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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2013 13:02:45 GMT -5
Greetings.. I have never met enigma before, though i think i have some alternative views of paradox than the ones i have read here. Hi MG: enigma was Phroggy at SF.. were you there during his evangelizing of SF? Ah, if memory serves correct, i never had the pleasure of interacting with Phroggy @ SF, so i cannot tell if i was there at the same time he was.
The only "evangelists" i am aware of during my time there is Xan, and the small number of her fellow "don't think, thinking is bad " woo wooists...woowoozerz...woowoozles.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2013 13:16:26 GMT -5
Greetings.. hey tzu, pull a bill out of your pocket ... its right there on the paper .. e pluribus unum ... "One from many" ;D Or .. the tao that can be named is not the eternal tao do you really contend that the eternal is other than One? Who cares, really.. seriously, who cares and why? there is the continuous infinite moment of 'now' happening.. aside from being fully present for this experience, who care about 'nonduality', manyness, Tao, oneness, yada, yada, yada.. get out of the brain-game, get in the real experience of existing.. "Be Here Now".. No, i'm not interested in anybody's 'belief system', that's another distraction.. tell me what you experience, not what you believe 'about' the experience... look at the distraction of Oneness, nonduality, etc.. pages of beliefs.. pffft, waste.. Be well.. No one but you calls it a "belief". It was meant as conversation only, which some can do civilly, others not as well. My current experience is writing a note to a grumpy old man. ;D
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Post by silver on Jan 20, 2013 13:19:33 GMT -5
Greetings.. Who cares, really.. seriously, who cares and why? there is the continuous infinite moment of 'now' happening.. aside from being fully present for this experience, who care about 'nonduality', manyness, Tao, oneness, yada, yada, yada.. get out of the brain-game, get in the real experience of existing.. "Be Here Now".. No, i'm not interested in anybody's 'belief system', that's another distraction.. tell me what you experience, not what you believe 'about' the experience... look at the distraction of Oneness, nonduality, etc.. pages of beliefs.. pffft, waste.. Be well.. No one but you calls it a "belief". It was meant as conversation only, which some can do civilly, others not as well. My current experience is writing a note to a grumpy old man. ;D At least he's got some company here.
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Post by laughter on Jan 20, 2013 13:48:48 GMT -5
MG ... is the paradox discussion one you've had with Enigma elsewhere? I have never met enigma before, though i think i have some alternative views of paradox than the ones i have read here.My perspective on paradox is that there is really only one worth noticing and discussing. It can be expressed in a myriad of ways, and it is worth noticing and discussing because it is an expression of a limit, a demarcation, past which mind can't and, and I speculate, is likely to ever go. The paradox puts the mind on notice of what the mind isn't. This fits many definitions of the word "mind" ... don't know if it can apply to any and all though.
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Post by laughter on Jan 20, 2013 13:51:23 GMT -5
hey tzu, pull a bill out of your pocket ... its right there on the paper .. e pluribus unum ... "One from many" ;D ;D
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Post by silence on Jan 20, 2013 15:24:56 GMT -5
Stop thinking, BE the experience. Be well.. Greetings.. What follows is a rambling description of my understanding of ‘Mind’, and I am giving fair warning that it is difficult to follow. My hope is that I might inspire exploration of the Mind through shared understandings. Somewhere in this mess of words I have tried to explain a process that has brilliantly revealed itself to ‘me’ in a way that removed all conflicts and all unresolved questions in my relationships with Life. If there is fault in the message, it is in my skill at presenting it, not in the process being presented. First, I understand that most of what I refer to as ‘what I know’, is what I ‘believe’, it’s what I hold as ‘true’ unless or until more conclusive information reveals those beliefs to be inaccurate or inadequate, this I refer to as ‘understanding’. I understand that this mind-body organism experiences information from sensory input, and I do not limit sensory input to the five physical senses, I hold insight, intuition, and energetic awareness as equal in the process of experiencing information, and by interactive communion, as ‘that’ which the information references. Among my conclusions, what stands out as undeniable, notwithstanding deep ideological inclinations to contradict it, is this: That Mind is the naturally existent and inherent medium upon and through which all of the experience of existence is made known.. further, that any form of communication requires the natural functions of Mind to complete the conveyance of words, ideas, concepts, and experiences from one being to another, or.. between multiple beings and the cooperative expansion of their collective Mind, even if the collective reference relates to even two or three beings cooperating in a way that achieves more than could be achieved individually. The word, ‘mind’, is sometimes demonized for its less desirable qualities, and praised for its more desirable qualities, and there is a tendency among ‘Spiritual’ groups to discount ‘Mind’s necessary role in the fundamental process of existing and ‘Being’. What I have come to believe (see previous paragraph), is that mind is similar to consciousness and awareness, in that it arises mutually and in proportion with the organization of biological energetic structures. Mind is more closely related to consciousness, in that consciousness is the fabric of mind’s existence, while awareness is the vehicle of mind’s information acquisition. I have investigated much of the formal reasonings about mind, and I have concluded, rightly or wrongly, that the contending and competing perspectives about mind are too convoluted and self-serving to be reconciled by my own mind, so.. I have studied mind from an observer’s perspective, listening to people’s use of the word and their understandings of Mind, and.. I also listen to my own mind’s understandings of its