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Post by therealfake on Feb 16, 2012 9:52:21 GMT -5
enigma, I think ego is much tougher than you realize. It happens spontaneously, through interest? But then you say that the only thing we can do is notice. Is that doing not a form of volition? How can you say that your use of noticing here is different from my use of voluntary attention? You actually offer no way of breaking free from ego. You say: "Where the attention of awareness lands is critical". I agree wholeheartedly. However, if we wait for it to land *spontaneously*, from interest, we can wait our whole life, and die, without becoming free. We are what we say "I" to. You don't offer a real way to pass from ego-functioning to awareness. You don't offer a way to cease saying "I" to ego so that one can be awareness. What you seem to say is it either happens, or it doesn't. I can't accept that..........sdp Yeah, I'd have to say that's how it is. Almost everybody dies without becoming free. It's not a very upbeat message, but I suspect you've heard it before. Still, if there's a deep longing to realize Truth, and it's sincere, I would say the probability is very high you will awaken. A sincere longing is very rare. Even most of those who have a sincere desire, don't actually want what Truth is, since it is the end of the wanter. That's why trying to talk about what Truth actually is can be useful. Most will find they want something else. True, what one finds though, is not actually a simple decision to wake up or not. What is found is the first obstacle to awakening, which is 'Fear'. And for most that's where the seeking ends, perhaps for many lifetimes. |
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Post by Beingist on Feb 16, 2012 11:43:39 GMT -5
True, what one finds though, is not actually a simple decision to wake up or not. What is found is the first obstacle to awakening, which is 'Fear'. And for most that's where the seeking ends, perhaps for many lifetimes. Fear rooted in attachment and aversion. ... Ah, forget it. |
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Post by therealfake on Feb 16, 2012 11:58:16 GMT -5
True, what one finds though, is not actually a simple decision to wake up or not. What is found is the first obstacle to awakening, which is 'Fear'. And for most that's where the seeking ends, perhaps for many lifetimes. Fear rooted in attachment and aversion. The 'Fear' is real, in that it takes over the mind and body. And talking or intellectualizing about it is helpful. What's important is that which replaces the support system that has worked so well, and now has a catastrophic failure. And the 'Fear' of that is not associated with attachment or an aversion, but rather how one copes under a new reality of awakening. |
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Post by quinn on Feb 16, 2012 12:57:43 GMT -5
enigma, I think ego is much tougher than you realize. It happens spontaneously, through interest? But then you say that the only thing we can do is notice. Is that doing not a form of volition? How can you say that your use of noticing here is different from my use of voluntary attention? You actually offer no way of breaking free from ego. You say: "Where the attention of awareness lands is critical". I agree wholeheartedly. However, if we wait for it to land *spontaneously*, from interest, we can wait our whole life, and die, without becoming free. We are what we say "I" to. You don't offer a real way to pass from ego-functioning to awareness. You don't offer a way to cease saying "I" to ego so that one can be awareness. What you seem to say is it either happens, or it doesn't. I can't accept that..........sdp Yeah, I'd have to say that's how it is. Almost everybody dies without becoming free. It's not a very upbeat message, but I suspect you've heard it before. Still, if there's a deep longing to realize Truth, and it's sincere, I would say the probability is very high you will awaken. A sincere longing is very rare. Even most of those who have a sincere desire, don't actually want what Truth is, since it is the end of the wanter. That's why trying to talk about what Truth actually is can be useful. Most will find they want something else. And for those of us who find "almost everybody dies without becoming free" to be too sweeping (and limiting) a statement, there's this from Adya...... "Everything's natural tendency is to self-liberate. That's the good news. Whatever is held is what keeps total realization from happening. So when you don't seem to be self-liberating, you are holding on to something static, ideas or memories." "The unknown, our true nature, has the capacity to wake itself up when you start to fall in love with letting go of all the mental structures you hold onto. Contemplate this: there is no such thing as a true belief." |
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Post by Beingist on Feb 16, 2012 13:17:39 GMT -5
