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Post by question on May 18, 2012 14:31:21 GMT -5
Hm, I don't see anything ambiguous here. Please clarify. |
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Post by figgy on May 18, 2012 14:41:08 GMT -5
While I won't go as far as to flush yer story down the terlet, there are a few 'terds' in your bowl in my estimation. ;D I've talked a bit about my trip into the void, but I don't think I've talked about what came next. The void was not a meditative experience but rather an instant of clarity that happened in the normal waking state in which everything collapsed utterly. There was nowhere to stand, nothing to hang onto, nothing to believe, and worst of all, no hope of ever finding joy again. At least that's how it looked because the entire sham was seen through. When I say we're making it all up, I mean it quite literally. There was simply nothing there to find. I was horrified. This was a hell like I could never have imagined and I ran. I didn't stop to think about it or try to turn it into some spiritual adventure. I wanted out and I didn't want to ever look back, but. I was wounded that day, and as it turns out, mortally so. You've just contradicted yourself and it is this same type of contradiction that is at the heart of your whole 'abiding in peace while horror arises simultaneously' story. if everything 'collapsed utterly' and there was nothing more to believe as everything was seen through completely, why was there still agreement with a thought that said; "something is not as it 'should' be"? That's the only way horror and terror could have arose. "Someone" is believing that something is 'wrong.' What you are describing is precisely 'a mind split.'..nothing wrong with this though. It's the only way we can hold ourselves apart from suffering AS it is occurring to identify instead with the calm center at the eye of the storm. This holding apart does indeed result in a sort of insulation from the emotional pain, but it's really only a separation in mind and this insulation will only continue so long as we refuse to identify with the 'one' who is feeling. And again, in order for a 'wound' to be perceived, that's a brand new story in the making. This could only arise in the face of a belief that there was 'something' in existence capable of being wounded. I sense there is a part of yourself whom you continue to perceive as being wounded and it is this perception that causes you to hold yourself apart from the totality of your experience, creating a false divide within your mind between what you perceive to be the 'real' you and the 'illusive' you. This fragmentation of experience has a great big judgment at it's helm.....one that says, this is self and that is not. This is actual, this is illusive. In short, This is better, that is worse. When we come to clearly see that there is nothing that occurs outside of self, there is a unification of experience, where the need to break the experience at hand into separate parts, subsides. What results is an acceptance of the totality of experience. There is no longer any need to reject or deny the one who feels emotion in favor of identifying with a dispassionate center of peace, for in unification, they are seen (and experienced) as being one. Or you could say, as the peace became 'primary' (Andrew's term that I like very much), the one who struggled, dissolved. You see, where there is a primary experience of peace, there is no struggle. The peace IS the absence of struggle....(and horror....or terror). Notice that you describe here that as the peace increased, the terror dissolved. The good/ bad labels are not clearly defined by the labels we assign but rather the moment a feeling becomes unwelcome is the moment it becomes one of discord. In short, when something feels unwanted...there is emotional discord...when it feels neutral or good, there is none. AS I see it, when the whole thing really does 'come tumbling down' and we see through all beliefs, and we really do see that we're making the whole thing up, the need to compartmentalize various parts of experience ceases and we accept and even embrace ALL of it. |
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Post by living on May 18, 2012 15:17:11 GMT -5
While I won't go as far as to flush yer story down the terlet, there are a few 'terds' in your bowl in my estimation. ;D I don't see any terds IN the bowl. ;D I, too, have fallen into the temptation of trying to describe the indescribable (believe me, I've been slammed for trying to describe it). The closest any of us can get is to say if we step out of any description or image, we wouldn't see a person or a soul. Perhaps just a tiny speck of awareness. |
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Post by jasonl on May 19, 2012 13:25:47 GMT -5
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Post by jasonl on May 19, 2012 13:26:35 GMT -5
62 million views for the toilet song...god help us hehe  |
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Post by runstill on May 20, 2012 10:43:04 GMT -5
