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Post by silence on Apr 5, 2013 14:13:29 GMT -5
The intention and effort made to ATA must fall away at some point Actually, what happens eventually is that the one who was imagined to be ATA'ing is seen through, and then it doesn't matter what is happening. It is realized that there is no person behind any activity, even ATA. That's why I said that everyone starts out under the illusion that there is a person who is meditating, ATA'ing, etc, but this illusion utlimately collapses, and all twoness comes to an end. From that point on there is neither oneness nor twoness because there is no longer any imagined separation. There is simply washing dishes, mowing the lawn, having dinner with friends, going to work, etc. The body/mind will still meditate, ATA, or think, but the previously imagined separation is no longer imagined. The body is intelligent, and it becomes obvious that ordinary everyday life is perfect just the way it is. (If the sage is in the middle of a war zone and is asked, "Is this perfect?" she will respond, "Shut up and pass the ammunition!") By the time the illusion of selfhood is seen through, imagination has been realized as the culprit that gave rise to the illusion of separation, so imagination plays a much smaller role in the life of the sage than in people who have not seen this. The sage, who is one-with the truth, is content with life however it manifests, acts appropriately, and is no longer jerked around by fantasies and other machinations of mind. Mind is a docile servant providing practical answers to practical questions, and no longer roams around in a world of complex layered abstractions. There is no longer any need to control thinking (because the imagined controller has vanished), but the body may enjoy sitting and looking at the world in mental silence (ATA) in the same way that a bird watcher may enjoy watching birds. There is no ulterior purpose in that activity; it is simply what the body does. If someone asks a sage, "Why do you sit and look at the world in silence?" the sage will simply smile. I agree except that I would challenge that there is ever a "what happens is...". In other words, the way in which people find themselves waking up is as diverse as the variety of fingerprints. I recall you saying before that you had an intuitive sense or something similar that paying attention to what was happening outside of thought was "the way" so to speak and so you did. In other words, I'd say that what people are actually doing whether it's ATA, bass fishing or self inquiry is far less relevant than where they're doing it from. Life may actually want to wake up by thinking so much that the person literally goes clinically insane before suddenly snapping out of it or it may want to enjoy the sleepy time a while longer. Someone may find it necessary to abandon their entire spiritual discovery because being honest with themselves reveals it was just a guise for escapism.
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Post by silence on Apr 5, 2013 14:20:18 GMT -5
You don't need to understand ANYTHING to be present. What I'm hearing is that you can't NOT be present. There is presence even in delusion. And the phenomenon of seemingly going in and out of presence is just the appearing and disappearing of that delusion. Yes, that was essentially the conversation I was having with quinn recently. The only thing coming and going is really just resistance and that resistance is you as you know yourself. That resistance is distorting your clarity and so you could say clarity has been obscured but only in the way that the sun is obscured by a passing cloud. Any and all attempts to manipulate that fearful resistance is just more fearful resistance and is why the situation is totally hopeless from the personal perspective.
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Post by silence on Apr 5, 2013 14:27:31 GMT -5
If you zoomed all the way out so to speak it would be obvious that the situation is not what it seems. In other words, you're pretending not to know what you already know. Zoom back down again and there very well may be willingness and sincerity present but likely only to see a very limited amount at a time. In any case it's never about waiting for God to slam his gavel and grant you realization. It's about catching on to the very game you're playing. Once you're on to yourself it's much more difficult to keep the sharade going. This is what I figure. The the zoomed out perspective of seeing what is going on here as game-playing or lack of willingness or sincerity can only be imagined from this zoomed in perspective. I am willing to believe and have faith in this zoomed out perspective. Maybe that willingness to believe in a zoomed out perspective is because it is secretly rooted in True Willingness? But right now, call it game playing or lack of willingness or whatever, it's just what it is. The only usefulness of pointing out that it's ultimately a game you're playing with yourself is to basically reignite that sense of suspicion that often gets smothered by the weight of the ego asserting that it really is just a good hearted seeker who's being ignored by a God who doesn't want to give up the goods.