And for those of us who find "almost everybody dies without becoming free" to be too sweeping (and limiting) a statement, there's this from Adya...... "Everything's natural tendency is to self-liberate. That's the good news. Whatever is held is what keeps total realization from happening. So when you don't seem to be self-liberating, you are holding on to something static, ideas or memories." "The unknown, our true nature, has the capacity to wake itself up when you start to fall in love with letting go of all the mental structures you hold onto. Contemplate this: there is no such thing as a true belief." I watched that video, recently (or, at least one where he says something quite similar). I swear, Adya SO nails it, sometimes. Along the lines of folks dying, I recently had an experience worth sharing... As some of you are aware, my best friend's mom died recently. At 81, she was on dialysis and chemo until her system just couldn't take anymore of it, and until her son, my friend said, "mom, fighting to stay alive is killing you." She laughed, and nodded. Then, she surrendered, and rather contentedly. She passed on two days later. I tried explaining to my friend that within that short exchange, and the surrendering that followed, lies Life's most significant lessons. |
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Post by quinn on Feb 16, 2012 15:16:03 GMT -5
I swear, Adya SO nails it, sometimes. That he do.  |
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Post by kate on Feb 16, 2012 20:02:43 GMT -5
Yeah, I'd have to say that's how it is. Almost everybody dies without becoming free. It's not a very upbeat message, but I suspect you've heard it before. Still, if there's a deep longing to realize Truth, and it's sincere, I would say the probability is very high you will awaken. A sincere longing is very rare. Even most of those who have a sincere desire, don't actually want what Truth is, since it is the end of the wanter. That's why trying to talk about what Truth actually is can be useful. Most will find they want something else. And for those of us who find "almost everybody dies without becoming free" to be too sweeping (and limiting) a statement, there's this from Adya...... "Everything's natural tendency is to self-liberate. That's the good news. Whatever is held is what keeps total realization from happening. So when you don't seem to be self-liberating, you are holding on to something static, ideas or memories." "The unknown, our true nature, has the capacity to wake itself up when you start to fall in love with letting go of all the mental structures you hold onto. Contemplate this: there is no such thing as a true belief." I'm not totally sure of what you mean by "sweeping (and limiting)" but it is a completely true statement. And yes, I think that quote from Adya goes some way to explaining why it's true. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 16, 2012 20:08:58 GMT -5
Yeah, I'd have to say that's how it is. Almost everybody dies without becoming free. It's not a very upbeat message, but I suspect you've heard it before. Still, if there's a deep longing to realize Truth, and it's sincere, I would say the probability is very high you will awaken. A sincere longing is very rare. Even most of those who have a sincere desire, don't actually want what Truth is, since it is the end of the wanter. That's why trying to talk about what Truth actually is can be useful. Most will find they want something else. Yep, I'll second that. That's why we say whether peeps wake up or not is a total mystery. I'd say that enigma and zd carry an enormous amount of authority here, maybe more than anybody else. That's why such posting is so very sad. A deep longing to realize truth gives one a certain orientation, however, it can't carry you all the way to the end. A deep longing to recognize the truth can help one find the way. Awakening doesn't just happen, and noticing stuff is not enough. Ego is the slave of maya. Ego always follows the path of least resistance (however, sometimes that path is a path of false intense struggle). Why do I say false struggle? Because the way to awakening is a real struggle, against ego/personality. What is the struggle? It's simply seeing what ego is, observing ego. Why is it a struggle? Because the last thing ego wants is for light to be shed upon it. Ego hides in the shadows. The salmon swimming upstream to spawn is an apt symbol for the struggle to awaken. The salmon is relentless, finally finds the place if its birth, exhausted, spawns, and then dies. The struggle to awaken is from making what's called conscious efforts. These are efforts to awaken. This involves interior work using one's attention and awareness. Attention and awareness already exist outside the boundary of ego/personality. Ego binds them by always keeping them focused on itself. Ego steals our attention. A conscious effort would be to separate out one's attention from being captured by ego. This would be to observe ego, our thoughts, emotions and actions. The path of least resistance is to always go with ego. Whatever happens is the path of personality. This would be the salmon swimming with the current, downstream. Few people awaken because (most) everybody is swimming with the current. And this is essentially what enigma and zd are