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Post by andrew on Feb 23, 2012 13:00:44 GMT -5
''Chomp, Chomp, Chomp'' Who cares about the cow as long as we are focused on the 'Chomp'? Seem to me that the kind of enlightenment often being sold on here is a way to justify moral bankruptcy. I think its a mistake to divorce morality from enlightenment, as we are beings that experience duality...good and bad, right and wrong, positive and negative, attraction and aversion, yes and no. Lacking an understanding of what enlightenment actually refers to, it would seem so. Well, I would say Im pretty clear what 'enlightenment' is about. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 23, 2012 13:01:39 GMT -5
''Chomp, Chomp, Chomp'' Who cares about the cow as long as we are focused on the 'Chomp'? Seem to me that the kind of enlightenment often being sold on here is a way to justify moral bankruptcy. I think its a mistake to divorce morality from enlightenment, as we are beings that experience duality...good and bad, right and wrong, positive and negative, attraction and aversion, yes and no. Really? Are you such a being?  Or did you mean you experience the appearance of good and bad, right and wrong, positive and negative, ...? Or do these polarities exists in their own right? It seems that you don't see yourself existing in your own right, your existence seems to rely on all these things you've just mentioned above. And so there's a lot at steak in this discussion. ;D |
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Post by therealfake on Feb 23, 2012 13:03:45 GMT -5
Well, there is knowing through the body, or heart, and there is knowing through the mind. When sages discuss "not knowing" they are referring specifically to not knowing with the mind. Sages, themselves, are not interacting with the world through a conceptual framework; they are interacting with it directly, and are therefore one-with Tao. They are in flow. They are verbs rather than nouns. If peeps could spend one day without thinking, they would understand what these words are pointing to. Unfortunately, the habit of thought is so ingrained, and thoughts are so incessant, that the average person only sees the world through a filter of thoughts and therefore remains blind to the living truth. Hah! Yes, I agree, the mind can't grasp the unknown, but the body awareness can. And it's not about to share it's perceptions with the mind...hehe 'Not knowing' through the mind is not 'knowing' with the mind, it refers to not using the mind to perceive the world. Thinking never stops, not even in the dream world, so that's not an option. It can only be relegated to the background where it's noise isn't so apparent. But trying to stop thinking is doomed to fail. I think that it's more important to present the idea of 'not knowing' to the mind, as a counter balance to the illusory, self important idea of knowing the world. That way we can allow ourselves to open up to the reality of the unknown, without crapping our pants in fear. Our bodies know how to live in the unknown NOW, it's just a matter of convincing the mind... ;D |
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Post by enigma on Feb 23, 2012 13:09:03 GMT -5
Yes, this is a major point of departure for me. But, I'm not wont to argue with it. Carry on.  Thats cool. Following a brief investigation it seems Im not saying something a whole lot different from some Buddhists, though what they refer to as 'Nirvana', I would refer to as the 4th or 5th dimension - because what I see happening at the moment is more of a collective shift than an individual shift. As an example though.... www.thebigview.com/buddhism/fourtruths.htmlbuddhism.about.com/od/thefournobletruths/a/dukkhaexplain.htmYou mean it only looked like Buddha was walking down the road, and really he was boogying in the 5th dimension? |
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Post by andrew on Feb 23, 2012 13:14:05 GMT -5
You mean it only looked like Buddha was walking down the road, and really he was boogying in the 5th dimension? No, what I meant was that Buddhahood in those days was of a different nature in those days because there were very few souls at that level. These days its a whole different thing. |
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Post by andrew on Feb 23, 2012 13:16:41 GMT -5
Im saying that this bodymind system will not swallow meat. It just wont. The throat would close up even IF I could get the meat to the mouth. This bodymind system wont even get that far though, it wouldnt pick meat off a shelf to buy it or cook it. Im sorry E, I see you would like to think that I am in control of the bodymind system but I am very surrendered to the intelligence of the system, and quite simply, I cannot eat meat. In a sense I DO give the bodymind system the power to discern, but I would put it another way and say that I pay attention to its messages. You can choose not to believe that this bodymind system rejects meat, but Im telling you thats the way it is. You can say its down to beliefs, but I would say its down to vibration, sensitivity, and connectivity. Why dont you eat steak these days? Do you buy free range or battery farm eggs? I had been a vegan for years and being homeless too. As you might imagine some days were not exactly feast day! Until I moved to Boulder CO were they feed homeless people there choice according to there dietary requirements ;D Anyway, I was vegan (no eggs, milk etc). Actually at the time I wouldn't harm any weeds growing either. One day I was trying to avoid this certain lady and her incessant seductions strategies. So I was not going to my regular feeding grounds. I had not had a shower in some time, it was kind of cold. I was sitting waiting for another another place to open to get some coffee. This woman shows up. Very rich looking wearing