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Post by zendancer on May 29, 2012 9:12:30 GMT -5
I live in Tennessee which is in the United States. Coffee all over the place... ;D (Remember the movie- Top Gun, and how the pilots kept doing fly-by's on the carrier's flight tower, and how the Chief Flight Officer would spill coffee all over himself when they did the fly-by? ) ;D Ha ha. Yes, the point being made might seem silly, but it's not. ;D The Top Gun movie tower fly-by always reminds me of a particular day in 1968. On that day I rode behind a hot-shot AF pilot in an F-106, the old delta-winged ADC nuclear-armed interceptor. While we were flying at Mach 1 about 1000' above the ground in North Dakota leaving a sonic shock wave behind us, he suddenly pulled up on the stick, lifted the nose to vertical, and kicked in full afterburners to show me what it could do. The plane rocketed straight up to 44,000' before he pulled the nose down and leveled off. Afterwards, he pushed the stick straight forward, dived straight down, hit Mach 2 in the process, and helped me understand what causes fighter pilots to walk with a certain swagger. ;D |
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Post by enigma on May 29, 2012 10:27:38 GMT -5
Also, would anybody like to reply to the last post I made on page 4? Crikey, talk about making your reader work. You couldn't have included a reference? Hmm, hmm, scroll, scroll. Ok, you mean this one: Bottom line. The OP of this thread is ultimately a mental reaction to that which does not act or react. The reacting mind likes this passive non-reactiveness because of what it calls its inherent innocence, effortlessness, changelessness, choicelessness, peacefulness, perfection and completeness. Because the mind likes it, its next reaction is to point to it, and to be curious about the way other minds may react to it.
Going deeper, how might these minds react when they discover that this passive non-reactiveness is actually the eternal FACT of their entire existence, and so is what they TRUELY ARE? And scroll scroll work some more and...Ah. You, Stillness, are the OP of this thread. OK, now your post is starting to make sense. Hmm. Well what comes to mind for me is this: Everything that exists, changes. So this non-existant changeless thing you've got going on can only be a product of mind. Otherwise, how can you know anything about it? So that would suggest to me that your mind is a reaction to it's own creation. Like an Ouroboros. Nothing that changes actually exists in any fundamental way. There's the knowing of this change which is clearly more fundamental than anything observed to be changing. The only way you can know that something is changing is if you are not. It's a bit like riding in an elevator. Unless you're feeling the change in velocity as you speed up or slow down, you don't know that you are moving because you're experiencing the movement from within the movement. Experience, in the largest sense, is a movement. Life is a movement. The fact that you are experiencing this movement at all tells you that you are not moving. Whatever you are is not changing or you could not know change. Whatever you are is timeless, spaceless or you could not know time and space. You are prior to all knowledge or you could not know anything. |
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2012 10:38:36 GMT -5
Crikey, talk about making your reader work. You couldn't have included a reference? Hmm, hmm, scroll, scroll. Ok, you mean this one: And scroll scroll work some more and...Ah. You, Stillness, are the OP of this thread. OK, now your post is starting to make sense. Hmm. Well what comes to mind for me is this: Everything that exists, changes. So this non-existant changeless thing you've got going on can only be a product of mind. Otherwise, how can you know anything about it? So that would suggest to me that your mind is a reaction to it's own creation. Like an Ouroboros. Nothing that changes actually exists in any fundamental way. There's the knowing of this change which is clearly more fundamental than anything observed to be changing. The only way you can know that something is changing is if you are not. It's a bit like riding in an elevator. Unless you're feeling the change in velocity as you speed up or slow down, you don't know that you are moving because you're experiencing the movement from within the movement. Experience, in the largest sense, is a movement. Life is a movement. The fact that you are experiencing this movement at all tells you that you are not moving. Whatever you are is not changing or you could not know change. Whatever you are is timeless, spaceless or you could not know time and space. You are prior to all knowledge or you could not know anything. Isn't it more about the relative contrast between things that are changing? The teapot over there appears to be sitting on the stovetop, but actually that's because it and I are both hurtling through space at exactly the same rate and on the same vector. Stuff appears to me now but won't when there is no longer a sensory apparatus to take in the stimuli. |
