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Post by esponja on Dec 13, 2012 0:31:55 GMT -5
It's a position that I reckon a lot of people who get involved with listening and reading this type of material end up in. Midnight may be at the far end of the spectrum or he may have just been depressed for years and now a new focus has emerged to take over the last one. I've said it before, but I think a lot of people turn to spirituality as a last resort when everything else starts to fail. They start with feel good self talk and move through phases eventually arriving at people staring into cameras telling you you're the wave of the ocean. Skepticism eventually begins to melt away since so many people saying a similar thing must have "something" to it. Since what people call non-duality can actually make logical sense, a firm new belief system can be erected. The belief system is really the product of the same tunnel vision that got them interested in spirituality to begin with. That is, feel better at all costs. As soon as someone hears that all they have to do is notice there's no self and all their problems will melt away and/or bliss or whatever else will take its place, they charge ahead. It's the avoidance game through and through. The very reason why the seeking to feel better in the first place is happening is because various aspects have been thrust away, ignored, rejected and/or put into bad categories. There isn't some special non-duality secret that only the really lucky ones find to destroy their suffering. There literally is no substitute for being radically honest. For people looking for a quick fix it can be a long painful, "what the hell did I get myself into" journey through the labyrinth of mind playing both the role of the criminal and the police. The demolition man and the builder. As with any belief, especially one that flies in the face of your daily experience, it requires constant maintenance. The power that you hold is actually tremendous and truly ironic. How else could someone run around saying "I lost myself and I'm really upset about it!". Fixing it is an absurd notion on a much larger context where nothing is a problem. In another way, it's clearly problematic. If you want to approach it from that angle, it's merely a matter of being clear about the absurdity. There's the 10 million dollar question. That's where being clear about where you're looking from can be helpful. I did read all this too and yes agree with a lot of what you wrote. Personally I did get here following the self help route. There is a constant push/pull of the mind..don't want, don't want, don't want. So it can't be helped until one is taught about awareness (or comes to it naturally). Although I see what you're saying, mind plays countless games and it still seems to me that (and as you say above it may require constant maintenance as that's how it feels to me) the big 'belief' still has to somehow fall away, and until it does you're stuck playing games.
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Post by enigma on Dec 13, 2012 0:56:05 GMT -5
It's a position that I reckon a lot of people who get involved with listening and reading this type of material end up in. Midnight may be at the far end of the spectrum or he may have just been depressed for years and now a new focus has emerged to take over the last one. I've said it before, but I think a lot of people turn to spirituality as a last resort when everything else starts to fail. They start with feel good self talk and move through phases eventually arriving at people staring into cameras telling you you're the wave of the ocean. Skepticism eventually begins to melt away since so many people saying a similar thing must have "something" to it. Since what people call non-duality can actually make logical sense, a firm new belief system can be erected. The belief system is really the product of the same tunnel vision that got them interested in spirituality to begin with. That is, feel better at all costs. As soon as someone hears that all they have to do is notice there's no self and all their problems will melt away and/or bliss or whatever else will take its place, they charge ahead. It's the avoidance game through and through. The very reason why the seeking to feel better in the first place is happening is because various aspects have been thrust away, ignored, rejected and/or put into bad categories. There isn't some special non-duality secret that only the really lucky ones find to destroy their suffering. There literally is no substitute for being radically honest. For people looking for a quick fix it can be a long painful, "what the hell did I get myself into" journey through the labyrinth of mind playing both the role of the criminal and the police. The demolition man and the builder. As with any belief, especially one that flies in the face of your daily experience, it requires constant maintenance. The power that you hold is actually tremendous and truly ironic. How else could someone run around saying "I lost myself and I'm really upset about it!". Fixing it is an absurd notion on a much larger context where nothing is a problem. In another way, it's clearly problematic. If you want to approach it from that angle, it's merely a matter of being clear about the absurdity. There's the 10 million dollar question. That's where being clear about where you're looking from can be helpful. I did read all this too and yes agree with a lot of what you wrote. Personally I did get here following the self help route. There is a constant push/pull of the mind..don't want, don't want, don't want. So it can't be helped until one is taught about awareness (or comes to it naturally). Although I see what you're saying, mind plays countless games and it still seems to me that (and as you say above it may require constant maintenance as that's how it feels to me) the big 'belief' still has to somehow fall away, and until it does you're stuck playing games. There's no foundation for that 'big belief', and yet the belief remains. Why do you think that is? How do you think that can happen? Doesn't a belief have to rest on a solid foundation in order to be believed? Or does it?
