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Post by quinn on Feb 17, 2012 8:08:09 GMT -5
And for those of us who find "almost everybody dies without becoming free" to be too sweeping (and limiting) a statement, there's this from Adya...... "Everything's natural tendency is to self-liberate. That's the good news. Whatever is held is what keeps total realization from happening. So when you don't seem to be self-liberating, you are holding on to something static, ideas or memories." "The unknown, our true nature, has the capacity to wake itself up when you start to fall in love with letting go of all the mental structures you hold onto. Contemplate this: there is no such thing as a true belief." I'm not totally sure of what you mean by "sweeping (and limiting)" but it is a completely true statement. And yes, I think that quote from Adya goes some way to explaining why it's true. "Almost everyone dies without becoming free" may have been true in the past, but we have no way of knowing if this is currently true or will be in the future. Clarity doesn't mean clairvoyance. That's the "sweeping" part. The limiting part is the inference that the odds are heavily against us, which can just add another layer of resistance. Another little thought running in the background like 'this probably isn't going to happen". Adya's saying life tends to go towards freedom. I've seen that in nature, in societies, in myself. It's a different focus from Enigma's and I think it matters. And they're both saying Notice. No problem there. ;D |
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Post by quinn on Feb 17, 2012 8:28:26 GMT -5
Adya has suggested and explained in his videos how this gradual process is most common, and that one should reach the point of a full, complete, and permanent state of awakening is very, very rare. Made perfect sense to me. Actually, he used to say that in his earlier years, but there was one more current video where he said it doesn't seem to be as true anymore. People are dissolving right and left. Wish I could offer to dig that video up for you, but there are a LOT of them and I don't have the time! Makes sense to me, though. The earth seems to be approaching a crisis, societies are in crisis. And I think a lot of us began to crack open when there was crisis on a personal level - that was true for me, anyway. And the teachings are widely accessible. Seems like a perfect environment for some global waking up. |
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Post by Beingist on Feb 17, 2012 8:42:34 GMT -5
Its not so much your sense of 'knowing' that you are posting on the forum that is the issue, its your believing that its 'contextually true' that is the issue. Its a way of saying 'my map is correct and telling the truth and its okay for me to believe my map is telling the truth because I also dont believe that any belief is ultimately true'. Its a massive massive cop out. Maybe what SC means by 'half pregnant'. It means you get to STILL believe what you perceive to be 'true' and then get to claim that what others perceive is 'false'. The senses cannot be depended on to 'tell the truth of the matter'. Suddenly, I'm finding this whole 'map' and 'territory' analogy quite fascinating. Speaking strictly from my own perspective, I don't see E. as having a 'map' at all. I think he's already been over his maps, and at some point, tossed them all into the river, and just ventured into the territory. Others here seem to have done that, also, but while others who have seen the territory may be trying to draw maps for those who haven't, E. seems to be saying, rather, "there's a lion's den on the other side of that hill". Others who have been over the territory sometimes argue that there is no lion's den, or that it's really a snake pit, or that it's really a butterfly haven, or even that there is no hill. ( ;D). In any event, in my experience, and after mistakenly arguing with him that my own maps are reliable, I've ventured into some areas of the territory that E. has suggested, and discovered that, indeed, the layout of that territory is pretty much what E. has suggested. With others, not so much (though to be sure, I still listen, as I still think they've also seen some of the territory). |
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Post by andrew on Feb 17, 2012 9:02:24 GMT -5
Its not so much your sense of 'knowing' that you are posting on the forum that is the issue, its your believing that its 'contextually true' that is the issue. Its a way of saying 'my map is correct and telling the truth and its okay for me to believe my map is telling the truth because I also dont believe that any belief is ultimately true'. Its a massive massive cop out. Maybe what SC means by 'half pregnant'. It means you get to STILL believe what you perceive to be 'true' and then get to claim that what others perceive is 'false'. The senses cannot be depended on to 'tell the truth of the matter'. Suddenly, I'm finding this whole 'map' and 'territory' analogy quite fascinating. Speaking strictly from my own perspective, I don't see E. as having a 'map' at all. I think he's already been over his maps, and at some point, tossed them all into the river, and just ventured into the territory. Others here seem to have done that, also, but while others who have seen the territory may be trying to draw maps for those who haven't, E. seems to be saying, rather, "there's a lion's den on the other side of that hill". Others who have been over the