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Post by enigma on Apr 3, 2013 12:24:07 GMT -5
It seems to me that an expectation, once noticed, would form a useful focus of self-inquiry. The prescription to "drop all expectation" is flawed as it is an ambition, but when one is noticed, it's likely to manifest as a voice in the head expressing an outcome and the reasons that the specific outcome should come to pass and the sequence of events that is likely to lead to it. This can be accompanied by feelings of alertness, anxiety even... a physical tension related to the possibility of the expectation being dashed. Paying attention to that voice and those feelings, not to associate some cause with them, not to reinforce them or validate them or to belittle or diminish them, but just to look at them as they arise, is self-inquiry. (at least one form of it)The question "who is it that has this expectation?" doesn't have to be in the forefront of the mind, and here we can see how the "who" translates directly into the "what" ... because it is obviously the body/mind that noticed the expectation that "has the expectation" so to speak. In the witnessing as the expectation arises and falls within the attention, it is the structures of thought and conditioning... the "what" that forms the expectation, that is witnessed. To expect that the expectation will never arise again after being "successfully witnessed into oblivion" a single time is what it is, an expectation... ... as would be the expectation that the expectation would weaken over time ... but to be honest, this is kinda' what happens ... In the absence of a single or a set of expectations, especially after some of the most bedrock ones that underlie the daily actor have been witnessed for awhile, a sort of dry, dissatisfied, empty nihilistic outlook can come in to fill the void. Don't expect this of course ( ), but if it happens it's just another opportunity, another focus for self-inquiry. Why would noticing expectations make the expectations go away? Not saying it doesn't, just askin.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2013 12:32:36 GMT -5
People do all sorts of things and have all sorts of rituals to center themselves. They have a morning routine, they stick to schedules, they take up hobbies that give them a focus other than materially supporting their lifestyles, they like to read or to relax or engage in physical recreation. Hell, even just sitting down each week to watch a favorite TV show is a form of centering in a way. One aspect of meditation is that in those moments or intervals in which the mind is quiet, really really quiet, there is no split, no multiple voices, no confusion. Approaching such a practice with such an expectation is of course, an expectation, and it is at least an irony if not a paradox that meditation provides a center for life without a center. There seems to be a quite a bit of cultural baggage attached to that word ... "meditation", but in my mind it can be as simple as just sitting down somewhere you won't be interrupted for like 10 minutes, closing your eyes, and simply cultivating an attitude of witnessing the contents of the mind from as unjudgmental a perspective as can be mustered. The metaphor of the mind as the sky and thoughts as clouds is useful for describing this ... just sit with your eyes closed for a few minutes and watch the clouds roll by without sticking animal-shapes on them and don't expect it not to rain. Meditate fer what? My 'walking around state' is probably quite similar anyway. Stress, dis-satisfaction, or expectation issues rarely linger, and even when they come, why shoo them away? Everything is useful.
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Post by laughter on Apr 3, 2013 12:35:25 GMT -5
People do all sorts of things and have all sorts of rituals to center themselves. They have a morning routine, they stick to schedules, they take up hobbies that give them a focus other than materially supporting their lifestyles, they like to read or to relax or engage in physical recreation. Hell, even just sitting down each week to watch a favorite TV show is a form of centering in a way. One aspect of meditation is that in those moments or intervals in which the mind is quiet, really really quiet, there is no split, no multiple voices, no confusion. Approaching such a practice with such an expectation is of course, an expectation, and it is at least an irony if not a paradox that meditation provides a center for life without a center. There seems to be a quite a bit of cultural baggage attached to that word ... "meditation", but in my mind it can be as simple as just sitting down somewhere you won't be interrupted for like 10 minutes, closing your eyes, and simply cultivating an attitude of witnessing the contents of the mind from as unjudgmental a perspective as can be mustered. The metaphor of the mind as the sky and thoughts as clouds is useful for describing this ... just sit with your eyes closed for a few minutes and watch the clouds roll by without sticking animal-shapes on them and don't expect it not to rain. Meditate fer what? My 'walking around state' is probably quite similar anyway. Stress, dis-satisfaction, or expectation issues rarely linger, and even when they come, why shoo them away? Everything is useful. Well exactly ... meditating for a purpose is self-defeating from the get go ... but you mentioned a certain mind-state, so I mentioned a different mind state. oh .. and as far as "shooing" is concerned, I couldn't agree more, and I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.