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Post by esponja on Dec 13, 2012 1:33:18 GMT -5
I did read all this too and yes agree with a lot of what you wrote. Personally I did get here following the self help route. There is a constant push/pull of the mind..don't want, don't want, don't want. So it can't be helped until one is taught about awareness (or comes to it naturally). Although I see what you're saying, mind plays countless games and it still seems to me that (and as you say above it may require constant maintenance as that's how it feels to me) the big 'belief' still has to somehow fall away, and until it does you're stuck playing games. There's no foundation for that 'big belief', and yet the belief remains. Why do you think that is? How do you think that can happen? Doesn't a belief have to rest on a solid foundation in order to be believed? Or does it? E, when u write like this I have such clarity and just laugh...can u come and live with me now? Marie won't mind am sure!!!
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Post by enigma on Dec 13, 2012 1:55:06 GMT -5
There's no foundation for that 'big belief', and yet the belief remains. Why do you think that is? How do you think that can happen? Doesn't a belief have to rest on a solid foundation in order to be believed? Or does it? E, when u write like this I have such clarity and just laugh...can u come and live with me now? Marie won't mind am sure!!! Sure. I'm sure Marie will be fine with it. Hehe.
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Post by esponja on Dec 13, 2012 2:25:24 GMT -5
E, when u write like this I have such clarity and just laugh...can u come and live with me now? Marie won't mind am sure!!! Sure. I'm sure Marie will be fine with it. Hehe. Rent-an-Enigma
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Post by enigma on Dec 13, 2012 2:33:13 GMT -5
Sure. I'm sure Marie will be fine with it. Hehe. Rent-an-Enigma Could be an enigmatic experience.
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Post by sharon on Dec 13, 2012 4:21:57 GMT -5
I don't think you saw anything. I think you convinced yourself of something that seemed logically plausible. I think you did so for the same reason people go to satsangs. You thought you would get something. The problem is that you're now reaping the unbearably debilitating effects of such a belief. I'm listening. I don't know how I would have convinced myself of something to the point that I felt I was living in a dream though. I really dunno if I am that creative - and also, if I AM still doing it, why can't I just turn it off and feel like I am fully alive again??? I mean, if I have a headache, I'l just take some paracetemol and go about my day, If I am dissociated, why can't I just 'turn it off'? What do you think? Because you are the headache. You're clearly not, listening, you just want the internet to tell you what it thinks of your headache.
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Post by andrew on Dec 13, 2012 4:48:12 GMT -5
I don't think you saw anything. I think you convinced yourself of something that seemed logically plausible. I think you did so for the same reason people go to satsangs. You thought you would get something. The problem is that you're now reaping the unbearably debilitating effects of such a belief. I'm listening. I don't know how I would have convinced myself of something to the point that I felt I was living in a dream though. I really dunno if I am that creative - and also, if I AM still doing it, why can't I just turn it off and feel like I am fully alive again??? I mean, if I have a headache, I'l just take some paracetemol and go about my day, If I am dissociated, why can't I just 'turn it off'? What do you think? When we believe in the separate self, we look to drama for our sense of aliveness/connection. We need the ups and the downs, the thrills and the disappointments, the sense of beginnings and endings, the successes and the failures. We love the sense of outrage or wondering what will happen. We love the gossip of people being treated badly and other people being rewarded. We love problems! Soap operas are popular for a reason! It seems that you are no longer able to be like most people, and you are going to struggle to get a sense of aliveness/connection in the way that most people get it (through drama). If you want to be happy again, you have to find another source of aliveness/connection, and that source of aliveness/connection is within. You will most likely say that you have tried that, and I would believe you if you said that, but it does requires a certain level of commitment and sincerity, a willingness to genuinely take responsibility for our state of well being and happiness. It requires you to put to one side all your beliefs about disassociation and kundalini etc, and it also requires you to begin looking at your 'dharma'. What I mean, is instead of looking around at what everyone else is doing and thinking you should be doing that, to begin to look at your path in life, the direction you want to go and who you want to be. To look at your values and standards. None of this has happened to you as an accident. Its not a mistake. I reckon the reason you turned to Mooji in the first place is because intuitively you recognized that a 'normal' life wasn't what you wanted, that there was something more, something different to the way that most people live. You are not on the wrong path, its just a case right now of working your way through this phase. At some point you will pop out the other side much closer to being the person you have intuitively recognized yourself to be.
