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Post by Beingist on Feb 5, 2012 9:07:22 GMT -5
Okay thanks, yes I can relate to that. In which case, what are you suggesting that 'truthin' is exactly? I can only tell you what it not is and that usually comes off as condescending, dismissive and all kinds of strange animosities...  Yeah.  |
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Post by Beingist on Feb 5, 2012 9:17:08 GMT -5
Okay. "Truthin'" is THIS, and THIS is a verb. Does that help? Truthin' doesn't look LIKE anything; it is unimaginable. I'm struggling to put the pieces together....I thought truthin' was a way of seeing (or how to see)? Based on this, maybe instead of 'This' it should be 'This-ing'. In which case, wouldnt Stillness's pondering be just as much 'truthin' or 'This-ing' as anything else? Can you put the pieces together for me please? You've got to work for that big old cup of coffee this morning hehe. THIS-ing works for me.  You know, to me, it's sometimes disappointing (to the mind, anyway) that THIS can't even be discussed, described, or defined. It's Being, but it's ... not Being, really. It's 'attending', 'noticing', 'being still', but at the same time, it's really none of those. You can't explain it, because it's experiential, but it's still not an experience. How does a shoe tell what it means to be a shoe? How does what IS describe itself as what is? It just is. But, our minds have all these beliefs about it, and so, invariably, in any discussion about THIS, it tends to seem best to only allude to what THIS isn't, so as to dispell those beliefs. |
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Post by andrew on Feb 5, 2012 9:26:10 GMT -5
I'm struggling to put the pieces together....I thought truthin' was a way of seeing (or how to see)? Based on this, maybe instead of 'This' it should be 'This-ing'. In which case, wouldnt Stillness's pondering be just as much 'truthin' or 'This-ing' as anything else? Can you put the pieces together for me please? You've got to work for that big old cup of coffee this morning hehe. THIS-ing works for me. You know, to me, it's sometimes disappointing (to the mind, anyway) that THIS can't even be discussed, described, or defined. It's Being, but it's ... not Being, really. It's 'attending', 'noticing', 'being still', but at the same time, it's really none of those. You can't explain it, because it's experiential, but it's still not an experience. How does a shoe tell what it means to be a shoe? How does what IS describe itself as what is? It just is. But, our minds have all these beliefs about it, and so, invariably, in any discussion about THIS, it tends to seem best to only allude to what THIS isn't, so as to dispell those beliefs. For me, there isnt any more truth in what This is than what This isnt, so Im kinda happy to drivel on either way depending on which way the conversation is going. I guess Im really just trying to find out how Exacto discerns between truthin and not truthin. The 'how to see' bit made sense to me. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 5, 2012 11:02:02 GMT -5
The mind can seem to obscure the truth but it can never truly do so. There may seem to be a very real process going on whereas the mind is loosening its grip. However, the obvious never becomes un-obvious. It can be seen right this moment if you wanted to see it more than the struggle, projection and grand stories you hold close. Silence, I get a little dismayed when I read this. It reminds me of my smoking dynamic - there's a me that wants to quit (because it's insane) and there's an apparently more influential me that doesn't want to quit (holds the 'smoker' persona close?). So the war continues and the split mind continues and it's annoying. The question becomes ... how does one want to quit? How does one no longer want to hold the struggle, projection and grand stories close? I seem to want to let them go, but apparently I don't really.  quinn .......... This is an excellent observation, a point of real honesty, you could say self-knowledge, even truth. I was going to read through all the posts and then write something relevant to the present conversation, but this seems a good place to put it. To begin with, I want to go back to the distinction between the menu and the actual food (it represents). Now, it's difficult on a forum to tell when someone has actually tasted the "chicken cordon bleu", and when they have read the menu, read the recipe, seen a picture or heard someone else talk about what it tastes like. But if I have tasted it and somebody says it's hot and spicy, I know they haven't tasted it. Now, we can say all day that the chicken cordon bleu is sitting right there on the table, but if you don't take a bite, you can't possibly know what it tastes like.....despite reading the menu, the recipe, or hearing someone else's description of what it tastes like. Now, all of this struggle is about the menu, the recipe and the description, mind events. I know quinn that you really do want to see, you really do want all the struggle to stop. I know it frustrating to hear someone else say, If you really wanted it, it's there, just taste it. You don't want to hear that mind can't obscure the truth, the obvious never becomes un-obvious. This is the whole point of the paradox of looking forward or looking backward. OK, now we get to what I was going to post later. In an earlier post (somewhere?) I described the nature of how the mind accumulates knowledge through memory through a nerve impulse passing a synaptic gap in the neural structure of the brain. I said, get a piece of white paper and draw a line on it, that's one synaptic gap activated causing a memory. In us, the paper is no longer white there are so many neural connections, and those neural