territory sometimes argue that there is no lion's den, or that it's really a snake pit, or that it's really a butterfly haven, or even that there is no hill. ( ;D). In any event, in my experience, and after mistakenly arguing with him that my own maps are reliable, I've ventured into some areas of the territory that E. has suggested, and discovered that, indeed, the layout of that territory is pretty much what E. has suggested. With others, not so much (though to be sure, I still listen, as I still think they've also seen some of the territory). Maps cannot be gotten rid of. A map is basically a vantage point, a frame of reference, a perspective, and each of us has a different one. What you perceive is going to be different in some ways to the way that I perceive, or what E perceives, or what a dog perceives. The map is basically 'individualized mind'. Perceiving is subjective because perception happens through mind. Mind cannot actually be dropped (though it can seem sometimes if it has been). The way that E presents himself makes it seem as if he has no map (or that his map tells the truth of the territory) and that is often what appeals to seekers of enlightenment, because the mind that seeks enlightenment tends to think that the problem is that their map is false. Whereas I would say that clarity emerges when ideas are no longer attached to as true or false and that what blocks clarity is attachment to the duality OF truth/falsity. Dont get me wrong though, I DO think that enlightened maps do have many commonalities. The idea of an external reality that contains fixed and separate objects which can be known objectively to exist by a knower, is dependent on the duality of truth/falsity. Without belief in the duality of truth/falsity we are in the realms of subjectivity, possibility and potential, that is without an objective knower or something known. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2012 9:07:59 GMT -5
I thought a map was something you looked at from a vantage point, not the vantage point itself? It is something to get a birds eye view of where one's vantage point is located in space relative to other points.
Using the definition above, and in the context of nonduality, a map is purely conceptual, and thus not real. There is no birds eye view in actuality.
Just THIS.
What I hear Andrew saying over and over is okay okay that may be true in the nonduality context. So what? How do you get to a place in a foreign land. Ask someone else or use a friggin map or wander until you find it.
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Post by andrew on Feb 17, 2012 9:17:20 GMT -5
I thought a map was something you looked at from a vantage point, not the vantage point itself? It is something to get a birds eye view of where one's vantage point is located in space relative to other points. Using the definition above, and in the context of nonduality, a map is purely conceptual, and thus not real. There is no birds eye view in actuality. Just THIS. What I hear Andrew saying over and over is okay okay that may be true in the nonduality context. So what? How do you get to a place in a foreign land. Ask someone else or use a friggin map or wander until you find it. In linguistic terms, the map is the frame of reference. Its the individualized mind. Vantage point may not have been the best way of describing it then. A map IS purely conceptual/imaginary, but the universe is purely conceptual/imaginary! IF perceiving is happening and experiencing is happening, its all happening through Mind (through subjective maps). So if I am understanding you, I am saying that there is no birds eye view, there is no observing or witnessing objectively. In THIS current earth/human reality we still experience linear time and space, we still experience objects, we still experience the duality of truth/falsity, we still experience 'evidence' and 'proof', we still experience 'over there', we still experience an objective reality. The enlightened still experience all that stuff but its just not at the forefront of the experience. Oneness/unity is primary. Its kind of funny that although I talk of the 5th dimension, it is usually other people that are actually pointing to it. I am relatively down to earth in my opinions as to what is possible for humans right now. |
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Post by joel on Feb 17, 2012 10:10:52 GMT -5
The teacher who is beyond nice and positive probed me gently with subtle questions, and became a mirror that showed me something I hadn't seen in a while - my heart, and it was full, not empty. We talked about it, the presence of emptiness with fullness, or awareness with love, and it now occurs to me that this love - the love that creates and moves all of life and the universe - is what is missing from so many teachings, and what one (probably) cannot get from books or alone as a seeking self. Now, all of us going around in a perpetual state of empty awareness, 10, 25, 35 years, and teachers sharing their empty "truths" and not awakening anybody, are revealed: the heart has not been opened. This heart is just as wordless and unassailable as still, empty awareness, and just as necessary. Real, absolute, nondual awareness does not exist as one without the other. Now I'm in the process of allowing the ebb and flow of toxic karmic residue (as i call it) to ooze out, and waiting for the resolution of this paradox to come to me. There is no more seeking, trying, or working on anything. Thank God.