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Post by andrew on May 29, 2012 10:44:19 GMT -5
Nothing that changes actually exists in any fundamental way. There's the knowing of this change which is clearly more fundamental than anything observed to be changing. The only way you can know that something is changing is if you are not. It's a bit like riding in an elevator. Unless you're feeling the change in velocity as you speed up or slow down, you don't know that you are moving because you're experiencing the movement from within the movement. Experience, in the largest sense, is a movement. Life is a movement. The fact that you are experiencing this movement at all tells you that you are not moving. Whatever you are is not changing or you could not know change. Whatever you are is timeless, spaceless or you could not know time and space. You are prior to all knowledge or you could not know anything. Isn't it more about the relative contrast between things that are changing? I think you might be right. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on May 29, 2012 11:41:49 GMT -5
Andrew has a jello-like quality to him that makes him hard to nail. ;D So I´ve noticed. haha Andology seems to be about hopping around from vine to vine as if actually going somewhere. |
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Post by living on May 29, 2012 12:38:35 GMT -5
Coffee all over the place... ;D (Remember the movie- Top Gun, and how the pilots kept doing fly-by's on the carrier's flight tower, and how the Chief Flight Officer would spill coffee all over himself when they did the fly-by? ) ;D Ha ha. Yes, the point being made might seem silly, but it's not. ;D The Top Gun movie tower fly-by always reminds me of a particular day in 1968. On that day I rode behind a hot-shot AF pilot in an F-106, the old delta-winged ADC nuclear-armed interceptor. While we were flying at Mach 1 about 1000' above the ground in North Dakota leaving a sonic shock wave behind us, he suddenly pulled up on the stick, lifted the nose to vertical, and kicked in full afterburners to show me what it could do. The plane rocketed straight up to 44,000' before he pulled the nose down and leveled off. Afterwards, he pushed the stick straight forward, dived straight down, hit Mach 2 in the process, and helped me understand what causes fighter pilots to walk with a certain swagger. ;D Sometimes the point blank truth does make me laugh at loud, as this one about states did. I used to think the journey was such a progressive linear-logical thing, and it was in the beginning, but the big AHA's never fit in that framework at all. You just have a knack for making me laugh about the simplicity at times. Question does, too. I would have barfed all over myself had I taken the ride you described. Incredible! |
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Post by zendancer on May 29, 2012 13:51:41 GMT -5
Ha ha. Yes, the point being made might seem silly, but it's not. ;D The Top Gun movie tower fly-by always reminds me of a particular day in 1968. On that day I rode behind a hot-shot AF pilot in an F-106, the old delta-winged ADC nuclear-armed interceptor. While we were flying at Mach 1 about 1000' above the ground in North Dakota leaving a sonic shock wave behind us, he suddenly pulled up on the stick, lifted the nose to vertical, and kicked in full afterburners to show me what it could do. The plane rocketed straight up to 44,000' before he pulled the nose down and leveled off. Afterwards, he pushed the stick straight forward, dived straight down, hit Mach 2 in the process, and helped me understand what causes fighter pilots to walk with a certain swagger. ;D Sometimes the point blank truth does make me laugh at loud, as this one about states did. I used to think the journey was such a progressive linear-logical thing, and it was in the beginning, but the big AHA's never fit in that framework at all. You just have a knack for making me laugh about the simplicity at times. Question does, too. I would have barfed all over myself had I taken the ride you described. Incredible! Yeah, Zen eschews abstraction (except in the few cases where abstraction is useful and necessary). If the mind stops spinning with intellectual nonsense, things become simple and obvious. The spiritual path is challenging because it can rev up the mind until it is spinning faster than usual. If attention is shifted away from thoughts to what can be seen or heard, or to inquiry, the mind loses its grip, so to speak. Silence engenders realizations that sequentially collapse thought structures until the truth becomes laughingly