blue cashmere, reading the inscriptions on the bike path. To make this short, we started talking and she said she was homeless too. It's sometimes hard to tell who is homeless in Boulder! I told her were we could go get something to eat at the Cottage. She ask me on the way back, "what would you do if you had a car?" I said, "I don't know, I haven't thought about it." She said she had a car parked on Arapahoe Ave. Well she had a new SUV and a major credit card accts. She said she was going to buy me a steak dinner. I said, "I'm vegan" She said not anymore. I thought my Wonderful Creator sent her to me. So that day vegan went out the door and we went to the motel and then headed to California! hehehe You've certainly had some adventures! Thats a funny story, but I dont avoid meat on a principle, as I said I TRIED to eat it long after the bodymind was rejecting it. In the end, I surrendered to the bodymind. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 23, 2012 13:16:52 GMT -5
in the bigger picture, what is, is. Back in Pavlinaville, I started a thread regarding this very subject that turned out to be highly contentious. It simply puts me in shock that someone else would say this after the feedback I got back then. It's a very common teaching. Tons of peeps have said it. I think you know that. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 23, 2012 13:24:10 GMT -5
i guess all i'm saying is that from my perspective, i see enigma typing away here every day as an act of love. extraordinary patience and compassion. i see the same from a lot of other folks as well. adya talks a lot about how the truth returns for itself in all forms, that it longs to liberate itself. perhaps what looks from one side like argument, can be seen from another side to be quite loving. my grandmother was on the tough love angle. she never, in her words, blew sunshine up my backside.... told it to me straight, even when i was too silly, petulant or stuck to be able to hear her. but that woman loved me more than words can say, because she loved me enough to plow through my storyline, no matter how much i may have even been angry at her for doing so. in the end, i'm the lucky one for seeing what a gift she gave me. It takes a 'Pure Heart Buddha' to see as you do. ;D |
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Post by andrew on Feb 23, 2012 13:24:16 GMT -5
Well, there is knowing through the body, or heart, and there is knowing through the mind. When sages discuss "not knowing" they are referring specifically to not knowing with the mind. Sages, themselves, are not interacting with the world through a conceptual framework; they are interacting with it directly, and are therefore one-with Tao. They are in flow. They are verbs rather than nouns. If peeps could spend one day without thinking, they would understand what these words are pointing to. Unfortunately, the habit of thought is so ingrained, and thoughts are so incessant, that the average person only sees the world through a filter of thoughts and therefore remains blind to the living truth. Hah! Yes, I agree, the mind can't grasp the unknown, but the body awareness can. And it's not about to share it's perceptions with the mind...hehe 'Not knowing' through the mind is not 'knowing' with the mind, it refers to not using the mind to perceive the world. Thinking never stops, not even in the dream world, so that's not an option. It can only be relegated to the background where it's noise isn't so apparent. But trying to stop thinking is doomed to fail. I think that it's more important to present the idea of 'not knowing' to the mind, as a counter balance to the illusory, self important idea of knowing the world. That way we can allow ourselves to open up to the reality of the unknown, without crapping our pants in fear. Our bodies know how to live in the unknown NOW, it's just a matter of convincing the mind... ;D From a different perspective, I would that we have been conditioned to think the mind is separate from the body. Some of the enlightened teachings unintentionally reinforce this by positing the problem of separation at the level of the mind. The mind then becomes the enemy, and the body becomes the friend. Thought becomes the enemy and feeling/sense perception becomes the friend. This isnt helpful. When the belief is released that mind are body are separate, and the bodymind system is seen holistically, this friend/enemy dynamic is released and thought is as much a friend as feeling/sense perception. |
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Post by zendancer on Feb 23, 2012 13:24:21 GMT -5
Well, there is knowing through the body, or heart, and there is knowing through the mind. When sages discuss "not knowing" they are referring specifically to not knowing with the mind. Sages, themselves, are not interacting with the world through a conceptual framework; they are interacting with it directly, and are therefore one-with Tao. They are in flow. They are verbs rather than nouns. If peeps could spend one day without thinking, they would understand what these words are pointing to. Unfortunately, the habit of thought is so ingrained, and thoughts are so incessant, that the average person only sees the world through a filter of thoughts and therefore remains blind to the living truth. Hah! Yes, I agree, the mind can't grasp the unknown, but the body awareness can. And it's not about to share it's perceptions with the mind...hehe 'Not knowing' through the mind is not 'knowing' with the mind, it refers to not using the mind to perceive the world. Thinking never stops, not even in the dream world, so that's not an option. It can only be relegated to the background where it's noise isn't so apparent. But trying to stop thinking is doomed to fail. I think that it's more important to present the idea of 'not knowing' to the mind, as a counter balance to the illusory, self important idea of knowing the world. That way we can allow ourselves to open up to the reality of the unknown, without crapping our pants in fear. Our bodies know how to live in the unknown NOW, it's just a matter of convincing the mind... ;D Aggzually, thinking can stop, totally, for long periods of time, but its not necessary for self-realization to occur. After the illusion of selfhood is seen through (which is often triggered by a silent mind), then it is realized that THIS thinks, so it's no longer necessary to shift attention. The one who was imagined as the shifter is seen to be THIS, so there is a relaxation and willingness to be what one already IS. Afterwards, it doesn't matter what the mind does because it is simply an aspect of what one IS, sometimes minding and sometimes not. