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Post by topology on Apr 4, 2013 17:09:29 GMT -5
How do you plan on getting to know your true nature? Is this on a personal level (authentic self) or impersonal level (what am I)? At the personal level I feel like I've done enough. It's good to know things like what do I get emotionally triggered by, what conditioning I carry around, etc. That makes sense at a practical day to day interacting with people and the world level. Sure, I could know more etc, but I've run out of interest in it. It's knowing true nature at the impersonal level that I'm after. My plan at this stage is largely based around the idea that "I" can't make it happen, but I can make myself accident prone, and that I need to "come empty" into the process. So that involves formal meditation practice, ATA outside of that, bit of reading (mainly this forum), listening to SIG weekly meetings, interacting with people (Rose's 3 rungs of the ladder). Since you do not know your true nature at an impersonal level, is the process of learning it additive or subtractive? Warning: the above question is a setup Answer this question as well: I am not happy with how my life is going because _______ (fill in the blank)
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Post by earnest on Apr 4, 2013 17:17:26 GMT -5
To really see the conditioning clearly, is to then transcend it. Beliefs don't survive our seeing through them. Yeah I think there is some truth in that. I dunno for sure though. I can't say with any degree of certainty where you're actually at in all this, but I see many who want to essentially 'jump the track' and understand 'true nature at the impersonal level', when they've still yet to see through all the personal stuff. The impersonal is realized through the releasing of attachment to the personal. I can’t say much either about where I’m at with it. I think there is truth in your comment about wanting to jump the track. John Wellwood talks about “spiritual bypassing” which has been mentioned around here before. I think if you come into this as a way of avoiding (consciously or not) all the personal stuff it’s not really going to go anywhere. I think you can make friends with the personal stuff though (eg Milarepa and the demons in his cave). I think I’m just prattling on now… When our conditioning's got us by the short & curlies, there's no such thing as 'coming empty.' Yeah I don’t think I can come entirely empty. I wonder what would happen if I could/did? For me in the coming empty there is an acknowledgement that I’m coming as empty as I can. Or maybe better said as “coming as I am”, warts and all, open and raw. That coming empty reminds me of this (from the movie Thin Red Line) That still brings tears to my eyes. For me the translation is not so important (below anyway), but for me it embodies that coming empty/open/as I am. Translation Jesus you hold my hands You take my heart from me Yeah I will I will cry out for Him (Jesus) Jesus I cry for you Jesus what you did for him, I believe I know it shall come Come now with grace I will see, I trust in thee Jesus you will come now I know Come Jesus, I believe, Yeah I trust
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Post by earnest on Apr 4, 2013 17:28:08 GMT -5
Since you do not know your true nature at an impersonal level, is the process of learning it additive or subtractive? Warning: the above question is a setup Heh,. set ups Subtractive. Not this, not this, not this. Answer this question as well: I am not happy with how my life is going because _______ (fill in the blank) My initial response is that there is nothing I can put in the blank spot. There is one thing that I want, knowing true nature, but I'm increasingly ok if that doesn't come to pass (the between-ness stuff), yet I keep working away at it. I'm off to clean the house, I'll leave that question running in the background and see what pops up.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2013 17:33:32 GMT -5
I can’t say much either about where I’m at with it. ... really 'open' by the sounds of it. No better to place to be than that in my estimation. Yes, I very much agree. There are those who want to bypass the personal stuff due to a need to avoid it....an effort I'm guessing to avoid that messy & uncomfy emotional stuff. And yeah... It is a very different thing that that natural 'running it's course' business, you spoke of earlier. Hmmm......Interesting enough, that level of open honesty you display in admitting that so easily goes a long way to suggesting that you may actually be coming pretty darned empty. I like that. Very nice...& Yup....tearjerker stuff for sure.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2013 18:43:07 GMT -5
Since you do not know your true nature at an impersonal level, is the process of learning it additive or subtractive? why do you presuppose that he does not know?