own processes. I also gave myself permission to fail, to make mistakes, to misunderstand, and to continue intending to understand. And, what has served my intentions well, is that I scrutinize my own beliefs and understandings, I sincerely try to find fault with the beliefs and understandings I accept as consistent with ‘what is so’.. so that what is left within my understandings has been scrutinized far more intensely than acceptable behavior allows me to scrutinize others.. I have concluded that my understanding of mind, what I believe about mind, is that mind is a medium common to all perception, awareness, experiences, imagination, reasoning, recollecting, and cognitive processes, and it is upon and through such medium that ‘that which is’ is made known in relation to itself (self-awareness). Mind is infinite and isolated at the same time, allowing for that which ‘is’ to utilize mind according to its intention, as an independently functioning ‘part’ of the infinite, and/or as ‘all’ of the eternal infinite, for exploring its own existence. Mind allows for isolated ‘parts’ of its wholeness to experience privacy as different ‘unique patterns’ of the same essence, like the unique snowflakes that are all the same essence of water. In this way, ‘that which is’ senses and perceives its existence in the same medium, mind, as the ‘isolated parts’ of itself experiences their freely interactive experiences with other ‘parts’, and with the part’s inherent awareness of itself as ‘that which is’, too.. a functional equality, as necessary to be true to your own experience of ‘You’.. What is brilliant about this relationship between the collective Whole (‘that which is’) and the unique individually functioning ‘parts’ of itself (which ‘is’, too), is the common medium of mind, where part and whole interact and ‘feel’ their inherent relationship through experiencing each other’s perceptions of existing. This ‘Mind’, as the medium within which all things are made known, is a curiously malleable and supple substance, taking the shape of its closest and most dominant influence, which is usually the intersection of perception and belief. Semi permanent shapes within the mind, usually the individualized ‘part’, are sometimes referred to and experienced as beliefs, rigid structures that are a bit like rocks in a stream, as they distort the flow of understanding into identifiable textures, ripples, and rapids. Equally acknowledged, are the beliefs that create harmony, like the beliefs that alert us to danger, or that remind us of necessary activities for our well-being, or that counsel us of our relationship with the continuum of Life. What is impressive, from my perspective, is the omnipresence of ‘mind’. Mind acts as the interface between all individualized aspects of Wholeness and between those individualized aspects and their collective Wholeness, regardless of whether the reference to ‘collective’ applies to the perspective of the Whole perceiving the many, or the many perceiving the Whole. The same function of mind figures out how to communicate between different languages of people’s understandings, as it figures out the language of emotion or the language of insight and intuition which are communications between “part and whole”, exploring their common evolution through the common medium of mind. Everything experienced and everything known, is made known through the mind’s capacity for organizing information, understanding consequences, and choosing from potential results. What is not often discussed are the mechanisms for acquiring information, and the functionality of the mechanisms. Mind, as the common medium of understanding, depends on information that it arranges as directed by the parameters established by ‘You’, either as the individuality, or as the collective (‘You’ are both, choosing your current perspective by where you apply your awareness). As the collective, your parameters are so broadly distributed as to include everything, and as the individuality your parameters vary widely depending on the individual’s understanding and awareness. In either case, the parameters are evident as ‘beliefs’, structures shaped by mind’s self-awareness and self-imagery, and arranged to affect how information is organized, how it is understood, and how potential results are chosen to perpetuate the belief structure. So, i have presented the mind.. as the interface through which all of Life and existence is made known to and between each of us individually, and.. as each of us, individually, experience Life from our individual perspectives, our individualized function of Mind translates our experiences into the energy of ‘feeling’, the common language of Life, individually or collectively, so that.. in the instant of ‘Now happening’, the collective Mind ‘feels’ every detail of Life in every perspective of the individual perceivers, as an Energetic Symphony of frequencies and vibrations.. and, at that same instant every individual has total access to and with the totality of the ‘Mind of the Cosmos’, the collective consciousness.. this access is dependent on the ability to ‘feel’ the stillness of the individual Mind, in which there is the clarity to experience ‘what is’.. the individual Mind’s active attention to its local environment is like the activity on the surface of the Cosmic pool of awareness, it distorts the perception of what is below the surface, it distorts the perspectives of the depths of understanding.. This Mind is like a movie screen where on one side the energy of physical existence is projected onto it, and.. on the other side, the energy of an intangible collective Cosmic Wholeness is projected onto it.. individually and collectively, we ‘know’ Life and existence through the shared medium of this common Mind.. we will focus on small sections of the ‘movie screen’ on the side of the screen we favor, and our beliefs will wrinkle and distort the screen’s smooth potential for clarity, or.. we will allow calm stillness to provide the smooth translucent Mind’s awareness to realize.. that the two sides of the Mind’s ‘movie screen’ integrate both sides into a seamless Whole, two sides of the same awareness.. And, we/us/Life are that Mind’s exploration of itself as it translates the unknown into the known .. I warned you, and.. if you read all of this with an open mind, you have my respect, even if you disagree.. but, lets explore the Mind’s role in this experience of Life, I understand that it is essential and indispensible.. Be well.. Why not just drop the act?
