Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 4, 2012 22:43:50 GMT -5
....Bumping enigma's original post, and highlighting where I disagree......
Subtitle: What's true for some is not true for all.
I keep dipping into the nondual pool of writers/teachers, have done so for some twenty-odd years, forty if you count Zen and Taoism and such. I'll get to my point, and then back up some...
I have invariably been turned off by the teaching that we're all already there so there is nothing we can do to get there, and in fact, trying to get there is the chief obstruction to realizing we're already there.......
This is the biggest load of crap I've ever heard, yet true, in part.
It's true that there is an aspect of our being which emerges from the whole, is connected with the whole. But it is also true that for most of us, >we< are not >it<. But also, some have had the recognition of unity with the whole.
Now, some have had the recognition via following a traditional path, a trail left behind by others, and in turn, leave a trail (although sometimes it's just a trail of bread-crumbs).
Some, the nondual teachers, have come to recognize the oneness, by way sort of like a quantum leap that does not traverse either time or space, but appears seemingly without cause (this quantum nature of reality is scientifically well established, has been demonstrated to be accurate more than any other scientific theory in history). Not knowing how they came to be in the state they are, they claim that there is no way to get there.
This is where error creeps in, and thus the paradox.
Now, it's not a problem for those who are members of the "club", but it is a problem for the student, because there is a way, there is a path, there is a trail. It causes problems for the student, as they are left up s**t creek without a paddle.
On the (Nondual) Enlightened side, there is looking backward and seeing no trail, true.
On the un-Enlightened side there is looking forward, hearing that there is no trail, and feeling helpless. This is not-true, there is a path, mostly centered around working with attention and awareness, interior practices.
So, the majority of my problem with nondual teaching is this paradox, the confusion it causes for students. And when I hear anyone say there is no way and nothing can be done, I know that they only have partial truth. The truth is that ego can do nothing, but this doesn't mean that nothing can be done.
stardustpilgrim
The timeless nature of realization doesn't have anything to do with quantum physics. Time, and therefore movement and progression, are illusions formed in mind, and the realization of oneness is prior to mind and it's temporal and spatial illusions. Realization is timeless because it's not conceptual mind that realizes. I think everybody has had the 'experience' of realizing something timelessly, as in the classic 'AHA!' moment of the scientist, but the noticing of the timeless nature of this realization also has to be noticed timelessly, since there is not a linear 'realization experience' that mind can recall. What is seen in the realization is seen whole and complete in the moment of seeing, and there is no concept about it until mind forms one, but the linear concept is not the realization, only a conceptual reflection of it. When a teacher wants to talk about a realization, he must 'look again now', and conceptualize what is seen timelessly, using mind and it's concepts.
The teacher calls it a realization because it is not a time based reflection/conceptualization. He might say there is only the present moment because he realizes the illusory nature of linear time and how it is formed in mind. It's clear that this realization cannot be at the other end of a progression in time, and is therefore available here and now only. Any seeming progression is only a conceptual idea formed in mind, and no actual movement toward or away from this truth is possible. This is why some teachers will say that their seeking was irrelevant and had nothing to do with the realization.
So he might say there is no path that leads to truth as one never left it and can't get closer to it. Imagining that something has to be done in order to arrive at truth then becomes an obstacle to this timeless realization. Attention is not turned toward what is so, now, because it is believed that a few more lifetimes of horse stances are required. It doesn't mean that nothing can be done so much as the doing is not the meaningful progression that it appears to be. It also doesn't mean that doing is not necessary in order to exhaust the doing or that an exploration of illusion is not required in order to release the attachment to, and focus on, these illusions. There is work to be done, and the work may increase the potential of realization, but it cannot be said that one can get closer to truth, as one IS the truth one seeks, and it cannot be said that the work is required in order for realization to occur as it is such ideas of progress that actually prevent the turning toward this realization.
It cannot be said that any method, path or practice leads to realization, though it can be said that the appropriate path leads to the end of the seeking, which is the goal of the seeking. No seeking, as such, results in finding, only in the futility of the seeking. In this futility, attention is released from the seeking, and naturally turns toward what is always the case right now, which is the realization one was seeking. It was never hidden but only not attended to because of the belief that mind needs to do something, and therein lies the importance of pointing out that nothing needs to be done. It's not a prescription for doing nothing, but rather a pointer toward the fact that what is sought is already here. IOW, being "up sh*t creek without a paddle" is where you actually need to be. "Helpless and hopeless" is eggzakly what you should feel.
My beef is not just with enigma but with many nondual teachers. What enigma says above is that the purpose of practice is to eventually see that practice doesn't do anything......except to show us practice doesn't do anything......except to exhaust the feel of the need for practice.....bla, bla, bla...ya-da, ya-da, ya-da....
This doesn't seem to concur with what Annamalai Swami taught.
A.S. also said that some people found Self-inquiry difficult. For these he said "Bhagavan would sometimes tell such people to watch the breath, to see where it arose. Bhagavan always maintained that mind and breath arose in the same place, so focusing attention on the source of the breath is really the same as focusing the attention on the source of the mind through self-inquiry". pg 65, Final Talks
This concurrs with everything I have posted since Nov. 2011, here.
sdp
I keep dipping into the nondual pool of writers/teachers, have done so for some twenty-odd years, forty if you count Zen and Taoism and such. I'll get to my point, and then back up some...