While I won't go as far as to flush yer story down the terlet, there are a few 'terds' in your bowl in my estimation. ;D I've talked a bit about my trip into the void, but I don't think I've talked about what came next. The void was not a meditative experience but rather an instant of clarity that happened in the normal waking state in which everything collapsed utterly. There was nowhere to stand, nothing to hang onto, nothing to believe, and worst of all, no hope of ever finding joy again. At least that's how it looked because the entire sham was seen through. When I say we're making it all up, I mean it quite literally. There was simply nothing there to find. I was horrified. This was a hell like I could never have imagined and I ran. I didn't stop to think about it or try to turn it into some spiritual adventure. I wanted out and I didn't want to ever look back, but. I was wounded that day, and as it turns out, mortally so. You've just contradicted yourself and it is this same type of contradiction that is at the heart of your whole 'abiding in peace while horror arises simultaneously' story. if everything 'collapsed utterly' and there was nothing more to believe as everything was seen through completely, why was there still agreement with a thought that said; "something is not as it 'should' be"? That's the only way horror and terror could have arose. "Someone" is believing that something is 'wrong.' What you are describing is precisely 'a mind split.'..nothing wrong with this though. It's the only way we can hold ourselves apart from suffering AS it is occurring to identify instead with the calm center at the eye of the storm. This holding apart does indeed result in a sort of insulation from the emotional pain, but it's really only a separation in mind and this insulation will only continue so long as we refuse to identify with the 'one' who is feeling. And again, in order for a 'wound' to be perceived, that's a brand new story in the making. This could only arise in the face of a belief that there was 'something' in existence capable of being wounded. I sense there is a part of yourself whom you continue to perceive as being wounded and it is this perception that causes you to hold yourself apart from the totality of your experience, creating a false divide within your mind between what you perceive to be the 'real' you and the 'illusive' you. This fragmentation of experience has a great big judgment at it's helm.....one that says, this is self and that is not. This is actual, this is illusive. In short, This is better, that is worse. When we come to clearly see that there is nothing that occurs outside of self, there is a unification of experience, where the need to break the experience at hand into separate parts, subsides. What results is an acceptance of the totality of experience. There is no longer any need to reject or deny the one who feels emotion in favor of identifying with a dispassionate center of peace, for in unification, they are seen (and experienced) as being one. Or you could say, as the peace became 'primary' (Andrew's term that I like very much), the one who struggled, dissolved. You see, where there is a primary experience of peace, there is no struggle. The peace IS the absence of struggle....(and horror....or terror). Notice that you describe here that as the peace increased, the terror dissolved. The good/ bad labels are not clearly defined by the labels we assign but rather the moment a feeling becomes unwelcome is the moment it becomes one of discord. In short, when something feels unwanted...there is emotional discord...when it feels neutral or good, there is none. AS I see it, when the whole thing really does 'come tumbling down' and we see through all beliefs, and we really do see that we're making the whole thing up, the need to compartmentalize various parts of experience ceases and we accept and even embrace ALL of it. Wooooo its been three days and no response from Enigma?Does that mean there's agreement with this analyst ??  A little figgy- enigma discussion would be enlightening  |
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Post by enigma on May 20, 2012 12:05:00 GMT -5
While I won't go as far as to flush yer story down the terlet, there are a few 'terds' in your bowl in my estimation. ;D You've just contradicted yourself and it is this same type of contradiction that is at the heart of your whole 'abiding in peace while horror arises simultaneously' story. if everything 'collapsed utterly' and there was nothing more to believe as everything was seen through completely, why was there still agreement with a thought that said; "something is not as it 'should' be"? That's the only way horror and terror could have arose. "Someone" is believing that something is 'wrong.' What you are describing is precisely 'a mind split.'..nothing wrong with this though. It's the only way we can hold ourselves apart from suffering AS it is occurring to identify instead with the calm center at the eye of the storm. This holding apart does indeed result in a sort of insulation from the emotional pain, but it's really only a separation in mind and this insulation will only continue so long as we refuse to identify with the 'one' who is feeling. And again, in order for a 'wound' to be perceived, that's a brand new story in the making. This could only arise in the face of a belief that there was 'something' in existence capable of being wounded. I sense there is a part of yourself whom you continue to perceive as being wounded and it is this perception that causes you to hold yourself apart from the totality of your experience, creating a false divide within your mind between what you perceive to be the 'real' you and the 'illusive' you. This fragmentation of experience has a great big judgment at it's helm.....one that says, this is self and that is not. This is actual, this is illusive. In short, This is better, that is worse. When we come to clearly see that there is nothing that occurs outside of self, there is a unification of experience, where the need to break the experience at hand into separate parts, subsides. What results is an acceptance of the totality of experience. There is no longer any need to reject or deny the one who feels emotion in favor of identifying with a dispassionate center of peace, for in unification, they are seen (and experienced) as being one. Or you could say, as the peace became 'primary' (Andrew's term that I like very much), the one who struggled, dissolved. You see, where there is a primary experience of peace, there is no struggle. The peace IS the absence of struggle....(and horror....or terror). Notice that you describe here that as the peace increased, the terror dissolved. The good/ bad labels are not clearly defined by the labels we assign but rather the moment a feeling becomes unwelcome is the moment it becomes one of discord. In short, when something feels unwanted...there is emotional discord...when it feels neutral or good, there is none. AS I see it, when the whole thing really does 'come tumbling down' and we see through all beliefs, and we really do see that we're making the whole thing up, the need to compartmentalize various parts of experience ceases and we accept and even embrace ALL of it. Wooooo its been three days and no response from Enigma?Does that mean there's agreement with this analyst ?? A little figgy- enigma discussion would be enlightening Your wish is my command...... |