connections are what form the basis of ego/cultural self. Let's make it more simple. The nature of your mind is like a mirror. If you put something in front of it, the mirror reflects it. The reflection in the mirror, we take to be our self. However, we are not the reflection, we are the mirror itself. The struggle you describe is one reflection fighting against another reflection, one (reflection) wants to smoke, one (reflection) wants to quit. The answer is neither quiting nor not-quiting. The answer is to find the mirror which is reflecting both. Now, can you find the mirror by reading these words? No, they're just a recipe. Every thought you have is just a reflection in the mirror. Every feeling you have is just a reflection in the mirror. Everything you do is just a reflection in the mirror. Now see your mind as a house of mirrors, with reflections reflecting reflections, and reflections of reflections reflectiong reflections. That is your ordinary mind. However, the basic nature of your mind is pure and clean and clear, still, even after all those images. The mirror is your awareness. You have to find your awareness. All day long thinking, feeling and doing is the center of our life. We *believe in* the reflections, it is who we are after all. Not. So, take just five minutes. When any thought comes up, try to find the mirror. When a feeling comes up, try to find the mirror. We're not after a silent mind. You can have a silent mind and still not find the mirror. When a thought comes (and it will in about 1/10 of a second), go to your awareness. Another thought comes, go to your awareness. You just have to play with this, explore, discover. Once you get a taste of discovering awareness (and this could take many, many five minute sessions, weeks, months even, for some even years, but some get it right away) we then come to a point of decision as to whether we like the reflections better or the awareness better. And then you expand to ten minutes. And then you expand to 1/2 hour. And then you expand to standing in line at the grocery store, and the ticket line. Then you expand to living through your awareness while eating, while driving, during commercials, during a movie.....and some day, during the Super Bowl, and then an hour, and then two hours.......and then at work, and then when you are having a fight with your wife. You just have to get in there and discover the mirror. Live through your awareness instead of your awareness being continually captured by the reflections in the mirror. sdp |
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Post by enigma on Feb 5, 2012 11:04:49 GMT -5
Yup, that's how I see the Tath issue too. I'l accept the consensus that the sdp issue with me is about practices, and I'll state that I don't have an issue with peeps doing practices, but I'll continue to point out the boundaries of such. What I see happening is that you point out the boundaries of practices, and then offer a practice yourself, and then dont see the boundaries of that practice. You see how angry sdp gets when I even hint at the ultimate futility of all of it. It makes you angry too, because it leaves you with a tool box full of useless tools. It leaves Steven angry because he's left with a book of 10,000 futile practices. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 5, 2012 11:09:31 GMT -5
What I see happening is that you point out the boundaries of practices, and then offer a practice yourself, and then dont see the boundaries of that practice. You see how angry sdp gets when I even hint at the ultimate futility of all of it. It makes you angry too, because it leaves you with a tool box full of useless tools. It leaves Steven angry because he's left with a book of 10,000 futile practices. No, it's just not true. I've always made the distinction, that ego can do nothing, but our awareness is already outside the field of ego. ............and, of course I agree with andrew........ sdp |
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Post by enigma on Feb 5, 2012 11:12:01 GMT -5
The mind can seem to obscure the truth but it can never truly do so. There may seem to be a very real process going on whereas the mind is loosening its grip. However, the obvious never becomes un-obvious. It can be seen right this moment if you wanted to see it more than the struggle, projection and grand stories you hold close. Silence, I get a little dismayed when I read this. It reminds me of my smoking dynamic - there's a me that wants to quit (because it's insane) and there's an apparently more influential me that doesn't want to quit (holds the 'smoker' persona close?). So the war continues and the split mind continues and it's annoying. The question becomes ... how does one want to quit? How does one no longer want to hold the struggle, projection and grand stories close? I seem to want to let them go, but apparently I don't really. It's true everybody wants the truth and doesn't want it, which takes the form of seeking a truth that supports personal goals, which is why spirituality becomes a circus. Face the truth of the battle and it ends. As Silence says, you're left with whatever you want most. You can't make yourself want what you don't want, because you don't want to. |
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Post by exactamente on Feb 5, 2012 11:13:33 GMT -5
What I see happening is that you point out the boundaries of practices, and then offer a practice yourself, and then dont see the boundaries of that practice. You see how angry sdp gets when I even hint at the ultimate futility of all of it. It makes you angry too, because it leaves you with a tool box full of useless tools. It leaves Steven angry because he's left with a book of 10,000 futile practices. And the funny thing is, if he has done his 10,000 practices over 10,000 years and suddenly sees clearly, others like him will say it's because of his practices that he now sees clearly. |
