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Post by silence on Apr 12, 2013 20:44:53 GMT -5
To me, it's a distraction. Thought doesn't actually have the power to obstruct clarity in and of itself. Thinking is one of those things happening that isn't problematic until thought is believed to be more than it actually is. Which is to say that imagination is taken to be more than simply imagination. Egoic thought is a subcategory of the movement of thought as a whole. Meaning that not all thought is a movement of resistance nor does the cessation of thought to me have something to do with how attained someone is. On the contrary, thinking is actually a critical part of functioning as an adult human. Rather I would say that the quality of thought is much more to the point. One that is looking to thought for what's true will find thought to have an overbearing solid nature that dominates their experience as a whole. One that has lost interest and/or seen through thinking as a whole will find thought to be much more transparent and more of a background movement. I'd say it's true that a quieter mind is likely but not guaranteed over the long term. To the degree that one begins to suspect they are not as spiritually attained as they thought because thinking is present is also arising as more thought. At the end of the day, there is no experience outside of mind. Experience is literally the movement of thought. If we're to talk about spiritual attainment in any sort of meaningful and practical way, it must be about mind coming to rest. Rest not meaning that it goes away but rather that it stops going to war with itself and returns to a role where it serves the organism rather than the other way around. For the most part I agree with this. I would only point out that thinking is highly over-rated and is unnecessary for most of life's activities. In the silence that occurs when thinking is absent many things become obvious that would not otherwise be noticed. I did not mean to imply that mental silence is necessary for spiritual attainment, or that spiritual attainment even matters, and I don't think Eckhart is saying that either. It is probably more of a correlation thing. People who are relatively free of thought tend to see more deeply and more clearly the nature of "what is." I can agree with that assuming we're both talking about thinking as the superfluous movement that doesn't serve any real functional purpose. The mostly unnoticed thinking that makes up functioning in a variety of ways is not something that anyone wants to see fall away. People often find out the massive extent to which mind really plays a role even when it seems to be 'still' when conditions like alzheimer's set in. As for the second part, I agree. I think finding a ground of silence to look from is incredibly important and probably what most traditions tell people to master first for a very good reason. I too think the whole spiritual attainment idea can be thrown out along with any sort of disagreement about it. My only caution is in looking to silence as anything more than a useful opportunity to gain perspective and end erroneous ways of perceiving. The moment silence is seen as the goal in and of itself or some meter to spiritual advancement, my eyebrow is raised immediately.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2013 21:34:42 GMT -5
Yes, what is going on here in this moment? When Mooji asks "Can the seer be seen?", he is talking about this NOW moment of perceiving. In other words, he is asking the mind that conceives if it can be a perceiver of this NOW moment? He's asking if subjectivity can objectify itself. He's asking you to notice that you cannot be an object appearing to you. He's implying that nothing you can see can be what you are. He's not actually addressing mind. As he says "I love you too much to treat you like a person." If Mooji's implication is not addressing mind, then the informing of the mind of his implication is irrelevant, yes? IOW, if the informing of the mind is irrelevant to knowing what we are, why have you spent so many years trying to inform the minds of peeps on this forum?
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Post by enigma on Apr 12, 2013 22:56:12 GMT -5
Yeah, I was teasin about Ramana and Eckhart. I suspect they're both purdy clear about that war thingy. I saw the pirate! -- no need to applogize! ... even without 'em! Aaarrggg!
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Post by enigma on Apr 12, 2013 23:05:31 GMT -5
He's asking if subjectivity can objectify itself. He's asking you to notice that you cannot be an object appearing to you. He's implying that nothing you can see can be what you are. He's not actually addressing mind. As he says "I love you too much to treat you like a person." If Mooji's implication is not addressing mind, then the informing of the mind of his implication is irrelevant, yes? IOW, if the informing of the mind is irrelevant to knowing what we are, why have you spent so many years trying to inform the minds of peeps on this forum? I thought we had agreed to stop the insanity.