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Post by andrew on Dec 13, 2012 4:56:18 GMT -5
So in answer to your initial question Midnight, what is potentially liberating about no self, is that it enables us to turn away from conditioned parental/societal expectations and cultural norms and values, and to be who we really are. To follow our own authentic path. To be true to ourselves. In Osho's terms, he might say that it enables us to drop the personality and embrace our individuality.
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Post by sharon on Dec 13, 2012 6:11:40 GMT -5
It seems that you are no longer able to be like most people, and you are going to struggle to get a sense of aliveness/connection in the way that most people get it (through drama). If you want to be happy again, you have to find another source of aliveness/connection, and that source of aliveness/connection is within. It's a good point. I watch myself tune in playfully when there is gossip abound, and then I quickly sober up and realise that I'm about to have to remind someone of the inclusivity of all life. Yes the aliveness that Midnight used to seek is not desired anymore. Though his mind hasn't caught up with this yet. It still wants to plug into the world and it can't because he's cut the plug, and he's not walked all, the way back, to the one that did the cutting.
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Post by andrew on Dec 13, 2012 10:34:49 GMT -5
It seems that you are no longer able to be like most people, and you are going to struggle to get a sense of aliveness/connection in the way that most people get it (through drama). If you want to be happy again, you have to find another source of aliveness/connection, and that source of aliveness/connection is within. It's a good point. I watch myself tune in playfully when there is gossip abound, and then I quickly sober up and realise that I'm about to have to remind someone of the inclusivity of all life. Yes the aliveness that Midnight used to seek is not desired anymore. Though his mind hasn't caught up with this yet. It still wants to plug into the world and it can't because he's cut the plug, and he's not walked all, the way back, to the one that did the cutting. yes that's a good description
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Post by silver on Dec 13, 2012 12:28:51 GMT -5
Sure. I'm sure Marie will be fine with it. Hehe. Rent-an-Enigma No Deposit - No Return? or clone the E - cheaper by the dozen!
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Post by silence on Dec 13, 2012 16:27:10 GMT -5
I'm listening. I don't know how I would have convinced myself of something to the point that I felt I was living in a dream though. Anyone can convince themselves of anything. It's actually quite amazing. Feeling like you're living in a dream is actually quite a common statement. Different people interpret feeling like it's a dream in different ways though. I really dunno if I am that creative - and also, if I AM still doing it, why can't I just turn it off and feel like I am fully alive again??? Heh, you are indeed that creative. You're stuck in an avoidance pattern. The more you try to rid yourself of this that and the other thing, the more pronounced your dillema becomes. I'm willing to bet if you explored into this feeling of being lost in a dream that right beneath it would be a tremendous energy, a tremendous peace that perhaps you've been looking away from at all costs. When I say explore into it I don't mean with the intention of getting rid of it. I mean, if I have a headache, I'l just take some paracetemol and go about my day, If I am dissociated, why can't I just 'turn it off'? What do you think? You're dissociated because you've interpreted teachings to mean that you get to escape from life. You're being thrust back into realizing that it's the exact opposite even if it is at a snails pace kicking and screaming. You don't get to turn that off.
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Post by silence on Dec 13, 2012 16:36:49 GMT -5
Although I see what you're saying, mind plays countless games and it still seems to me that (and as you say above it may require constant maintenance as that's how it feels to me) the big 'belief' still has to somehow fall away, and until it does you're stuck playing games. Perhaps the big belief is actually about the idea that the spiritual journey you're on is going to make your life easy or some variation of that and less to do with a self falling away.
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Post by enigma on Dec 13, 2012 22:54:59 GMT -5
Although I see what you're saying, mind plays countless games and it still seems to me that (and as you say above it may require constant maintenance as that's how it feels to me) the big 'belief' still has to somehow fall away, and until it does you're stuck playing games. Perhaps the big belief is actually about the idea that the spiritual journey you're on is going to make your life easy or some variation of that and less to do with a self falling away. That's an excellent thought that hadn't occurred to me. If there's an expectation that life's problems will be solved by a loss of self, then it's noticed that the problems are still there, so the conclusion may be that the self apparently hasn't fallen away and that must be the problem. Meanwhile, the problems continue to be struggled with cuz, after all, the self is still hanging around. It's a self perpetuating game.
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