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Post by laughter on Apr 3, 2013 12:39:16 GMT -5
It seems to me that an expectation, once noticed, would form a useful focus of self-inquiry. The prescription to "drop all expectation" is flawed as it is an ambition, but when one is noticed, it's likely to manifest as a voice in the head expressing an outcome and the reasons that the specific outcome should come to pass and the sequence of events that is likely to lead to it. This can be accompanied by feelings of alertness, anxiety even... a physical tension related to the possibility of the expectation being dashed. Paying attention to that voice and those feelings, not to associate some cause with them, not to reinforce them or validate them or to belittle or diminish them, but just to look at them as they arise, is self-inquiry. (at least one form of it)The question "who is it that has this expectation?" doesn't have to be in the forefront of the mind, and here we can see how the "who" translates directly into the "what" ... because it is obviously the body/mind that noticed the expectation that "has the expectation" so to speak. In the witnessing as the expectation arises and falls within the attention, it is the structures of thought and conditioning... the "what" that forms the expectation, that is witnessed. To expect that the expectation will never arise again after being "successfully witnessed into oblivion" a single time is what it is, an expectation... ... as would be the expectation that the expectation would weaken over time ... but to be honest, this is kinda' what happens ... In the absence of a single or a set of expectations, especially after some of the most bedrock ones that underlie the daily actor have been witnessed for awhile, a sort of dry, dissatisfied, empty nihilistic outlook can come in to fill the void. Don't expect this of course ( ), but if it happens it's just another opportunity, another focus for self-inquiry. Why would noticing expectations make the expectations go away? Not saying it doesn't, just askin. To be honest I dunno ... maybe it has something to do with undoing conditioning. Whatever works. Bottom line is that "Who is it that expects?" and "Who is it that doesn't want to expect?" are forms of self-inquiry, and what I was trying to point out was that the mechanics of the inquiry don't necessarily involve sitting there with those questions in the forefront of the mind digging around in the back of it for an answer. The witness is that solvent that Niz was referring to in what you posted the Terminator skeleton in response to.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2013 12:47:22 GMT -5
Well exactly ... meditating for a purpose is self-defeating from the get go ... but you mentioned a certain mind-state, so I mentioned a different mind state. What questions have you used in the past? What “happened”? ~ earnest yeah I told the story of a memory from a few years back, the story of today would be a different one
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2013 12:55:31 GMT -5
Where are the stories of joe blow, sack of meat, fizzlers? Are they just too boring to notice? The 15years later guy ZD mentioned was pretty encouraging. Here's a question earnest: "what is it like without expectation?" <-- sort of similar to the coming empty concept. Yes, Joe Blow, meat sack's realization that he is God doesn't get passed on due to its ordinariness. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memetics In order for a story (meme) to pass on, it has to hook the mind into replicating it. The mind is fixated on stories which are interesting, non-ordinary, or promise that some kind of specialness is achieved. The spontaneous realization in Joe Blow is going to release the tension in his mind, bring him existential peace, but not necessarily change his personality, external behavior or bodily manifestation in the world. People might notice that he's "calmed down" or become more content, easier to be around, but that's about it. He may never talk about his insight or share it with anyone. He has no need to. 'calmed down,' more content, easier to be around <-- these are all descriptor's of me. But I thought that was just what happened with maturation. However, now I'm proud to report that maybe I'm enlightened afterall!!
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Post by topology on Apr 3, 2013 13:18:25 GMT -5
Yes, Joe Blow, meat sack's realization that he is God doesn't get passed on due to its ordinariness. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memetics In order for a story (meme) to pass on, it has to hook the mind into replicating it. The mind is fixated on stories which are interesting, non-ordinary, or promise that some kind of specialness is achieved. The spontaneous realization in Joe Blow is going to release the tension in his mind, bring him existential peace, but not necessarily change his personality, external behavior or bodily manifestation in the world. People might notice that he's "calmed down" or become more content, easier to be around, but that's about it. He may never talk about his insight or share it with anyone. He has no need to. 'calmed down,' more content, easier to be around <-- these are all descriptor's of me. But I thought that was just what happened with maturation. However, now I'm proud to report that maybe I'm enlightened afterall!! *smashes a half peeled banana in Max's face*
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2013 13:20:54 GMT -5
I've tried 'Who am I?' on occasion. It's confusing though. Seems like a set up. First presuppose that there is an I, then ask who it is. 'What am I?' leaves the door open a little bit, but it still is a loaded question.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2013 13:21:35 GMT -5
'calmed down,' more content, easier to be around <-- these are all descriptor's of me. But I thought that was just what happened with maturation. However, now I'm proud to report that maybe I'm enlightened afterall!! *smashes a half peeled banana in Max's face* yum! food for the monkeymind
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Post by enigma on Apr 3, 2013 13:25:18 GMT -5
Why would noticing expectations make the expectations go away? Not saying it doesn't, just askin. To be honest I dunno ... maybe it has something to do with undoing conditioning. Whatever works. Bottom line is that "Who is it that expects?" and "Who is it that doesn't want to expect?" are forms of self-inquiry, and what I was trying to point out was that the mechanics of the inquiry don't necessarily involve sitting there with those questions in the forefront of the mind digging around in the back of it for an answer. The witness is that solvent that Niz was referring to in what you posted the Terminator skeleton in response to. As I see it, the witness position is useful in noticing what is happening, which is what I mean by becoming conscious. However, noticing something like expectation just means that the expectations are conscious. It doesn't, by virtue of the noticing, make them stop. That requires noticing some other stuff about the validity of those expectations. So, I'm not suggesting that your own expectations didn't go away, but I am suggesting that it may have been because of something you noticed about the expectations, and not the noticing of the expectations themselves.