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Post by silence on Apr 5, 2013 14:31:47 GMT -5
Yes, your personality is always going to be unique and that's the way it's supposed to be. Which is why all the emulation of saints and teachers is completely missing the point. The only thing that's pretty much guaranteed is that the absence of an imaginary moderator filtering and distorting your personality will likely make you much more direct. Dear Dude/Dudette, And following that logic, somehow folks seem to think that a 'non-dualist' should be a "man without qualities". Sincerely, The Great Blue Hole Of Belize Right, come into my lair and be transformed into a robot!
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Post by silence on Apr 5, 2013 14:37:08 GMT -5
Well you know me by now Max, and that was just me having a little fun, and I know you well enough by now to realize the likely possibility that you are too. In the interest of not propagating confusion and at the risk of working directly against that I'll add the following. Assuming that one has not realized what enigma was referring to, when they do realize, part of the realization will include the notion that what they realized was something that they actually knew all along. ie: an unknown known. Oh that unknown known. Yea, that's why I say "I'll see it when I see it." Maybe I should be saying "I'll see what I'm already seeing when I see what I'm already seeing." There is a delightful absurdity to that. Can you confidently say that everything is created from consciousness? Did you witness yourself being born? Little arms and legs wiggling? Those are the sorts of realizations that I can only imagine and/or take on faith and say something like "I'll see it when I see it" or see from a zoomed out perspective, etc. Not a big deal. *ski jump* is where it's at. You're already seeing what you're interested in seeing NOW which is a doorway into seeing that the desire to see this other stuff is loaded with ulterior motives.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2013 14:43:07 GMT -5
Oh that unknown known. Yea, that's why I say "I'll see it when I see it." Maybe I should be saying "I'll see what I'm already seeing when I see what I'm already seeing." There is a delightful absurdity to that. Can you confidently say that everything is created from consciousness? Did you witness yourself being born? Little arms and legs wiggling? Those are the sorts of realizations that I can only imagine and/or take on faith and say something like "I'll see it when I see it" or see from a zoomed out perspective, etc. Not a big deal. *ski jump* is where it's at. You're already seeing what you're interested in seeing NOW which is a doorway into seeing that the desire to see this other stuff is loaded with ulterior motives. Makes sense.
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Post by enigma on Apr 5, 2013 14:49:45 GMT -5
This is what I figure. The the zoomed out perspective of seeing what is going on here as game-playing or lack of willingness or sincerity can only be imagined from this zoomed in perspective. I am willing to believe and have faith in this zoomed out perspective. Maybe that willingness to believe in a zoomed out perspective is because it is secretly rooted in True Willingness? But right now, call it game playing or lack of willingness or whatever, it's just what it is. The only usefulness of pointing out that it's ultimately a game you're playing with yourself is to basically reignite that sense of suspicion that often gets smothered by the weight of the ego asserting that it really is just a good hearted seeker who's being ignored by a God who doesn't want to give up the goods. Zacklee. The whole point is to try to notice the game playing, cuz if it's noticed, the game ends and one is face to face with his own willingness or unwillingness. It can go either way, of course, but at least there are no games.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2013 14:52:57 GMT -5
What I'm hearing is that you can't NOT be present. There is presence even in delusion. And the phenomenon of seemingly going in and out of presence is just the appearing and disappearing of that delusion. Yes, that was essentially the conversation I was having with quinn recently. The only thing coming and going is really just resistance and that resistance is you as you know yourself. That resistance is distorting your clarity and so you could say clarity has been obscured but only in the way that the sun is obscured by a passing cloud. Any and all attempts to manipulate that fearful resistance is just more fearful resistance and is why the situation is totally hopeless from the personal perspective. The fear factor is not something I'm aware of. I understand that maybe it takes a different form and I'm just not seeing it with my cloudy vision.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2013 14:56:23 GMT -5
The only usefulness of pointing out that it's ultimately a game you're playing with yourself is to basically reignite that sense of suspicion that often gets smothered by the weight of the ego asserting that it really is just a good hearted seeker who's being ignored by a God who doesn't want to give up the goods. Zacklee. The whole point is to try to notice the game playing, cuz if it's noticed, the game ends and one is face to face with his own willingness or unwillingness. It can go either way, of course, but at least there are no games. Okay. Y'all are invited to keep pointing this out to me, seriously. Perhaps this here ego is disguised in a really sneaky costume right now that I can't see. I like the premise. Of course, from here, it doesn't seem rooted in experience. But I suppose that's why it's such a good disguise.
