This recidivism is because the conditioning has not been changed, and the moment mind realizes it has been tricked, it immediately recovers it's delusional stance and holds on for dear life. If there is the attempt to repeat that 'moment', it is always approached from the perspective of mind grasping for something, which quite effectively prevents success. I agree and that is why a skilled teacher is a necessity. In my opinion, it is the teacher that knows how hard and how far to push the student. The teacher has to be available to rebuild the student's world after an encounter with the direct perceiving of Reality. To me, it's very much like an apprenticeship where the teacher piece by piece, initiates the student into his world of THIS. The teachers skill involves showing the student an alternate view of Reality without the student losing his mind. Sounds like it might be a good thingy.
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