obvious. If someone were to ask me, "What is the meaning of YOUR life?" I would answer, "Typing this note to Living." If someone were to ask me, "What is the meaning of HUMAN life?" I would answer, "Typing this note to Living." If someone were to ask me, "What is the meaning of UNIVERSAL life?" I would answer, "Typing this note to Living." If someone were to ask me, "What is the meaning OF THE MEANING of life?" I would answer, "Typing this note to Living." Notice the different forms of abstraction in each of these questions. Zen calls these kinds of subtle abstractions "thought-hooks," and most koans contain them. The challenge is to remain calmly present, refuse the intellectual bait, and respond directly to the truth of "what is." Consider the koan, "If you meet a deeply enlightened woman on the path, how can you greet her with neither words nor silence?" There are two thought hooks in this koan. The first is "deeply enlightened woman." Each of these three words is designed to hook the mind and send it running off on a wild goose chase. Oh wow, a woman, and a deeply enlightened one at that. How rare! How could such a rare and unusual person be greeted correctly? The second mind hook is the double bind "with neither words nor silence." Gosh, what other choices are there? Ha ha. If we look through the words and don't let the abstractions paralyze us, we silently wave, or bow, or pantomine a hug, or blow a kiss, or pantomine shaking hands, or say "Hello." A great number of posts on this forum hook the mind and start it spinning, but what is most important? Staying stuck in the mind and spinning, or getting clear? How is clarity attained? By shifting attention away from thoughts to THIS. In this moment what can be seen, heard, felt, tasted, smelled, or sensed? What can be attended beyond any comment, distinction, evaluation, judgment, cognition, fantasy, reflection, assumption, imagining, .....ad infinitum? The Buddha once taught a parable on this subject. He said its like a man who gets shot with an arrow. The man begins asking where the arrow came from, who shot it, how it was made, etc. The Buddha asked his disciples, "What is more important, knowing a hundred things about the arrow or pulling it out?" Each person who comes to this forum would do well to keep this parable in mind. Knowing brings one no closer to the truth (no pun intended). Ideas, definitions, and intellectual understanding are useless here. Any thought of self, or thought of self-centered desire, or thought of self-progress, or thought of self attainment, or thought of self lack, or thought of resistance, or thought of acceptance, or thought of allowance, reinforces the idea that there is an entity "in here" separate from what is "out there." No such entity exists. To find the truth open-eyed not-knowing is the way. |
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Post by relinquish on May 29, 2012 14:48:15 GMT -5
Ohhh right!!!! hehe. Thank YOU for clarifying, Peter.  |
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Post by andrew on May 29, 2012 15:40:18 GMT -5
Crikey, talk about making your reader work. You couldn't have included a reference? Hmm, hmm, scroll, scroll. Ok, you mean this one: And scroll scroll work some more and...Ah. You, Stillness, are the OP of this thread. OK, now your post is starting to make sense. Hmm. Well what comes to mind for me is this: Everything that exists, changes. So this non-existant changeless thing you've got going on can only be a product of mind. Otherwise, how can you know anything about it? So that would suggest to me that your mind is a reaction to it's own creation. Like an Ouroboros. Nothing that changes actually exists in any fundamental way. There's the knowing of this change which is clearly more fundamental than anything observed to be changing. The only way you can know that something is changing is if you are not. It's a bit like riding in an elevator. Unless you're feeling the change in velocity as you speed up or slow down, you don't know that you are moving because you're experiencing the movement from within the movement. Experience, in the largest sense, is a movement. Life is a movement. The fact that you are experiencing this movement at all tells you that you are not moving. Whatever you are is not changing or you could not know change. Whatever you are is timeless, spaceless or you could not know time and space. You are prior to all knowledge or you could not know anything. The fundamental is theoretical only. It exists only as an idea and can be a helpful pointer, but it seems that you have taken the pointer as truth. The reason we experience a knowing that things are changing is because human bodymind's have a pattern of giving themselves a fixed location in time and space. 'I'. This illusion of being fixed (and separate) gives us the experience of knowing that things around us are changing. So its not actually because we exist as something prior and fundamental that we know things change, its because we are deluded that we know things change! Yes, things change, but they change relative to each other. There is no actual unchanging prior thing that experiences. So the reason knowledge is collected is really just because human bodymind systems are biologically self-conscious and self-aware. It means that humans experience themselves as separate and therefore are able to know stuff. I mean, we can program robots to collect knowledge...does that mean there is some fundamental prior thing going on with robots? Im not saying humans are the same as robots, but the point remains. |