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Post by silence on Apr 5, 2013 14:58:13 GMT -5
The only usefulness of pointing out that it's ultimately a game you're playing with yourself is to basically reignite that sense of suspicion that often gets smothered by the weight of the ego asserting that it really is just a good hearted seeker who's being ignored by a God who doesn't want to give up the goods. Zacklee. The whole point is to try to notice the game playing, cuz if it's noticed, the game ends and one is face to face with his own willingness or unwillingness. It can go either way, of course, but at least there are no games. Right. And at least at that point it can become about what one IS willing to do and do that. A time saver at the very least.
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Post by silence on Apr 5, 2013 15:13:53 GMT -5
Yes, that was essentially the conversation I was having with quinn recently. The only thing coming and going is really just resistance and that resistance is you as you know yourself. That resistance is distorting your clarity and so you could say clarity has been obscured but only in the way that the sun is obscured by a passing cloud. Any and all attempts to manipulate that fearful resistance is just more fearful resistance and is why the situation is totally hopeless from the personal perspective. The fear factor is not something I'm aware of. I understand that maybe it takes a different form and I'm just not seeing it with my cloudy vision. Yeah, talking about it as fear is not always recognizable for a variety of reasons. Fear can be almost a totally unconscious motivator and it can present itself in all different ways. Additionally, if one's life is going reasonably well, it may actually seem like "I'm doing it and I'm getting what I want" and so that sense of empowerment totally overshadows any recognition of fear. Make no mistake though, the very presence of the personal separate perspective is entirely rooted in fear. Like you, fear was not a conscious presence in my life even though it was driving just about every action that was made. This fear only began to reveal itself for what it was and with tremendous power when I really started giving attention to silence.
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Post by topology on Apr 5, 2013 15:19:48 GMT -5
Yes, that was essentially the conversation I was having with quinn recently. The only thing coming and going is really just resistance and that resistance is you as you know yourself. That resistance is distorting your clarity and so you could say clarity has been obscured but only in the way that the sun is obscured by a passing cloud. Any and all attempts to manipulate that fearful resistance is just more fearful resistance and is why the situation is totally hopeless from the personal perspective. The fear factor is not something I'm aware of. I understand that maybe it takes a different form and I'm just not seeing it with my cloudy vision. To find fear: is there anything in your experience or about yourself that you are trying to control? Behind that effort to control is a fear. Best place to look might be at your goals and how you would feel if those goals were not met. You are a family man with a wife, any fearful dynamics there which might be dormant? Placating, people pleasing, avoidance behavior? For myself, I've got a very split mind right now. I'm way behind in my research and grading, and I'm perpetually trying to "fix" the situation by telling myself I'm going to do X, but X doesn't get done which popes fuel on the guilt and "I need to fix this" fire, repeat the cycle of creating a self-expectation and failing to make it, and more beating myself up.
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Post by topology on Apr 5, 2013 15:23:03 GMT -5
The fear factor is not something I'm aware of. I understand that maybe it takes a different form and I'm just not seeing it with my cloudy vision. To find fear: is there anything in your experience or about yourself that you are trying to control? Behind that effort to control is a fear. Best place to look might be at your goals and how you would feel if those goals were not met. You are a family man with a wife, any fearful dynamics there which might be dormant? Placating, people pleasing, avoidance behavior? For myself, I've got a very split mind right now. I'm way behind in my research and grading, and I'm perpetually trying to "fix" the situation by telling myself I'm going to do X, but X doesn't get done which pours fuel on the guilt and "I need to fix this" fire, repeat the cycle of creating a self-expectation and failing to make it, and more beating myself up. Popes = pours, phone autocorrect...