I have invariably been turned off by the teaching that we're all already there so there is nothing we can do to get there, and in fact, trying to get there is the chief obstruction to realizing we're already there.......
This is the biggest load of crap I've ever heard, yet true, in part.
It's true that there is an aspect of our being which emerges from the whole, is connected with the whole. But it is also true that for most of us, >we< are not >it<. But also, some have had the recognition of unity with the whole.
Now, some have had the recognition via following a traditional path, a trail left behind by others, and in turn, leave a trail (although sometimes it's just a trail of bread-crumbs).
Some, the nondual teachers, have come to recognize the oneness, by way sort of like a quantum leap that does not traverse either time or space, but appears seemingly without cause (this quantum nature of reality is scientifically well established, has been demonstrated to be accurate more than any other scientific theory in history). Not knowing how they came to be in the state they are, they claim that there is no way to get there.
This is where error creeps in, and thus the paradox.
Now, it's not a problem for those who are members of the "club", but it is a problem for the student, because there is a way, there is a path, there is a trail. It causes problems for the student, as they are left up s**t creek without a paddle.
On the (Nondual) Enlightened side, there is looking backward and seeing no trail, true.
On the un-Enlightened side there is looking forward, hearing that there is no trail, and feeling helpless. This is not-true, there is a path, mostly centered around working with attention and awareness, interior practices.
So, the majority of my problem with nondual teaching is this paradox, the confusion it causes for students. And when I hear anyone say there is no way and nothing can be done, I know that they only have partial truth. The truth is that ego can do nothing, but this doesn't mean that nothing can be done.
stardustpilgrim
The timeless nature of realization doesn't have anything to do with quantum physics. Time, and therefore movement and progression, are illusions formed in mind, and the realization of oneness is prior to mind and it's temporal and spatial illusions. Realization is timeless because it's not conceptual mind that realizes. I think everybody has had the 'experience' of realizing something timelessly, as in the classic 'AHA!' moment of the scientist, but the noticing of the timeless nature of this realization also has to be noticed timelessly, since there is not a linear 'realization experience' that mind can recall. What is seen in the realization is seen whole and complete in the moment of seeing, and there is no concept about it until mind forms one, but the linear concept is not the realization, only a conceptual reflection of it. When a teacher wants to talk about a realization, he must 'look again now', and conceptualize what is seen timelessly, using mind and it's concepts.
The teacher calls it a realization because it is not a time based reflection/conceptualization. He might say there is only the present moment because he realizes the illusory nature of linear time and how it is formed in mind. It's clear that this realization cannot be at the other end of a progression in time, and is therefore available here and now only. Any seeming progression is only a conceptual idea formed in mind, and no actual movement toward or away from this truth is possible. This is why some teachers will say that their seeking was irrelevant and had nothing to do with the realization.
So he might say there is no path that leads to truth as one never left it and can't get closer to it. Imagining that something has to be done in order to arrive at truth then becomes an obstacle to this timeless realization. Attention is not turned toward what is so, now, because it is believed that a few more lifetimes of horse stances are required. It doesn't mean that nothing can be done so much as the doing is not the meaningful progression that it appears to be. It also doesn't mean that doing is not necessary in order to exhaust the doing or that an exploration of illusion is not required in order to release the attachment to, and focus on, these illusions. There is work to be done, and the work may increase the potential of realization, but it cannot be said that one can get closer to truth, as one IS the truth one seeks, and it cannot be said that the work is required in order for realization to occur as it is such ideas of progress that actually prevent the turning toward this realization.
It cannot be said that any method, path or practice leads to realization, though it can be said that the appropriate path leads to the end of the seeking, which is the goal of the seeking. No seeking, as such, results in finding, only in the futility of the seeking. In this futility, attention is released from the seeking, and naturally turns toward what is always the case right now, which is the realization one was seeking. It was never hidden but only not attended to because of the belief that mind needs to do something, and therein lies the importance of pointing out that nothing needs to be done. It's not a prescription for doing nothing, but rather a pointer toward the fact that what is sought is already here. IOW, being "up sh*t creek without a paddle" is where you actually need to be. "Helpless and hopeless" is eggzakly what you should feel.
My beef is not just with enigma but with many nondual teachers. What enigma says above is that the purpose of practice is to eventually see that practice doesn't do anything......except to show us practice doesn't do anything......except to exhaust the feel of the need for practice.....bla, bla, bla...ya-da, ya-da, ya-da....
This doesn't seem to concur with what Annamalai Swami taught.
A.S. also said that some people found Self-inquiry difficult. For these he said "Bhagavan would sometimes tell such people to watch the breath, to see where it arose. Bhagavan always maintained that mind and breath arose in the same place, so focusing attention on the source of the breath is really the same as focusing the attention on the source of the mind through self-inquiry". pg 65, Final Talks
This concurrs with everything I have posted since Nov. 2011, here.
sdp
...........
)