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Post by silence on Apr 3, 2013 14:06:00 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure they're called psychiatrists... I've only ever seen those guys work from afar and from what I can tell they pretty much delegate everything to the drug companies. By and large I'd agree with you. There are actually branches of psychiatry that fully embrace much of what's discussed here. I recall talking to my neighbor once who said that one of the very first things his psychiatrist told him was that the "me" I think I am is nothing more than a narrative that doesn't exist at all in the way I think it does.
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Post by silence on Apr 3, 2013 14:09:23 GMT -5
Demolition is quite a different matter from the construction phase that trf references ... demolition is the bizniz I'm interested in. No more refits, extensions or paint jobs. What do you want demolished?
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Post by laughter on Apr 3, 2013 14:10:41 GMT -5
To be honest I dunno ... maybe it has something to do with undoing conditioning. Whatever works. Bottom line is that "Who is it that expects?" and "Who is it that doesn't want to expect?" are forms of self-inquiry, and what I was trying to point out was that the mechanics of the inquiry don't necessarily involve sitting there with those questions in the forefront of the mind digging around in the back of it for an answer. The witness is that solvent that Niz was referring to in what you posted the Terminator skeleton in response to. As I see it, the witness position is useful in noticing what is happening, which is what I mean by becoming conscious. However, noticing something like expectation just means that the expectations are conscious. It doesn't, by virtue of the noticing, make them stop. That requires noticing some other stuff about the validity of those expectations. So, I'm not suggesting that your own expectations didn't go away, but I am suggesting that it may have been because of something you noticed about the expectations, and not the noticing of the expectations themselves. You might be right ... I'm hesitant to say anything in general about the nature of expectation beyond what I've said already, but I will say that in witnessing any movement of thought without following it there seems a tendency to create detachment, what I've read described as "distance" or "space" between me and that movement ... perhaps this might be described as sort of erosion of identification.
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Post by silence on Apr 3, 2013 14:11:55 GMT -5
So, what questions do you currently use? What questions have you used in the past? What “happened”? Pretty much my entire life, I've been looking inward (alcohol can prevent it, though). To answer your question, though, the question that I 'currently use', is ... ? In other words, I pretty much perpetually inquire within questioningly. It's not a verbal thing, but it is still sensate. Seems to be focused, like, right behind the very center of my back. Sounds like you keep yourself quite busy.
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Post by silence on Apr 3, 2013 14:26:35 GMT -5
What questions have you used in the past? What “happened”? are the thoughts in my head true? can I trust them? after many months of persistent, honest, inquiry ... the answer seemed to be "no" on both counts. but it wasn't like a typical word answer 'no', but more like a deep intuitive knowing. and once it occurred two things 'happened'; the constant barrage of thoughts in my head stopped/slowed, and two, I became somewhat discombobulated. I mean, if you can't trust your own thoughts, who can you trust? nothing I had been believing seemed true any more, at best it was only half-true, and much of those beliefs turned out to be a complete imaginary nonsense. and then came the internal dialog battle ... who's asking the questions/ and who's answering them? Jeez, what a clusterphuck ... and so, a few years later, here I sit. I've pretty much determined that mind can't examine its self, that you need to gain a higher perspective for that operation, that you need to 'get out of the box'. I'm still looking for an escape hatch :-) There was a very persistent boundary that I couldn't see past for a very long time that related to imagination comprising things that don't directly relate to my life (unicorns, fantasies etc.). Then there was thought. Thought seemed to be that which was intertwined with everything I could see, touch, hear, taste, smell etc. The boundary was of course created by thought and the moment it was seen through, it was obvious that it was all imagination. I understood what it meant when it's said "you're making it all up". The reason I mention this is because this wasn't some boundary that I was off looking for or trying to sniff out with self inquiry. In fact, it also became clear that the vast majority of my self inquiry was also just mind playing hide and seek with itself. I can't say in any shape or form that I had anything to do with causing this boundary to be seen through. All I can say is that preceeding this, the attention seemed to stop 'looking there'. Which is what I interpret you to mean when you talk about a higher perspective.
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