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Post by enigma on Apr 4, 2013 19:31:41 GMT -5
Vezzy interesting,.. Zakly, and it's actually good news cuz it takes waiting for God's Grace out of the equation and puts the problem back in the individual mind where it actually is. This is different to how I thought things worked. I thought it was along the lines of : - struggle struggle struggle - surrender - God's Grace - job done So there is the potential for anybody to 'change their mind' at any time and notice what in blazes is really going on. From that perspective, the difficulty is not really that there is nobody here to realize something, which is just another justification of the unwillingness to notice. It's a bit more insidious than that. Most minds function unconsciously, saying we want one thing and actually wanting another. Saying we want to know the truth while maneuvering every which way to prevent precisely that from happening. This is why 'becoming conscious' is so important. It's a tricky thing for unconsciousness to become conscious. The practice of being present is not the same as being present. We are always being present, so obviously the practice is something else. It's a purposeful non-abidance in mind. It's mostly a split mind game and i don't necessarily encourage it, just explaining it. So this non-abidance in mind is ATA? Yes, I think ZD would agree with that. No, the moment you say you want something you're abiding in mind again. By definition, it will eliminate the mental gymnastics if you can do it. If you can, there's no problem, also by definition. If you can't then purposefully weakening the mental gymnastics is what is called for. How that happens is by seeing through our self created illusions, and I say that happens by becoming conscious and noticing what in blazes is actually going on.
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Post by enigma on Apr 4, 2013 19:44:38 GMT -5
The practice of being present is not the same as being present. We are always being present, so obviously the practice is something else. It's a purposeful non-abidance in mind. It's mostly a split mind game and i don't necessarily encourage it, just explaining it. So the mind is explaining how the practice of being present is a split mind game?? So what sees this mind doing the splaining, would that also be another mind? It's kind of like the mind conceptualizing it's conceptualizations and thinking that it's doing if from outside of it's conceptualizations. I mean why can't thought be seen as thought instead of imagining there's something behind that seeing that can be thought about? There IS something being thought about. Right now I'm thinkin about how you're about to go all Neo on me again.
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Post by topology on Apr 4, 2013 19:54:15 GMT -5
Since you do not know your true nature at an impersonal level, is the process of learning it additive or subtractive? why do you presuppose that he does not know? He said he didn't by saying he wanted to know it. I'm not presupposing if i'm repeating what he said.
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Post by topology on Apr 4, 2013 19:56:05 GMT -5
Since you do not know your true nature at an impersonal level, is the process of learning it additive or subtractive? Warning: the above question is a setup Heh,. set ups Subtractive. Not this, not this, not this. Answer this question as well: I am not happy with how my life is going because _______ (fill in the blank) My initial response is that there is nothing I can put in the blank spot. There is one thing that I want, knowing true nature, but I'm increasingly ok if that doesn't come to pass (the between-ness stuff), yet I keep working away at it. I'm off to clean the house, I'll leave that question running in the background and see what pops up. What is being subtracted? Would you be seeking to know your true nature if you were perfectly happy?
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Post by silence on Apr 4, 2013 20:18:32 GMT -5
By definition, it will eliminate the mental gymnastics if you can do it. If you can, there's no problem, also by definition. If you can't then purposefully weakening the mental gymnastics is what is called for. How that happens is by seeing through our self created illusions, and I say that happens by becoming conscious and noticing what in blazes is actually going on. Right. If I go up to someone staring at some birds intensely and I ask them why they're doing this and they tell me they're "ATA'ing", I would be inclined to ask why. If the answer, the real answer is about this activity creating or causing or altering their experience in some way there is self deception happening. This is mind purposefully going into low gear, temporarily shutting down overt thinking because it's thought that doing so will get it what it wants. This is mental gymnastics and THAT should be addressed rather than making bird watching into a full time activity. If on the other hand there is a natural inclination to let go to various degrees for various amounts of time and soak in what's going on outside of imagination, there is no issue. Tapping into that inclination more and more is like opening the veil and letting some light into the sanitorium.