advising, sadly. You'll say no, no, no, you don't understand, bla, bla, bla. But I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to everybody who recognizes you (two) as authority. Don't accept any authority, me included. Seek, explore, experiment, find out the truth for yourself. Are conscious efforts easy? Absolutely not. They go against what ego wants. They weaken ego, take the energy out of ego. Where does this energy that's saved go? It moves us towards a connection with this deeper level of ourselves, sometimes called the unborn, sometimes Self, sometimes no-self, sometimes our essence. Yes, it's the part of us that is already awake. But as long as we function through ego/personality/cultural self/false self/persona, we are not, IT. I'm just asking, what is your experience? Shortly, I'll post an experimental example that shows the extent of our consciousness. Anybody who has ever tried to meditate knows how ego jumps back to the foreground trying to take control, continually. Anybody can be the salmon who tries to swim upstream, but it takes courage, will and an aim that requires the wish to do so. Virtually everybody swims downstream, stays asleep, dies asleep. sdp |
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Post by enigma on Feb 16, 2012 20:26:57 GMT -5
Courage, devotion, effort, willingness, sincerity, dedication to truth at all cost, all very good things on the pathless path.
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Post by Beingist on Feb 16, 2012 20:36:11 GMT -5
Few people awaken because (most) everybody is swimming with the current. And this is essentially what enigma and zd are advising, sadly. You'l say no, no, no, you don't understand, bla, bla, bla. But I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to everybody who recognizes you (two) as authority. Don't accept any authority, me included. Seek, explore, experiment, find out the truth for yourself. Are conscious efforts easy? Absolutely not. They go against what ego wants. They weaken ego, take the energy out of ego. Where does this energy that's saved go? It moves us towards a connection with this deeper level of ourselves, sometimes called the unborn, sometimes Self, sometimes no-self, sometimes our essence. Yes, it's the part of us that is already awake. But as long as we function through ego/personality/cultural self/false self/persona, we are not, IT. I'm just asking, what is your experience? sdp Since you asked, pilgrim ... I've long been a blazer of my own trail, and have long failed to place complete trust in any person. In some ways, such can be a disadvantage, because it can make the path a little more bumpy. It can also lead to a sort of ... pride for having done everything yourself. In any event, no one's my teacher, and one of my mottoes has long been, "question (all) authority". ZD and Enigma are no different, even IF they ARE authorities, which I don't think they are. I couldn't disagree more with the notion that either or both of them "advise everyone to swim with the current." Have you noticed my obvious frustrations with some of the things that E. has said? Do you think I would be frustrated if he were advising me to swim with the current? No. Rather, what E. says comes from what he IS, and some of us have a problem with what he says, because we have a problem with what we think we are. In the end, it has nothing to do with them. I know this like I know that fresh peas are green. And, in following my own inner guru, I deal with my own ego through E.'s statements (of which little is even advice, really). Frankly, at times, what he says can piss me off to no end. But, I realize that me being pissed off is the problem that I need to look at, from essential awareness (as Steve would put it), not his problem to guide me through it. He knows this, as well. All he does, is be himself. ZD's approach, meanwhile, is completely different, but it still comes from the same place, and no doubt why they may both appear similar to you, is that they're both coming from that same place. With ZD, I simply most often just resonate. But in the case of both, real Peace is a rare commodity, and when one around you has it, the ego will fight it tooth and nail, because it doesn't want you to have it. And all the while all you have to do, is accept it. Hence, I accept them both, along with everyone else here, including you. That's my lesson, and why I'm a member of this forum. Ultimately, acceptance through surrender is the conscious effort we all need to make. That's what 'noticing' and 'attending' is even for--so that we 'see' what it is that we need to surrender. In that, is the realization that we seek. |
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Post by silence on Feb 16, 2012 20:46:40 GMT -5