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Post by enigma on Jan 20, 2013 15:39:12 GMT -5
I never had a problem with your 'spitting'. I was just talking about what I saw. Well i assumed you had a problem with it, in that i interpret your word usage that you consider spitting at others is unacceptable behavior. I back up my conclusion as i too consider spitting on others is norty as i imagine most folk would also think this.
So for future reference, when you speak about something you see me doing, I don't have to do anything different? Or at least till i get a basic understanding of you, if you could specify if you have a complaint or compliment regarding something you see about me or you are just letting me know what you see, as i find it odd that a person would say something about me just for the sake of saying it with no motive for doing so other that letting me know what they see. If you actually have a problem with anything about me, i am all ears. "I'm all ears"..haha, what a funny saying.
Hypomathematical:
Enigma: Hey M-G, i see you have brown hair. M-G: Yes, yes i do, why, do you have problem with me having brown hair? Enigma: No. M-G: Are you saying this because you like my brown hair? Enigma: No. M-G: So you are expressing to me you see i have brown hair just to let me know you can see i have brown hair? Enigma: Yes. M-G: How odd, interestingly odd.
What a hell it would be if I said things about peeps in hopes that they would change their behavior. Spitting was a very casual term (I know casual word usage is not a good thingy for an intellectual) for the consistent and unprovoked denigration of the general understanding/beliefs of the membership here. If there were some significant truth to it, I might agree and think you were pointing out the dynamics as an exploration of the truth of the matter, as I do when i talk of you spitting, but mostly I just see confusion about what is being seen, and the spitting comes from that confusion. 'Spitting', in this case, implies a motivation toward value judgment rather than discernment, and so it seems to warrant pointing out. The pointing out is part of an exploration of what's actually going on, and while I can see where it may not have occurred to you that this could be a valid reason for participating in a spiritual forum, it's quite a common understanding here. I see how you searched through all possible motivations for my comment, from my need to change your behavior to my need to let you know what I see, and never did you stumble across the idea that I may be talking about what I see as true because I see it as being true. How interestingly odd.