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Post by enigma on May 20, 2012 12:45:52 GMT -5
While I won't go as far as to flush yer story down the terlet, there are a few 'terds' in your bowl in my estimation. ;D I've talked a bit about my trip into the void, but I don't think I've talked about what came next. The void was not a meditative experience but rather an instant of clarity that happened in the normal waking state in which everything collapsed utterly. There was nowhere to stand, nothing to hang onto, nothing to believe, and worst of all, no hope of ever finding joy again. At least that's how it looked because the entire sham was seen through. When I say we're making it all up, I mean it quite literally. There was simply nothing there to find. I was horrified. This was a hell like I could never have imagined and I ran. I didn't stop to think about it or try to turn it into some spiritual adventure. I wanted out and I didn't want to ever look back, but. I was wounded that day, and as it turns out, mortally so. You've just contradicted yourself and it is this same type of contradiction that is at the heart of your whole 'abiding in peace while horror arises simultaneously' story. if everything 'collapsed utterly' and there was nothing more to believe as everything was seen through completely, why was there still agreement with a thought that said; "something is not as it 'should' be"? That's the only way horror and terror could have arose. "Someone" is believing that something is 'wrong.' Surely it must be clear that I described a 'me' that was "horrified", that "ran", that "wanted out", that was "wounded". So, by "collapsed utterly" I mean it collapsed for 'me'. When I say "nowhere to stand, nothing to hold onto", obviously there was still a belief in a 'me that had nowhere to stand and nothing to hold onto. (BTW, I don't mean that there was an earthquake at the time or that the handrails were defective). I didn't run "collapsed utterly" past my word lawyer, and he's shaking his head now, but I was just trying to give a feel for the experience, for the potential benefit of Midnight as well as to make a point about Peace. If there is indeed a calm center at the eye of the storm (there is) it's not a mind center, so it is not a mind split. Yes, the desperation to escape made that turning possible, but there is no identification with some glowing Peace orb or something. You and A are both still searching in the mind for Peace. A is on billion year single ended stick hunt, and you are trying to hold onto a conditional peace that makes turmoil impossible, which of course means that the dreaded turmoil will destroy that peace. And again, in order for a 'wound' to be perceived, that's a brand new story in the making. This could only arise in the face of a belief that there was 'something' in existence capable of being wounded. I sense there is a part of yourself whom you continue to perceive as being wounded and it is this perception that causes you to hold yourself apart from the totality of your experience, creating a false divide within your mind between what you perceive to be the 'real' you and the 'illusive' you. Which is what you are doing, so of course you understand it well. Why are you trying to get me to notice the point I was making? You try to make it sound like the horror and terror is still there waiting for me to screw up and stop splitting the mind, but all I'm saying is that so called negative feelings are not impossible and are not a problem. Don't come back with 'But how can God forsaken tortuous hell arise if you are at peace?' You know I'm not saying that. Now you sound like A trying to teach me that 1+1=2. That's my point. So why are you still compartmentalizing some experiences as bad and assuring yourself that they cannot arise? What happens to your peace if they DO arise? |
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Post by andrew on May 20, 2012 12:58:59 GMT -5
I would have preferred if you had addressed me on the other thread. However, this alleged 'eye of the storm' is exactly what I was saying on the other thread when I said that you experience being prior to mind. This 'eye of the storm' business is a big old mind split.
In non-abidance of mind i.e. in a state of lightness, joy, flow, ease and peace, we are not the eye of the storm a) because there is no darn storm, and b) because non-abidance is about de-centring the self, not about centring 'you' in a new 'prior' way.
Rather than surrendering to the flow of the river, what you have done is create an illusion in which you experience a sense of having planted your feet in the riverbed and the river is rushing around you. Hence, to you, the river LOOKS dualistic, and you are not directly experiencing the river. I understand that this sense of having your feet planted is preferable to you, but it means that you cannot experience non-abidance or the joy, lightness, ease and flow that comes with it, because you think that these things are bound to suffering, turmoil, despair, heaviness and depression.