Yep, I'll second that. That's why we say whether peeps wake up or not is a total mystery. I'd say that enigma and zd carry an enormous amount of authority here, maybe more than anybody else. That's why such posting is so very sad. A deep longing to realize truth gives one a certain orientation, however, it can't carry you all the way to the end. A deep longing to recognize the truth can help one find the way. Awakening doesn't just happen, and noticing stuff is not enough. Ego is the slave of maya. Ego always follows the path of least resistance (however, sometimes that path is a path of false intense struggle). Why do I say false struggle? Because the way to awakening is a real struggle, against ego/personality. What is the struggle? It's simply seeing what ego is, observing ego. Why is it a struggle? Because the last thing ego wants is for light to be shed upon it. Ego hides in the shadows. The salmon swimming upstream to spawn is an apt symbol for the struggle to awaken. The salmon is relentless, finally finds the place if its birth, exhausted, spawns, and then dies. The struggle to awaken is from making what's called conscious efforts. These are efforts to awaken. This involves interior work using one's attention and awareness. Attention and awareness already exist outside the boundary of ego/personality. Ego binds them by always keeping them focused on itself. Ego steals our attention. A conscious effort would be to separate out one's attention from being captured by ego. This would be to observe ego, our thoughts, emotions and actions. The path of least resistance is to always go with ego. Whatever happens is the path of personality. This would be the salmon swimming with the current, downstream. Few people awaken because (most) everybody is swimming with the current. And this is essentially what enigma and zd are advising, sadly. You'll say no, no, no, you don't understand, bla, bla, bla. But I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to everybody who recognizes you (two) as authority. Don't accept any authority, me included. Seek, explore, experiment, find out the truth for yourself. Are conscious efforts easy? Absolutely not. They go against what ego wants. They weaken ego, take the energy out of ego. Where does this energy that's saved go? It moves us towards a connection with this deeper level of ourselves, sometimes called the unborn, sometimes Self, sometimes no-self, sometimes our essence. Yes, it's the part of us that is already awake. But as long as we function through ego/personality/cultural self/false self/persona, we are not, IT. I'm just asking, what is your experience? Shortly, I'll post an experimental example that shows the extent of our consciousness. Anybody who has ever tried to meditate knows how ego jumps back to the foreground trying to take control, continually. Anybody can be the salmon who tries to swim upstream, but it takes courage, will and an aim that requires the wish to do so. Virtually everybody swims downstream, stays asleep, dies asleep. sdp You may want to look and see if this 'ego' thing is as real as you make it out to be. That however may collapse your ability to cast a villain in your story which would make things less exciting. |
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Post by kate on Feb 16, 2012 20:48:59 GMT -5
Yep, I'll second that. That's why we say whether peeps wake up or not is a total mystery. I'd say that enigma and zd carry an enormous amount of authority here, maybe more than anybody else. That's why such posting is so very sad. A deep longing to realize truth gives one a certain orientation, however, it can't carry you all the way to the end. A deep longing to recognize the truth can help one find the way. Awakening doesn't just happen, and noticing stuff is not enough. Ego is the slave of maya. Ego always follows the path of least resistance (however, sometimes that path is a path of false intense struggle). Why do I say false struggle? Because the way to awakening is a real struggle, against ego/personality. What is the struggle? It's simply seeing what ego is, observing ego. Why is it a struggle? Because the last thing ego wants is for light to be shed upon it. Ego hides in the shadows. The salmon swimming upstream to spawn is an apt symbol for the struggle to awaken. The salmon is relentless, finally finds the place if its birth, exhausted, spawns, and then dies. The struggle to awaken is from making what's called conscious efforts. These are efforts to awaken. This involves interior work using one's attention and awareness. Attention and awareness already exist outside the boundary of ego/personality. Ego binds them by always keeping them focused on itself. Ego steals our attention. A conscious effort would be to separate out one's attention from being captured by ego. This would be to observe ego, our thoughts, emotions and actions. The path of least resistance is to always go with ego. Whatever happens is the path of personality. This would be the salmon swimming with the current, downstream. Few people awaken because (most) everybody is swimming with the current. And this is essentially what enigma and zd are advising, sadly. You'll say no, no, no, you don't understand, bla, bla, bla. But I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to everybody who recognizes you (two) as authority. Don't accept any authority, me included. Seek, explore, experiment, find out the truth for yourself. Are conscious efforts easy? Absolutely not. They go against what ego wants. They