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Post by andrew on Feb 5, 2012 11:16:29 GMT -5
What I see happening is that you point out the boundaries of practices, and then offer a practice yourself, and then dont see the boundaries of that practice. You see how angry sdp gets when I even hint at the ultimate futility of all of it. It makes you angry too, because it leaves you with a tool box full of useless tools. It leaves Steven angry because he's left with a book of 10,000 futile practices. I dont have an issue with the idea of ultimate futility of all of it. I just dont think you can see the boundaries of the practice you offer. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 5, 2012 11:23:23 GMT -5
I'm struggling to put the pieces together....I thought truthin' was a way of seeing (or how to see)? Based on this, maybe instead of 'This' it should be 'This-ing'. In which case, wouldnt Stillness's pondering be just as much 'truthin' or 'This-ing' as anything else? Can you put the pieces together for me please? You've got to work for that big old cup of coffee this morning hehe. THIS-ing works for me. You know, to me, it's sometimes disappointing (to the mind, anyway) that THIS can't even be discussed, described, or defined. It's Being, but it's ... not Being, really. It's 'attending', 'noticing', 'being still', but at the same time, it's really none of those. You can't explain it, because it's experiential, but it's still not an experience. How does a shoe tell what it means to be a shoe? How does what IS describe itself as what is? It just is. But, our minds have all these beliefs about it, and so, invariably, in any discussion about THIS, it tends to seem best to only allude to what THIS isn't, so as to dispell those beliefs. Good stuff Beingist. I'm still reading through the posts in order to catch up. Seems my last post was relative to the discussion that had followed.........(and here?)...... sdp |
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Post by andrew on Feb 5, 2012 11:25:21 GMT -5
Silence, I get a little dismayed when I read this. It reminds me of my smoking dynamic - there's a me that wants to quit (because it's insane) and there's an apparently more influential me that doesn't want to quit (holds the 'smoker' persona close?). So the war continues and the split mind continues and it's annoying. The question becomes ... how does one want to quit? How does one no longer want to hold the struggle, projection and grand stories close? I seem to want to let them go, but apparently I don't really. You can't make yourself want what you don't want, because you don't want to. If there is even a small part of you (or anyone else) that wants something, it can be made more compelling and attractive. For example, there are many that SAY they want to lose weight but really its only a small part of them that does. They can see logically and rationally and intelligently that losing weight is a good option, they just dont really want to lose weight. There are ways of making the small part compelling and attractive and at the same time create an adversity to the formerly big part. This can be applied to enlightenment. Its a way of dealing with self-sabotage if we notice it but cant seem to get beyond it. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 5, 2012 11:32:15 GMT -5
You see how angry sdp gets when I even hint at the ultimate futility of all of it. It makes you angry too, because it leaves you with a tool box full of useless tools. It leaves Steven angry because he's left with a book of 10,000 futile practices. And the funny thing is, if he has done his 10,000 practices over 10,000 years and suddenly sees clearly, others like him will say it's because of his practices that he now sees clearly. No. Buddha said there is such a thing as right mindfulness. Meaning, any-ole-practice doesn't get results. Right mindfulness gets results (one Buddha said, is freedom from suffering). sdp |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 5, 2012 11:39:10 GMT -5
You can't make yourself want what you don't want, because you don't want to. That's quite true, quite profound, and actually a paraphrase of Schopenhauer (who understood man's predicament, but had no solutions). sdp |
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Post by enigma on Feb 5, 2012 11:39:50 GMT -5
You see how angry sdp gets when I even hint at the ultimate futility of all of it. It makes you angry too, because it leaves you with a tool box full of useless tools. It leaves Steven angry because he's left with a book of 10,000 futile practices. And the funny thing is, if he has done his 10,000 practices over 10,000 years and suddenly sees clearly, others like him will say it's because of his practices that he now sees clearly. Yup, even some self realized teachers will be truthin that when talking to somebody who is addicted to practices/doing, and then the practicers will quote them as proof that practices work and are needed. |
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Post by exactamente on Feb 5, 2012 11:43:35 GMT -5
You see how angry sdp gets when I even hint at the ultimate futility of all of it. It makes you angry too, because it leaves you with a tool box full of useless tools. It leaves Steven angry because he's left with a book of 10,000 futile practices. I dont have an issue with the idea of ultimate futility of all of it. I just dont think you can see the boundaries of the practice you offer. What practice does he offer? I see him only talking about noticing which he admits is effortless. How do you practice effortlessness? |
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