(inspired to post this under spiritual teachers also)
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Post by joel on Feb 17, 2012 10:35:37 GMT -5
Freejoy, thanks for your whack! ;D I tried to exalt you for it, because it gives more clarity. Isn't it amazing how we battle each other. Even with a qualifier about my use of the word "karma" - claiming it as just my words, not claiming to be this or that - you completely miss the point and focus on the most mundane aspect of the message. That takes a lot of heart, lol.
The clarity comes that the short time I have been on this sight is now over. It has been useful, and now the time is better invested in other things. Or given in service?" Or whatever! Thank God, and you for that. Keep whacking!
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Post by enigma on Feb 17, 2012 11:36:08 GMT -5
Yeah, and that approach, of noticing irritation (or whatever) come up, and then asking, 'Hey, what the heck is that about?', is what I did for many years as well. I would say this is the process by which I became 'conscious', though some here would argue that I haven't. Hehe. While it's not fun, maybe you've noticed it results in a progressive release of attachment such that it becomes much easier to deal with, and with less resistance, the clarity comes much faster.
Every idea you see through or reaction you surrender leaves you in a deeper peace, with a calmer, clearer mind, so you want to finish the job. At least that was my experience. Absolutely, indubitably, yup to the bold part. Adya has suggested and explained in his videos how this gradual process is most common, and that one should reach the point of a full, complete, and permanent state of awakening is very, very rare. Made perfect sense to me. Something I've also noticed, lately, is that it tends to be my experience to realize something fully, but then ... I dunno, lose the realization for a time, as there seems to remain the need to have to work through some residual stuff (usually emotional) before I can be done with that issue, and so reach that deeper clarity. An analogy would be like a light getting turned on (realization), but since I've been asleep, I still need to rub away the eye boogers; since I've been in the dark, my eyes need to get accustomed to the light, which means closing them, again, for a minute or two. Yeah, what you describe is typical. Realization is beyond mind, and therefore beyond doubt. The only way it can be thrown into doubt is if you give it to mind. (Casting Pearls before swine-mind) That's why I keep talking about the sovereignty of our seeing. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 17, 2012 11:41:39 GMT -5
Yeah, and that approach, of noticing irritation (or whatever) come up, and then asking, 'Hey, what the heck is that about?', is what I did for many years as well. I would say this is the process by which I became 'conscious', though some here would argue that I haven't. Hehe. While it's not fun, maybe you've noticed it results in a progressive release of attachment such that it becomes much easier to deal with, and with less resistance, the clarity comes much faster. Every idea you see through or reaction you surrender leaves you in a deeper peace, with a calmer, clearer mind, so you want to finish the job. At least that was my experience. You became conscious but the 'one' who became conscious has not been transcended. It has been 'seen through' but that means nothing really because the 'seeing through' is still just part of the 'being conscious' So basically, you are still conscious. Its not a bad place to be, but ultimately I would say its a separating place to be. You haven't seen through the one who became conscious because this is the volitional one you don't want to see through. Yes, it's a separating place to be, but that where you want to be. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 17, 2012 12:06:58 GMT -5
I'm not totally sure of what you mean by "sweeping (and limiting)" but it is a completely true statement. And yes, I think that quote from Adya goes some way to explaining why it's true. "Almost everyone dies without becoming free" may have been true in the past, but we have no way of knowing if this is currently true or will be in the future. Clarity doesn't mean clairvoyance. That's the "sweeping" part. The limiting part is the inference that the odds are heavily against us, which can just add another layer of resistance. Another little thought running in the background like 'this probably isn't going to happen". Adya's saying life tends to go towards freedom. I've seen that in nature, in societies, in myself. It's a different focus from Enigma's and I think it matters. And they're both saying Notice. No problem there. ;D Everything moves toward Truth and i have no idea what may happen in the future, but your issue is with what's actually happening and not with me. I don't encourage peeps on their path to enlightenment because the path ends in utter futility, and the sooner the better. Utter futility is your goal as a seeker, and mostly I point to that goal. If you want encouragement, I would say the good news is you never left home in the first place, and you're going to have to stop looking for home before you can notice that. It all gets vewy, vewy simple. You ARE home. You ARE what you have been seeking. Watch how peeps on this forum spin complex, convoluted giraffe tails about how to get someplace they never left and become something they never ceased to be, and you might start to see why I'm not on the enlightenment path cheer-leading squad. |
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Post by therealfake on Feb 17, 2012 12:19:15 GMT -5
Yup,
I get a picture in my mind of a hitch hiker, hiking around the universe, looking for 'home' (awakening)...