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Post by silence on Apr 4, 2013 20:20:24 GMT -5
So the mind is explaining how the practice of being present is a split mind game?? So what sees this mind doing the splaining, would that also be another mind? It's kind of like the mind conceptualizing it's conceptualizations and thinking that it's doing if from outside of it's conceptualizations. I mean why can't thought be seen as thought instead of imagining there's something behind that seeing that can be thought about? There IS something being thought about. Right now I'm thinkin about how you're about to go all Neo on me again. I actually laughed out loud.
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Post by laughter on Apr 4, 2013 20:58:01 GMT -5
By definition, it will eliminate the mental gymnastics if you can do it. If you can, there's no problem, also by definition. If you can't then purposefully weakening the mental gymnastics is what is called for. How that happens is by seeing through our self created illusions, and I say that happens by becoming conscious and noticing what in blazes is actually going on. Right. If I go up to someone staring at some birds intensely and I ask them why they're doing this and they tell me they're "ATA'ing", I would be inclined to ask why. If the answer, the real answer is about this activity creating or causing or altering their experience in some way there is self deception happening. This is mind purposefully going into low gear, temporarily shutting down overt thinking because it's thought that doing so will get it what it wants. This is mental gymnastics and THAT should be addressed rather than making bird watching into a full time activity. If on the other hand there is a natural inclination to let go to various degrees for various amounts of time and soak in what's going on outside of imagination, there is no issue. Tapping into that inclination more and more is like opening the veil and letting some light into the sanitorium. Maybe maybe not to the bold, which is what I think you're conveying as a whole here ... A sailor on a one-person boat can tell you the names of each of the ropes if you interrupt her as she tries to catch the wind but she doesn't use those names in the dance. Moments like this are plethora and just because some people have read or heard about this whole complex of ideas about reality doesn't change that although the natural inclination once the candle is lit might shift from bird watching to sitting with the eyes closed and watching the breath. Not every moment spent this way will be with a clear mind, a heightened set of senses and a distorted sense of time but in those moments when that is the case the state of mind is such that perhaps one of these realizations that you and E constantly drone on about are less obscured. (** looks around puzzledly for the location of leather trenchcoat **)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2013 21:38:08 GMT -5
So the mind is explaining how the practice of being present is a split mind game?? So what sees this mind doing the splaining, would that also be another mind? It's kind of like the mind conceptualizing it's conceptualizations and thinking that it's doing if from outside of it's conceptualizations. I mean why can't thought be seen as thought instead of imagining there's something behind that seeing that can be thought about? There IS something being thought about. Right now I'm thinkin about how you're about to go all Neo on me again. I would say that in my experience thoughts are known to arise. But what is known about the something that thoughts refer to? You have a thought about me going all Neo on you. But what do you actually know beyond the thought?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2013 21:57:58 GMT -5
By definition, it will eliminate the mental gymnastics if you can do it. If you can, there's no problem, also by definition. If you can't then purposefully weakening the mental gymnastics is what is called for. How that happens is by seeing through our self created illusions, and I say that happens by becoming conscious and noticing what in blazes is actually going on. Right. If I go up to someone staring at some birds intensely and I ask them why they're doing this and they tell me they're "ATA'ing", I would be inclined to ask why. If the answer, the real answer is about this activity creating or causing or altering their experience in some way there is self deception happening. This is mind purposefully going into low gear, temporarily shutting down overt thinking because it's thought that doing so will get it what it wants. This is mental gymnastics and THAT should be addressed rather than making bird watching into a full time activity. If on the other hand there is a natural inclination to let go to various degrees for various amounts of time and soak in what's going on outside of imagination, there is no issue. Tapping into that inclination more and more is like opening the veil and letting some light into the sanitorium. I think that if I came upon someone staring at some birds and asked them what they were doing and they said that they were having a natural inclination to let go to various degrees for various amounts of time and soak in what's going on outside of imagination... I must surely be in a sanatorium because they're obviously not bird watching...
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Post by Beingist on Apr 4, 2013 22:12:13 GMT -5
There IS something being thought about. Right now I'm thinkin about how you're about to go all Neo on me again. I would say that in my experience thoughts are known to arise. But what is known about the something that thoughts refer to? You have a thought about me going all Neo on you. But what do you actually know beyond the thought? Now, there's a thought.
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