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 23, 2012 13:27:22 GMT -5
i guess all i'm saying is that from my perspective, i see enigma typing away here every day as an act of love. extraordinary patience and compassion. i see the same from a lot of other folks as well. adya talks a lot about how the truth returns for itself in all forms, that it longs to liberate itself. perhaps what looks from one side like argument, can be seen from another side to be quite loving. my grandmother was on the tough love angle. she never, in her words, blew sunshine up my backside.... told it to me straight, even when i was too silly, petulant or stuck to be able to hear her. but that woman loved me more than words can say, because she loved me enough to plow through my storyline, no matter how much i may have even been angry at her for doing so. in the end, i'm the lucky one for seeing what a gift she gave me. Yeah, I, too, had a grandmother who cut to the chase in her dealings with everyone. I also learned from her, even at a very early age (she was the only grandparent I ever knew). When I was three, I ran over her foot with my tricycle. "OW!" she said. "You ran over my foot!!" "Well, move your d@mned foot!", I replied. Hehe. I'm guessing she 'cut to the chase' with you about that one too? |
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Post by enigma on Feb 23, 2012 13:30:34 GMT -5
Well, what we have on this forum is different peeps with many different levels of understanding, experience, and realization, so there is a great deal of talking past one another. A Pharisee, who is strongly attached to a set of rigid ideas, cannot understand what a Jesus (who is free from ideation) is talking about. Here, we have a few people who are identical to the Pharisees, and we have a few who have attained an enlightened perspective. All others fall somewhere on the spectrum between these two extremes, but, fortunately, the majority are closer to the enlightened end of the spectrum than the Pharisee end of the spectrum. (Andrew is a special case who is all over the spectrum--LOL) Hehe. That got me giggling. Andrew is a full spectrum moholer! ;D |
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Post by enigma on Feb 23, 2012 13:49:50 GMT -5
You mean it only looked like Buddha was walking down the road, and really he was boogying in the 5th dimension? No, what I meant was that Buddhahood in those days was of a different nature in those days because there were very few souls at that level. These days its a whole different thing. You've been saying suffering is inevitable in the human experience now, which goes against the 3rd noble truth and the claims of buddha himself. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 23, 2012 13:51:22 GMT -5
I had been a vegan for years and being homeless too. As you might imagine some days were not exactly feast day! Until I moved to Boulder CO were they feed homeless people there choice according to there dietary requirements ;D Anyway, I was vegan (no eggs, milk etc). Actually at the time I wouldn't harm any weeds growing either. One day I was trying to avoid this certain lady and her incessant seductions strategies. So I was not going to my regular feeding grounds. I had not had a shower in some time, it was kind of cold. I was sitting waiting for another another place to open to get some coffee. This woman shows up. Very rich looking wearing blue cashmere, reading the inscriptions on the bike path. To make this short, we started talking and she said she was homeless too. It's sometimes hard to tell who is homeless in Boulder! I told her were we could go get something to eat at the Cottage. She ask me on the way back, "what would you do if you had a car?" I said, "I don't know, I haven't thought about it." She said she had a car parked on Arapahoe Ave. Well she had a new SUV and a major credit card accts. She said she was going to buy me a steak dinner. I said, "I'm vegan" She said not anymore. I thought my Wonderful Creator sent her to me. So that day vegan went out the door and we went to the motel and then headed to California! hehehe You've certainly had some adventures! Thats a funny story, but I dont avoid meat on a principle, as I said I TRIED to eat it long after the bodymind was rejecting it. In the end, I surrendered to the bodymind. You surrendered to your unconscious guilt. ;D |
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Post by andrew on Feb 23, 2012 13:57:44 GMT -5
No, what I meant was that Buddhahood in those days was of a different nature in those days because there were very few souls at that level. These days its a whole different thing. You've been saying suffering is inevitable in the human experience now, which goes against the 3rd noble truth and the claims of buddha himself. I agree with Buddha that the end of suffering is when we reach Nirvana. For us, that will manifest as a collective shift, and the earth itself will reach 'Nirvana'. |
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