Not realizing it's been in his/her back pack all along...hehe
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Post by quinn on Feb 17, 2012 12:28:13 GMT -5
"Almost everyone dies without becoming free" may have been true in the past, but we have no way of knowing if this is currently true or will be in the future. Clarity doesn't mean clairvoyance. That's the "sweeping" part. The limiting part is the inference that the odds are heavily against us, which can just add another layer of resistance. Another little thought running in the background like 'this probably isn't going to happen". Adya's saying life tends to go towards freedom. I've seen that in nature, in societies, in myself. It's a different focus from Enigma's and I think it matters. And they're both saying Notice. No problem there. ;D Everything moves toward Truth and i have no idea what may happen in the future, but your issue is with what's actually happening and not with me. I don't encourage peeps on their path to enlightenment because the path ends in utter futility, and the sooner the better. Utter futility is your goal as a seeker, and mostly I point to that goal. If you want encouragement, I would say the good news is you never left home in the first place, and you're going to have to stop looking for home before you can notice that. It all gets vewy, vewy simple. You ARE home. You ARE what you have been seeking. Watch how peeps on this forum spin complex, convoluted giraffe tails about how to get someplace they never left and become something they never ceased to be, and you might start to see why I'm not on the enlightenment path cheer-leading squad. Yeah, I understand. I'm not sure what you mean by "your issue is with what's actually happening and not with me." I don't have any issue with you. I know what you think is important to stress and I actually appreciate it. I guess I'm on the cheer-leading squad. Maybe it is counter-productive and I'll find that out at some point. But for now, I see a lot of value in the power of an extended hand. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 17, 2012 12:28:13 GMT -5
The teacher who is beyond nice and positive probed me gently with subtle questions, and became a mirror that showed me something I hadn't seen in a while - my heart, and it was full, not empty. We talked about it, the presence of emptiness with fullness, or awareness with love, and it now occurs to me that this love - the love that creates and moves all of life and the universe - is what is missing from so many teachings, and what one (probably) cannot get from books or alone as a seeking self. Now, all of us going around in a perpetual state of empty awareness, 10, 25, 35 years, and teachers sharing their empty "truths" and not awakening anybody, are revealed: the heart has not been opened. This heart is just as wordless and unassailable as still, empty awareness, and just as necessary. Real, absolute, nondual awareness does not exist as one without the other. Now I'm in the process of allowing the ebb and flow of toxic karmic residue (as i call it) to ooze out, and waiting for the resolution of this paradox to come to me. There is no more seeking, trying, or working on anything. Thank God. (inspired to post this under spiritual teachers also) No karma sorry to disappoint you. Haven't you been reading the Master Enigma. I haven't said there is no karma. I've used the term in the same way Joel uses it. What I have said is that it's not a payback for bad deeds. |
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Post by andrew on Feb 17, 2012 12:30:36 GMT -5
You became conscious but the 'one' who became conscious has not been transcended. It has been 'seen through' but that means nothing really because the 'seeing through' is still just part of the 'being conscious' So basically, you are still conscious. Its not a bad place to be, but ultimately I would say its a separating place to be. You haven't seen through the one who became conscious because this is the volitional one you don't want to see through. Yes, it's a separating place to be, but that where you want to be. I saw through it but it didnt change the 'being conscious' for the reasons I stated. In order to take a stepless step beyond 'being conscious' another strategy is required. |
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