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2013 15:39:36 GMT -5
Stop thinking, BE the experience. Be well.. Greetings.. What follows is a rambling description of my understanding of ‘Mind’, and I am giving fair warning that it is difficult to follow. My hope is that I might inspire exploration of the Mind through shared understandings. Somewhere in this mess of words I have tried to explain a process that has brilliantly revealed itself to ‘me’ in a way that removed all conflicts and all unresolved questions in my relationships with Life. If there is fault in the message, it is in my skill at presenting it, not in the process being presented. First, I understand that most of what I refer to as ‘what I know’, is what I ‘believe’, it’s what I hold as ‘true’ unless or until more conclusive information reveals those beliefs to be inaccurate or inadequate, this I refer to as ‘understanding’. I understand that this mind-body organism experiences information from sensory input, and I do not limit sensory input to the five physical senses, I hold insight, intuition, and energetic awareness as equal in the process of experiencing information, and by interactive communion, as ‘that’ which the information references. Among my conclusions, what stands out as undeniable, notwithstanding deep ideological inclinations to contradict it, is this: That Mind is the naturally existent and inherent medium upon and through which all of the experience of existence is made known.. further, that any form of communication requires the natural functions of Mind to complete the conveyance of words, ideas, concepts, and experiences from one being to another, or.. between multiple beings and the cooperative expansion of their collective Mind, even if the collective reference relates to even two or three beings cooperating in a way that achieves more than could be achieved individually. The word, ‘mind’, is sometimes demonized for its less desirable qualities, and praised for its more desirable qualities, and there is a tendency among ‘Spiritual’ groups to discount ‘Mind’s necessary role in the fundamental process of existing and ‘Being’. What I have come to believe (see previous paragraph), is that mind is similar to consciousness and awareness, in that it arises mutually and in proportion with the organization of biological energetic structures. Mind is more closely related to consciousness, in that consciousness is the fabric of mind’s existence, while awareness is the vehicle of mind’s information acquisition. I have investigated much of the formal reasonings about mind, and I have concluded, rightly or wrongly, that the contending and competing perspectives about mind are too convoluted and self-serving to be reconciled by my own mind, so.. I have studied mind from an observer’s perspective, listening to people’s use of the word and their understandings of Mind, and.. I also listen to my own mind’s understandings of its own processes. I also gave myself permission to fail, to make mistakes, to misunderstand, and to continue intending to understand. And, what has served my intentions well, is that I scrutinize my own beliefs and understandings, I sincerely try to find fault with the beliefs and understandings I accept as consistent with ‘what is so’.. so that what is left within my understandings has been scrutinized far more intensely than acceptable behavior allows me to scrutinize others.. I have concluded that my understanding of mind, what I believe about mind, is that mind is a medium common to all perception, awareness, experiences, imagination, reasoning, recollecting, and cognitive processes, and it is upon and through such medium that ‘that which is’ is made known in relation to itself (self-awareness). Mind is infinite and isolated at the same time, allowing for that which ‘is’ to utilize mind according to its intention, as an independently functioning ‘part’ of the infinite, and/or as ‘all’ of the eternal infinite, for exploring its own existence. Mind allows for isolated ‘parts’ of its wholeness to experience privacy as different ‘unique patterns’ of the same essence, like the unique snowflakes that are all the same essence of water. In this way, ‘that which is’ senses and perceives its existence in the same medium, mind, as the ‘isolated parts’ of itself experiences their freely interactive experiences with other ‘parts’, and with the part’s inherent awareness of itself as ‘that which is’, too.. a functional equality, as necessary to be true to your own experience of ‘You’.. What is brilliant about this relationship between the collective Whole (‘that which is’) and the unique individually functioning ‘parts’ of itself (which ‘is’, too), is the common medium of mind, where part and whole interact and ‘feel’ their inherent relationship through experiencing each other’s perceptions of existing. This ‘Mind’, as the medium within which all things are made known, is a curiously malleable and supple substance, taking the shape of its closest and most dominant influence, which is usually the intersection of perception and belief. Semi permanent shapes within the mind, usually the individualized ‘part’, are sometimes referred to and experienced as beliefs, rigid structures that are a bit like rocks in a stream, as they distort the flow of understanding into identifiable textures, ripples, and rapids. Equally acknowledged, are the beliefs that create harmony, like the beliefs that alert us to danger, or that remind us of necessary activities for our well-being, or that counsel us of our relationship with the continuum of Life. What is impressive, from my perspective, is the omnipresence of ‘mind’. Mind acts as the interface between all individualized aspects of Wholeness and between those individualized aspects and their collective Wholeness, regardless of whether the reference to ‘collective’ applies to the perspective of the Whole perceiving the many, or the many perceiving the Whole. The same function of mind figures out how to communicate between different languages of people’s understandings, as it figures out the language of emotion or the language of insight and intuition which are communications between “part and whole”, exploring their common evolution through the common medium of mind. Everything experienced and everything known, is made known through the mind’s capacity for organizing information, understanding consequences, and choosing from potential results. What is not often discussed are the mechanisms for acquiring information, and the functionality of the mechanisms. Mind, as the common medium of understanding, depends on information that it arranges as directed by the parameters established by ‘You’, either as the individuality, or