weaken ego, take the energy out of ego. Where does this energy that's saved go? It moves us towards a connection with this deeper level of ourselves, sometimes called the unborn, sometimes Self, sometimes no-self, sometimes our essence. Yes, it's the part of us that is already awake. But as long as we function through ego/personality/cultural self/false self/persona, we are not, IT. I'm just asking, what is your experience? Shortly, I'll post an experimental example that shows the extent of our consciousness. Anybody who has ever tried to meditate knows how ego jumps back to the foreground trying to take control, continually. Anybody can be the salmon who tries to swim upstream, but it takes courage, will and an aim that requires the wish to do so. Virtually everybody swims downstream, stays asleep, dies asleep. sdp There seems to be a regular assumption made by people who take issue with zendancer, enigma and some others, that those who find them helpful must be blindly and ignorantly clinging to what they say under the spell of some pretty words or something. I'd just like to put it out there that maybe, possibly, so many people are interested in what they say because those people are seeeing for themselves what these guys are pointing to. That in fact, what ZD, enigma, etc say mirrors what people see or have seen in their own experience. I can't talk for anyone else but I am not here to find a meaningless guru to dance around. If I can't see something for myself, if it is not clear in my own experience, then I am not interested. I think it's a fairly significant assumption to be making that people on this forum, of all places, are so uninterested in the truth that they would blindly go along with things said without looking for themselves to see if it's true. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 16, 2012 21:13:34 GMT -5
.....consciousness has quite visible and observable degrees, certainly visible and observable in oneself.
First, there is duration: how long one was conscious.
Second, frequency of appearance: how often one became conscious.
Third, the extent and penetration: of what one was conscious, which can vary very much with the growth of man. ............
...........consciousness can be made continuous and controllable by special efforts and special study. (now the experiment, note sdp)
I shall try to explain how consciousnes can be studied. Take a watch and look at the second hand, trying to be aware of yourself, and concentrating on the thought, "I am Peter Ouspensky", "I am now here". Try not to think about anything else, simply follow the movements of the second hand and be aware of yourself, your name, your existence, and the place where you are. Keep all other thoughts away.
You will, if you are persistent, be able to do this for two minutes. This is the limit of your consciousness. ..........
This experiment shows that a man, in his natural state, can with great effort be conscious of one subject (himself) for two minutes.
The most important deduction one can make after making this experiment in the right way is that man is not conscious of himself. The illusion of his being conscious of himself is created by memory and thought processes.
The Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution, by PD Ouspensky, 1950, 1954, 1973, 1974, 1981, pgs 18-20
(note by sdp, use the words to use your thought to guide you to your awareness. If you can, do this with awareness, not thought. Why? Because awareness is not thought).
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Post by kate on Feb 16, 2012 21:25:19 GMT -5
There seems to be a regular assumption made by people who take issue with zendancer, enigma and some others, that those who find them helpful must be blindly and ignorantly clinging to what they say under the spell of some pretty words or something. I'd just like to put it out there that maybe, possibly, so many people are interested in what they say because those people are seeeing for themselves what these guys are pointing to. That in fact, what ZD, enigma, etc say mirrors what people see or have seen in their own experience. I can't talk for anyone else but I am not here to find a meaningless guru to dance around. If I can't see something for myself, if it is not clear in my own experience, then I am not interested. I think it's a fairly significant assumption to be making that people on this forum, of all places, are so uninterested in the truth that they would blindly go along with things said without looking for themselves to see if it's true. everything looks truthful from the right perspective folks choose the persons perspective they are going to look from based on what makes them more comfortable While this may be the case for some it isn't the case for me. If I wanted to be comfortable I'd be somewhere else. |
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Post by Beingist on Feb 16, 2012 22:11:40 GMT -5
Just to add some confusion, you DO have the option to do that. Does this mean the forum will be disbanded?  Where else to get such wonderful entertainment? |
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