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Post by Reefs on Apr 12, 2013 23:09:12 GMT -5
If Mooji's implication is not addressing mind, then the informing of the mind of his implication is irrelevant, yes? IOW, if the informing of the mind is irrelevant to knowing what we are, why have you spent so many years trying to inform the minds of peeps on this forum? I thought we had agreed to stop the insanity. Dear Dude/Dudette, It's on autopilot it seems. Sincerely, The Great Blue Hole Of Belize
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Post by tzujanli on Apr 12, 2013 23:31:24 GMT -5
Greetings.. Like most folks on this path I’ve had lots of realizations, but the most significant one was the one that ended the spiritual search. After six days of fairly continual ATA’ing, the body had an emotionally-unifying experience coupled with a feeling of immense gratitude. The emotional thing seemed to arise, spontaneously, but it’s possible that it was triggered by thoughts that are no longer remembered. After the experience, I felt just like anyone who has had a deeply emotional experience; there was a feeling of emptiness, peace, contentment, buoyancy, joy, etc, as if the body/mind had been washed clean in some manner. After that emotional experience, there was a subtle sense that something was missing, but that sense of missingness did not rise to the level of cognition. It was only later that I realized that the sense had been extant in some vague under-the-surface way. Two hours after the emotional experience, I suddenly realized that the sense of being a separate entity, a “me,” had totally vanished, and it became instantly obvious that there had never been a “me” in any sense. I realized that the body/mind’s sense of having a personal identity had been an illusion. When it was seen that who I had thought I was had vanished, it then became crystal clear that what I AM is “what is.” This became obvious simply because there was no longer anything separate from “what is.” Yeah, you're describing an emptying out, which is something mind simply can't identify in it's own language because it's literally the absence of conditions, and it's those conditions that mind uses to identify what's going on. Mind lost something, and the robbery was carried out by the realization, but the realization, itself, is empty. It's the power of this emptiness that empties mind. The realization precedes the loss that happens in mind. Both the realization and the robbery of mind must occur. Fortunately, mind is not bound by this limited conception of it.. there is no 'empty mind', only the appearance inspired by the 'stillness of mind', where the contents remain though understanding evolves.. What mind 'loses' is attachment.. mind can actually detach from the desire to have mystical realizations and vanishing identities, mind can become still and clear, but.. and i say this with deep affection for those afflicted, the affirmations being told as stories of vanishing 'me's are greater affirmations of attachment to that 'me'.. if you find yourself telling the story of your realization and your vanishing 'me', you are affirming that your 'me' is alive and well.. The allure of mystical realizations and magical remedies is an addiction created by socio-religious conditioning.. it is an elaborate structure of beliefs insisting that using the mind is not 'real', and that 'mind' cannot know the 'real'.. it's an illusion that seeks to captivate people's attention and focus it away from evolving an understanding of existence that would render the dependency on 'stories' obsolete.. stories, regardless of their feel-good factor or their promise of enlightenment, are distractions.. a suggestion, as i envision it, suggests a process and allows for the experiencer's understanding to find the natural result.. as an example: I suggest that the experiencers confirm their experiences.. and, the natural result is a process of confirmation which refines itself to the clarity of experiencing.. as Life is a continuum of experience, it becomes a process of confirmation through clearly experiencing Life.. Mind is neither absent nor empty, it is the tool of 'realization'.. mind is not separate from who/what you are, it is the lens through which perception happens.. Be well..
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Post by enigma on Apr 13, 2013 0:02:40 GMT -5
Greetings.. Yeah, you're describing an emptying out, which is something mind simply can't identify in it's own language because it's literally the absence of conditions, and it's those conditions that mind uses to identify what's going on. Mind lost something, and the robbery was carried out by the realization, but the realization, itself, is empty. It's the power of this emptiness that empties mind. The realization precedes the loss that happens in mind. Both the realization and the robbery of mind must occur. Fortunately, mind is not bound by this limited conception of it.. there is no 'empty mind', only the appearance inspired by the 'stillness of mind', where the contents remain though understanding evolves.. I didn't say empty mind. What I mean by "emptying out" is losing the belief in the reality of an illusion. Have you ever heard me tell such a story? Well then where did your story come from?