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Post by figgy on May 20, 2012 14:28:07 GMT -5
I would have preferred if you had addressed me on the other thread. However, this alleged 'eye of the storm' is exactly what I was saying on the other thread when I said that you experience being prior to mind. This 'eye of the storm' business is a big old mind split. In non-abidance of mind i.e. in a state of lightness, joy, flow, ease and peace, we are not the eye of the storm a) because there is no darn storm, and b) because non-abidance is about de-centring the self, not about centring 'you' in a new 'prior' way. Rather than surrendering to the flow of the river, what you have done is create an illusion in which you experience a sense of having planted your feet in the riverbed and the river is rushing around you. Hence, to you, the river LOOKS dualistic, and you are not directly experiencing the river. I understand that this sense of having your feet planted is preferable to you, but it means that you cannot experience non-abidance or the joy, lightness, ease and flow that comes with it, because you think that these things are bound to suffering, turmoil, despair, heaviness and depression. Beautifully put Andrew. Indeed, it is possible to seemingly insulate ourselves from actual suffering but in doing so, we also insulate ourselves from experiencing the joy. |
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Post by figgy on May 20, 2012 15:21:09 GMT -5
Surely it must be clear that I described a 'me' that was "horrified", that "ran", that "wanted out", that was "wounded". So, by "collapsed utterly" I mean it collapsed for 'me'. When I say "nowhere to stand, nothing to hold onto", obviously there was still a belief in a 'me that had nowhere to stand and nothing to hold onto. (BTW, I don't mean that there was an earthquake at the time or that the handrails were defective). I didn't run "collapsed utterly" past my word lawyer, and he's shaking his head now, but I was just trying to give a feel for the experience, for the potential benefit of Midnight as well as to make a point about Peace. I understand that my pointing out contradiction may seem like nitpicking, however, over and over I see people vastly exaggerating their said states of being and experiences pertaining to awakening and I think this does a great disservice to those who are attempting to gain deeper understanding about this process. You also said that you were left with 'nothing to believe' and that you 'had seen through the entire sham.' Neither of these realization are compatible with feeling terrorized or wounded. And this is actually a point that is central to this conversation. When there is nothing left to believe and we can see through it all, there is great ease and flow as we face life head on and simply accept it all as it comes. At this point, there is nothing else to do. Where could terror or any kind of emotional angst enter in if we're completely free of clinging to any particular belief? When the whole ball of wax is accepted, there is no need anymore to divvy things up...mind/not mind.....it all simply IS..the totality of this physical experience. So long as we're experiencing physical life, can we ever say for sure that we're seeing beyond the confines of mind? I've certainly thought so at many times, but am no longer so inclined to claim so...in fact, I've come to see that in the big scheme of things, it doesn't really matter......there is THIS and the need to analyze it or compartmentalize the experience is dissipating more and more. IN this place of resistance to nothing and acceptance of all of it, there's no longer a need to identify with that which is deemed to be 'not of mind' over that which is...it's also seen that mind is not the enemy and there is no need to 'try' to move beyond it...and that in fact, 'trying' usually has the opposite effect.  peace is peace. It's present in the absence of resistance...and it is the platform from which joy (& other non-resistant emotions) arise from. So, you see me as holding myself apart from a certain aspect of my experience? How? I'm actually saying quite the opposite here. When we 'see through the entire sham' there really is no longer any reason to identify with one part of experience over another...no need to divy it up. I was attempting to get you to notice that in your story, as the peace deepened (as your resistance abated) the terror itself, abated. The two were not really able to exist side by side simultaneously in your experience. YOu seemed to be arguing that we can experience peace and terror simultaneously....? I'm saying that peace is the absence of resistance, therefore, if terror is arising, we are not in peace. I'm not. There is no judgment placed on either experience when I say that peace and terror do not arise together. I've always said that I accept ALL emotions as they arise..to fight against terror is to ensure that we go deeper into it.....To say that those emotions indicative of resistance do not arise when resistance is no longer there is not the same as saying, we MUST NOT experience emotions of discord. If terror were to suddenly arise in my experience, It would indeed be possible to direct my attention towards the quiet within, however, so long as the terror was still arising, peace would not be abiding. There is a totality of experience occurring that includes the terror as well as a certain amount of identification with the one who does not suffer. To accept the totality of experience is to include it all. We can play mind games and say we are only identifying with the peace within, and again, this will perhaps provide a certain insulation from an experience of suffering, however, if terror is present, peace is not 'abiding.' You've mentioned resonating with Tolle; "To offer no resistance to life is to be in a state of grace, ease, and lightness. This state is then no longer dependent upon things being in a certain way, good or bad. It seems almost paradoxical, yet when your inner dependency on form is gone, the general conditions that you thought you needed for your happiness now come to you with no struggle or effort on your part, and you are free to enjoy and appreciate them - while they last. All those things, of course, will still pass away, cycles will come and go, but with dependency gone there is no fear of loss anymore. Life flows with ease." Eckhart Tolle |