as the collective (‘You’ are both, choosing your current perspective by where you apply your awareness). As the collective, your parameters are so broadly distributed as to include everything, and as the individuality your parameters vary widely depending on the individual’s understanding and awareness. In either case, the parameters are evident as ‘beliefs’, structures shaped by mind’s self-awareness and self-imagery, and arranged to affect how information is organized, how it is understood, and how potential results are chosen to perpetuate the belief structure. So, i have presented the mind.. as the interface through which all of Life and existence is made known to and between each of us individually, and.. as each of us, individually, experience Life from our individual perspectives, our individualized function of Mind translates our experiences into the energy of ‘feeling’, the common language of Life, individually or collectively, so that.. in the instant of ‘Now happening’, the collective Mind ‘feels’ every detail of Life in every perspective of the individual perceivers, as an Energetic Symphony of frequencies and vibrations.. and, at that same instant every individual has total access to and with the totality of the ‘Mind of the Cosmos’, the collective consciousness.. this access is dependent on the ability to ‘feel’ the stillness of the individual Mind, in which there is the clarity to experience ‘what is’.. the individual Mind’s active attention to its local environment is like the activity on the surface of the Cosmic pool of awareness, it distorts the perception of what is below the surface, it distorts the perspectives of the depths of understanding.. This Mind is like a movie screen where on one side the energy of physical existence is projected onto it, and.. on the other side, the energy of an intangible collective Cosmic Wholeness is projected onto it.. individually and collectively, we ‘know’ Life and existence through the shared medium of this common Mind.. we will focus on small sections of the ‘movie screen’ on the side of the screen we favor, and our beliefs will wrinkle and distort the screen’s smooth potential for clarity, or.. we will allow calm stillness to provide the smooth translucent Mind’s awareness to realize.. that the two sides of the Mind’s ‘movie screen’ integrate both sides into a seamless Whole, two sides of the same awareness.. And, we/us/Life are that Mind’s exploration of itself as it translates the unknown into the known .. I warned you, and.. if you read all of this with an open mind, you have my respect, even if you disagree.. but, lets explore the Mind’s role in this experience of Life, I understand that it is essential and indispensible.. Be well.. Why not just drop the act? What exactly are you saying is the act?
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Post by enigma on Jan 20, 2013 15:49:22 GMT -5
Why not just drop the act? What exactly are you saying is the act? You have GOT to be kidding.........
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2013 15:57:51 GMT -5
What exactly are you saying is the act? You have GOT to be kidding......... I don't see an 'act', no.
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Post by tzujanli on Jan 20, 2013 19:10:52 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Who cares, really.. seriously, who cares and why? there is the continuous infinite moment of 'now' happening.. aside from being fully present for this experience, who care about 'nonduality', manyness, Tao, oneness, yada, yada, yada.. get out of the brain-game, get in the real experience of existing.. "Be Here Now".. No, i'm not interested in anybody's 'belief system', that's another distraction.. tell me what you experience, not what you believe 'about' the experience... look at the distraction of Oneness, nonduality, etc.. pages of beliefs.. pffft, waste.. Be well.. No one but you calls it a "belief". It was meant as conversation only, which some can do civilly, others not as well. My current experience is writing a note to a grumpy old man. ;D Hi Farmer: Sorry if you thought that was directed at 'you', it wasn't.. it was just the frustration of dealing with people that can't see their own issues while chiding others for the same issues they perceive in others.. When you say, " No one but you calls it a "belief".", what is 'it'? and, as a follow-up question, how can you be sure "no one but 'me' calls it a 'belief"? i'm not asking for the sake of arguing, i'm actually curious Be well..
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2013 20:05:08 GMT -5
Greetings.. Hi Farmer: Sorry if you thought that was directed at 'you', it wasn't.. it was just the frustration of dealing with people that can't see their own issues while chiding others for the same issues they perceive in others.. When you say, " No one but you calls it a "belief".", what is 'it'? and, as a follow-up question, how can you be sure "no one but 'me' calls it a 'belief"? i'm not asking for the sake of arguing, i'm actually curious Be well.. "It" being the words .. the expression. Surely you understand the difficulty of language, so just because something is said, that doesn't necessarily make it a "belief". Although repeatedly saying the same thing over and over again might indicate that a belief is being held. Which is why I think it is a good idea to question every thought that arises, to see if it is true or not. please excuse the earlier tone, was experiencing a little frustration myself
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Post by Reefs on Jan 20, 2013 20:30:51 GMT -5
Why not just drop the act? What exactly are you saying is the act? The act of telling others to stop thinking and just be while producing one wall of text after another, in short: Got it?
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Post by tzujanli on Jan 20, 2013 21:07:05 GMT -5
Greetings.. Stop thinking, BE the experience. Be well.. Why not just drop the act?I cannot stop your imagination, but 'you' can.. just suspend the thinking processes, see clearly.. then, you will see the absurdity of your request, there is no act to stop.. Be well..
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Post by tzujanli on Jan 20, 2013 21:14:48 GMT -5
Greetings.. What exactly are you saying is the act? The act of telling others to stop thinking and just be while producing one wall of text after another, in short: Got it? Oh, like your aggressive and abusive attitude.. brutish 'keyboard kommandos' are amusing, but of no use to anyone interested in understanding their own existence.. your 'act' is detrimental to sincere seekers, got it? Be well..
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