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Post by living on May 29, 2012 16:10:31 GMT -5
Sometimes the point blank truth does make me laugh at loud, as this one about states did. I used to think the journey was such a progressive linear-logical thing, and it was in the beginning, but the big AHA's never fit in that framework at all. You just have a knack for making me laugh about the simplicity at times. Question does, too. I would have barfed all over myself had I taken the ride you described. Incredible! Yeah, Zen eschews abstraction (except in the few cases where abstraction is useful and necessary). If the mind stops spinning with intellectual nonsense, things become simple and obvious. The spiritual path is challenging because it can rev up the mind until it is spinning faster than usual. If attention is shifted away from thoughts to what can be seen or heard, or to inquiry, the mind loses its grip, so to speak. Silence engenders realizations that sequentially collapse thought structures until the truth becomes laughingly obvious. If someone were to ask me, "What is the meaning of YOUR life?" I would answer, "Typing this note to Living." If someone were to ask me, "What is the meaning of HUMAN life?" I would answer, "Typing this note to Living." If someone were to ask me, "What is the meaning of UNIVERSAL life?" I would answer, "Typing this note to Living." If someone were to ask me, "What is the meaning OF THE MEANING of life?" I would answer, "Typing this note to Living." Notice the different forms of abstraction in each of these questions. Zen calls these kinds of subtle abstractions "thought-hooks," and most koans contain them. The challenge is to remain calmly present, refuse the intellectual bait, and respond directly to the truth of "what is." Consider the koan, "If you meet a deeply enlightened woman on the path, how can you greet her with neither words nor silence?" There are two thought hooks in this koan. The first is "deeply enlightened woman." Each of these three words is designed to hook the mind and send it running off on a wild goose chase. Oh wow, a woman, and a deeply enlightened one at that. How rare! How could such a rare and unusual person be greeted correctly? The second mind hook is the double bind "with neither words nor silence." Gosh, what other choices are there? Ha ha. If we look through the words and don't let the abstractions paralyze us, we silently wave, or bow, or pantomine a hug, or blow a kiss, or pantomine shaking hands, or say "Hello." A great number of posts on this forum hook the mind and start it spinning, but what is most important? Staying stuck in the mind and spinning, or getting clear? How is clarity attained? By shifting attention away from thoughts to THIS. In this moment what can be seen, heard, felt, tasted, smelled, or sensed? What can be attended beyond any comment, distinction, evaluation, judgment, cognition, fantasy, reflection, assumption, imagining, .....ad infinitum? The Buddha once taught a parable on this subject. He said its like a man who gets shot with an arrow. The man begins asking where the arrow came from, who shot it, how it was made, etc. The Buddha asked his disciples, "What is more important, knowing a hundred things about the arrow or pulling it out?" Each person who comes to this forum would do well to keep this parable in mind. Knowing brings one no closer to the truth (no pun intended). Ideas, definitions, and intellectual understanding are useless here. Any thought of self, or thought of self-centered desire, or thought of self-progress, or thought of self attainment, or thought of self lack, or thought of resistance, or thought of acceptance, or thought of allowance, reinforces the idea that there is an entity "in here" separate from what is "out there." No such entity exists. To find the truth open-eyed not-knowing is the way. Great post! Thank you. This in particular made me smile today- A great number of posts on this forum hook the mind and start it spinning, but what is most important? Staying stuck in the mind and spinning, or getting clear? How is clarity attained? By shifting attention away from thoughts to THIS. In this moment what can be seen, heard, felt, tasted, smelled, or sensed? What can be attended beyond any comment, distinction, evaluation, judgment, cognition, fantasy, reflection, assumption, imagining, .....ad infinitum? |