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Post by andrew on May 20, 2012 16:08:09 GMT -5
I would have preferred if you had addressed me on the other thread. However, this alleged 'eye of the storm' is exactly what I was saying on the other thread when I said that you experience being prior to mind. This 'eye of the storm' business is a big old mind split. In non-abidance of mind i.e. in a state of lightness, joy, flow, ease and peace, we are not the eye of the storm a) because there is no darn storm, and b) because non-abidance is about de-centring the self, not about centring 'you' in a new 'prior' way. Rather than surrendering to the flow of the river, what you have done is create an illusion in which you experience a sense of having planted your feet in the riverbed and the river is rushing around you. Hence, to you, the river LOOKS dualistic, and you are not directly experiencing the river. I understand that this sense of having your feet planted is preferable to you, but it means that you cannot experience non-abidance or the joy, lightness, ease and flow that comes with it, because you think that these things are bound to suffering, turmoil, despair, heaviness and depression. Beautifully put Andrew. Indeed, it is possible to seemingly insulate ourselves from actual suffering but in doing so, we also insulate ourselves from experiencing the joy. Yes, that's exactly it. |
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Post by enigma on May 20, 2012 17:13:45 GMT -5
I would have preferred if you had addressed me on the other thread. However, this alleged 'eye of the storm' is exactly what I was saying on the other thread when I said that you experience being prior to mind. This 'eye of the storm' business is a big old mind split. IOW, you agree with Figgy. That's not a surprise. Oh, yes, forgot to mention. In addition to there being no earthquake or defective handrails, there also were no meteorological events. Right, and of course the only one who has ever mentioned centering a 'you' in a new prior way is 'you'. So have you dealt with that or are you still working on it? |
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Post by enigma on May 20, 2012 18:55:46 GMT -5
Surely it must be clear that I described a 'me' that was "horrified", that "ran", that "wanted out", that was "wounded". So, by "collapsed utterly" I mean it collapsed for 'me'. When I say "nowhere to stand, nothing to hold onto", obviously there was still a belief in a 'me that had nowhere to stand and nothing to hold onto. (BTW, I don't mean that there was an earthquake at the time or that the handrails were defective). I didn't run "collapsed utterly" past my word lawyer, and he's shaking his head now, but I was just trying to give a feel for the experience, for the potential benefit of Midnight as well as to make a point about Peace. I understand that my pointing out contradiction may seem like nitpicking, however, over and over I see people vastly exaggerating their said states of being and experiences pertaining to awakening and I think this does a great disservice to those who are attempting to gain deeper understanding about this process. You also said that you were left with 'nothing to believe' and that you 'had seen through the entire sham.' Neither of these realization are compatible with feeling terrorized or wounded. And this is actually a point that is central to this conversation. When there is nothing left to believe and we can see through it all, there is great ease and flow as we face life head on and simply accept it all as it comes. At this point, there is nothing else to do. The experience I related began with what is clearly a description of existential terror. Only later did this dissolve. You keep pointing at the terror part and suggesting if I had come to full realization at that point I should have been skipping for joy. I've explained that at that point there was still a 'me' in abject terror. This is the last time I'm going to say it. I specifically asked you not to do that. That's right. Who ever said otherwise? It occurs to me that maybe you think the point of the story was to show that terror and Peace co-exist. That wasn't the point and no, I would not say Peace was there along with terror, though there was a vacillation between the two. |
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Post by figgy on May 20, 2012 19:15:36 GMT -5
The experience I related began with what is clearly a description of existential terror. Only later did this dissolve. You keep pointing at the terror part and suggesting if I had come to full realization at that point I should have been skipping for joy. I've explained that at that point there was still a 'me' in abject terror. This is the last time I'm going to say it. Awww......come on.....Pleeeaase....one more time, but this time with emphasis on the 'terror' bit. ;D Really....you should know better by now E. I'll try.  BTW...(and seriously)....I like your website!..was always surprised you didn't have one and I think it's wonderful that you're selling a book of your awesome poetry. As I recall, you have quite a talent. Must say, Seems you've gone a little more 'mainstream' in terms of your website content.......dare I even say..... danglin' a carrot or two?  Overall, Good stuff though! [/quote] |
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