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Post by tzujanli on Apr 13, 2013 6:02:55 GMT -5
Greetings.. Fortunately, mind is not bound by this limited conception of it.. there is no 'empty mind', only the appearance inspired by the 'stillness of mind', where the contents remain though understanding evolves.. What you understand as an illusion and what i understand as an illusion might differ, what illusions are you referencing? Have you ever heard me tell such a story? Well then where did your story come from? Did i say 'you' ever told such a story? that reference relates to ZD's account to which you were replying.. Be well..
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Post by topology on Apr 13, 2013 7:23:39 GMT -5
What you understand as an illusion and what i understand as an illusion might differ, what illusions are you referencing? Have you ever heard me tell such a story? Well then where did your story come from? Did i say 'you' ever told such a story? that reference relates to ZD's account to which you were replying.. Be well.. Are you saying that in replying to Enigma you were really addressing something ZD said?
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Post by zendancer on Apr 13, 2013 7:51:30 GMT -5
For the most part I agree with this. I would only point out that thinking is highly over-rated and is unnecessary for most of life's activities. In the silence that occurs when thinking is absent many things become obvious that would not otherwise be noticed. I did not mean to imply that mental silence is necessary for spiritual attainment, or that spiritual attainment even matters, and I don't think Eckhart is saying that either. It is probably more of a correlation thing. People who are relatively free of thought tend to see more deeply and more clearly the nature of "what is." I can agree with that assuming we're both talking about thinking as the superfluous movement that doesn't serve any real functional purpose. The mostly unnoticed thinking that makes up functioning in a variety of ways is not something that anyone wants to see fall away. People often find out the massive extent to which mind really plays a role even when it seems to be 'still' when conditions like alzheimer's set in. As for the second part, I agree. I think finding a ground of silence to look from is incredibly important and probably what most traditions tell people to master first for a very good reason. I too think the whole spiritual attainment idea can be thrown out along with any sort of disagreement about it. My only caution is in looking to silence as anything more than a useful opportunity to gain perspective and end erroneous ways of perceiving. The moment silence is seen as the goal in and of itself or some meter to spiritual advancement, my eyebrow is raised immediately. Total agreement.
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Post by tzujanli on Apr 13, 2013 9:33:51 GMT -5
Greetings.. Did i say 'you' ever told such a story? that reference relates to ZD's account to which you were replying.. Be well.. Are you saying that in replying to Enigma you were really addressing something ZD said? No. Be well..
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2013 10:01:53 GMT -5
If Mooji's implication is not addressing mind, then the informing of the mind of his implication is irrelevant, yes? IOW, if the informing of the mind is irrelevant to knowing what we are, why have you spent so many years trying to inform the minds of peeps on this forum? I thought we had agreed to stop the insanity. I need some more material for my new book, "Knowing What You Really Are and Phil's-osophy"....
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2013 10:12:01 GMT -5
Greetings.. Fortunately, mind is not bound by this limited conception of it.. there is no 'empty mind', only the appearance inspired by the 'stillness of mind', where the contents remain though understanding evolves.. I didn't say empty mind. What I mean by "emptying out" is losing the belief in the reality of an illusion. Have you ever heard me tell such a story? Well then where did your story come from? Maybe the vanishing 'me' goes to the same place as the perceiver that vanishes when you perceive Reality directly, but I don't know...
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Post by Reefs on Apr 13, 2013 10:29:16 GMT -5
I thought we had agreed to stop the insanity. I need some more material for my new book, "Knowing What You Really Are and Phil's-osophy".... Dear Dude/Dudette, Philosophy ---> Greek: philos + sophia = loving + wisdom ---> Phil = embodiment of love ---> Phil's-osophy = The Wisdom of the Embodiment of Love Nice book title. Congratulations! Sincerely, The Great Blue Hole Of Belize
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Post by enigma on Apr 13, 2013 10:35:30 GMT -5
I thought we had agreed to stop the insanity. I need some more material for my new book, "Knowing What You Really Are and Phil's-osophy".... Sounds like I should be expecting some royalties on that. WooHoo!
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