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Post by laughter on Apr 5, 2013 19:02:03 GMT -5
The fear factor is not something I'm aware of. I understand that maybe it takes a different form and I'm just not seeing it with my cloudy vision. To find fear: is there anything in your experience or about yourself that you are trying to control? Behind that effort to control is a fear. Best place to look might be at your goals and how you would feel if those goals were not met. You are a family man with a wife, any fearful dynamics there which might be dormant? Placating, people pleasing, avoidance behavior? For myself, I've got a very split mind right now. I'm way behind in my research and grading, and I'm perpetually trying to "fix" the situation by telling myself I'm going to do X, but X doesn't get done which popes fuel on the guilt and "I need to fix this" fire, repeat the cycle of creating a self-expectation and failing to make it, and more beating myself up. Finally getting 'round to my taxes, which are always a bear 'cause of the situation ... it's always a question of momentum. Always.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2013 19:15:33 GMT -5
The intention and effort made to ATA must fall away at some point Actually, what happens eventually is that the one who was imagined to be ATA'ing is seen through, and then it doesn't matter what is happening. Who has seen through it? Who doesn't it matter to anymore?Who realised this?I say it collapsed when an individual mindfully examines and chooses to let it collapse, and a new thought is constructd in it's place. This new thought is,"There is no self, this is not a thought it's it the actual truth of reality."There is now the imagination that there in neither twoness or oneness.There is simply washing dishes, plus a person either washing them, or someone watching dishes being washed. There is simply mowing the lawn, plus a person either mowing the lawn, or someone watching lawn being mowed. There is simply having dinner with friends, and a person that has something called friends or a person watching someone having dinner with people they call friends. There is simply going to work, plus the person doing the work or someone watching a person do work. Separation still exists, there is still a mind/body interacting within the dimension called physical reality. All that has occurred in the person has mentally disassociated from their own actions. "That's not me mowing the lawn, that's lawn being mowed", or "That's not me mowing the lawn, that's lawn being mowed by a mind/body."Who's body? Becomes obvious to who? How is something judged to be obvious? So killing people is a perfect way to live and if you have issues with killing people you're the one who's messed up, not the people who are killing others? If all of life is perfect as it is, then why did the sage tell the enquirer to shutup? What problem does the sage have with inquiries other than the obvious they don't like their beliefs, their imagined reality, their illusory world challenged? If life is perfect as it is, then if you get a flat tire, you would not rectify the situation.
Perfect: - conforming absolutely to the description or definition of an ideal type. - excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement. - exactly fitting the need in a certain situation or for a certain purpose. - entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings. - accurate, exact, or correct in every detail: a perfect copy.
And who is a sage in this theoretical realm where no one exists?Who is existing in time? Seen though by who? Who's imagination?Who's imagination? Who is a sage who is less associated to imagination? Who are these people who are more associated with imagination?Who is a sage, and why is there the separation of a sage and truth in the theoretical realm of no separation? This sage who is is content with life however it manifests, acts appropriately, and is no longer jerked around by fantasies and other machinations of mind.. is this the same sage that told the enquirer to shutup?Yet nonduality is a mind created "complex layered abstraction." It is the exact opposite of duality...just another mind created theory created by a person as they try to mindfully reason to make sense of existence.Who observes and reasons that the "imagined controller" has vanished?If there is enjoyment, that is mental activity to judge there is enjoyment. If there is observation, that is mental activity to judge there is observation. If there is no person existing in that situation, there is no observing or feeings, there is no one to sense and express these sensations. Who is this sage in the theoretical realm where no one exists who is listening to another person's enquiry and the sage thinks about what was asked and responds with a smile?
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