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Post by relinquish on May 29, 2012 16:36:33 GMT -5
Sometimes the point blank truth does make me laugh at loud, as this one about states did. I used to think the journey was such a progressive linear-logical thing, and it was in the beginning, but the big AHA's never fit in that framework at all. You just have a knack for making me laugh about the simplicity at times. Question does, too. I would have barfed all over myself had I taken the ride you described. Incredible! Yeah, Zen eschews abstraction (except in the few cases where abstraction is useful and necessary). If the mind stops spinning with intellectual nonsense, things become simple and obvious. The spiritual path is challenging because it can rev up the mind until it is spinning faster than usual. If attention is shifted away from thoughts to what can be seen or heard, or to inquiry, the mind loses its grip, so to speak. Silence engenders realizations that sequentially collapse thought structures until the truth becomes laughingly obvious. If someone were to ask me, "What is the meaning of YOUR life?" I would answer, "Typing this note to Living." If someone were to ask me, "What is the meaning of HUMAN life?" I would answer, "Typing this note to Living." If someone were to ask me, "What is the meaning of UNIVERSAL life?" I would answer, "Typing this note to Living." If someone were to ask me, "What is the meaning OF THE MEANING of life?" I would answer, "Typing this note to Living." Notice the different forms of abstraction in each of these questions. Zen calls these kinds of subtle abstractions "thought-hooks," and most koans contain them. The challenge is to remain calmly present, refuse the intellectual bait, and respond directly to the truth of "what is." Consider the koan, "If you meet a deeply enlightened woman on the path, how can you greet her with neither words nor silence?" There are two thought hooks in this koan. The first is "deeply enlightened woman." Each of these three words is designed to hook the mind and send it running off on a wild goose chase. Oh wow, a woman, and a deeply enlightened one at that. How rare! How could such a rare and unusual person be greeted correctly? The second mind hook is the double bind "with neither words nor silence." Gosh, what other choices are there? Ha ha. If we look through the words and don't let the abstractions paralyze us, we silently wave, or bow, or pantomine a hug, or blow a kiss, or pantomine shaking hands, or say "Hello." A great number of posts on this forum hook the mind and start it spinning, but what is most important? Staying stuck in the mind and spinning, or getting clear? How is clarity attained? By shifting attention away from thoughts to THIS. In this moment what can be seen, heard, felt, tasted, smelled, or sensed? What can be attended beyond any comment, distinction, evaluation, judgment, cognition, fantasy, reflection, assumption, imagining, .....ad infinitum? The Buddha once taught a parable on this subject. He said its like a man who gets shot with an arrow. The man begins asking where the arrow came from, who shot it, how it was made, etc. The Buddha asked his disciples, "What is more important, knowing a hundred things about the arrow or pulling it out?" Each person who comes to this forum would do well to keep this parable in mind. Knowing brings one no closer to the truth (no pun intended). Ideas, definitions, and intellectual understanding are useless here. Any thought of self, or thought of self-centered desire, or thought of self-progress, or thought of self attainment, or thought of self lack, or thought of resistance, or thought of acceptance, or thought of allowance, reinforces the idea that there is an entity "in here" separate from what is "out there." No such entity exists. To find the truth open-eyed not-knowing is the way. I'm going to go right out on a limb here and suggest that every single pointer you have ever shared on this forum began as a mental reaction to the direct experience of THIS. That's not to de-value anything you've said here in the slightest, but it ALL came from the mind. The same is true for pretty much every pointer to be found on this forum, and every pointer that has ever been fomulated in human history. If there was no mental reaction of 'likeing' to the direct experience of THIS, beyond thought, and no mental curiosity about how other minds might react to it, there would never have been any pointing to it. Here's some more pointing now. The passive non-reactiveness that I am talking about is what is witnessing you, the reader, read these words right now, and it's also what is witnessing the reaction to these words in the readers mind. In order for actions and reactions to be witnessed at all, they must ultimately be witness by passive non-reactiveness. Therefore, passive non-reactiveness is an absolute fact of our existence. We can not possibly be other than it. It is the same now as it always has been, just as it always will be. |
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Post by living on May 29, 2012 17:05:59 GMT -5
Here's some more pointing now. The passive non-reactiveness that I am talking about is what is witnessing you, the reader, read these words right now, and it's also what is witnessing the reaction to these words in the readers mind. In order for actions and reactions to be witnessed at all, they ultimately be witness by passive non-reactiveness. Therefore, passive non-reactiveness is an absolute fact of our existence. We can not possibly be other than it. It is the same now as it always has been, just as it always will be. Yes, I'm familiar with this pointer. The Mundaka Upanishad- Chapter Three There are two birds, two sweet friends, who dwell on the self-same tree. The one eats the fruits thereof, and the other looks on in silence. The first is the human soul who, resting on that tree, though active, feels sad in his unwisdom. But on beholding the power and glory of the higher Spirit, he becomes free from sorrow. When the wise seer beholds in golden glory the Lord, the Spirit, the Creator of the god of creation, then he leaves good and evil behind and in purity he goes to the unity supreme. In silent wonder the wise see him as the life flaming in all creation. This is the greatest seer of Brahman, who, doing all his work as holy work, in God, in Atman, in the Self, finds all his peace and joy. The Atman is attained by truth and tapas (goodness) whence come true wisdom and chastity. The wise who strive and who are pure see him within the body in his pure glory and light. Truth obtains victory, not untruth. Truth is the way that leads to the regions of light. Sages travel therein free from desires and reach the supreme abode of Truth. He is immeasurable in his light and beyond all thought, and yet he shines smaller than the smallest. Far, far away is he, and yet he is very near, resting in the inmost chamber of the heart. He cannot be seen by the eye, and words cannot reveal him. He cannot be reached by the senses, or by austerity or sacred actions. By the grace of wisdom and purity of mind, he can be seen indivisible in the silence of contemplation. This invisible Atman can be seen by the mind, wherein the five senses are resting. All mind is woven with the five senses; but in pure mind shines the light of the Self. Whatever regions the pure in heart may see in their mind, whatever desires he may have in his heart, he attains those regions and wins his desires: let one who wishes for success reverence the seers of the Spirit. translation by Juan Mascaro I also see a lot of what zendancer is sharing above within this. I also see a lot of what question, andrew, and figgy are sharing within this on the Story Time thread. |
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Post by kate on May 29, 2012 20:14:16 GMT -5
The Buddha once taught a parable on this subject. He said its like a man who gets shot with an arrow. The man begins asking where the arrow came from, who shot it, how it was made, etc. The Buddha asked his disciples, "What is more important, knowing a hundred things about the arrow or pulling it out? I had never heard this before but it reflects perfectly things I have heard in management and leadership workshops. The ineffective leader when faced with an unexpected crisis will immediately begin expending energy on questions like: How did this happen? Who is responsible? What's their excuse? How can I best express my frustration with them? And the good leader will first focus their energy on: How can we fix this as quickly and as effectively as possible? It seems like the latter would be the obvious way for someone to respond but I see all the time, that when the crisis hits and people get flustered, the obvious goes out the window. |
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Post by living on May 30, 2012 7:32:52 GMT -5
Yes, I agree. If Being is the basis of mind, then the mind was created to serve Being. Knowing the hundred things about the arrow would be Being serving mind. Pulling out the arrow would be mind serving Being.
It is getting clearer.
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Post by zendancer on May 30, 2012 10:36:02 GMT -5
Yes, I agree. If Being is the basis of mind, then the mind was created to serve Being. Knowing the hundred things about the arrow would be Being serving mind. Pulling out the arrow would be mind serving Being. It is getting clearer. Yes! ;D |
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