|
|
Post by figgles on Nov 17, 2015 11:47:36 GMT -5
Figgles... what were you yesterday? What are you today? Can you remember the exact moment of every breath that you took then and now? Does it always makes sense? Can you give explanations to all your movements through life, why and how you cried, laughed, decided, hoped, smiled, hated? Life is not linear, and there are no rules and rigid chess squares one needs to cross to get to the other side. What does any of that have to do with 'coming to clarity'? Indeed one may not recall every detail surrounding the movement from being unclear to clear, but you seem to recall quite well that when you came to jed Material, you were devoid of ego, and yet seeking clarity. That's the part I'm asking about. If there were a complete dissolving of ego, there would be no seeking for anything. It is identification with ego, attachment to an idea/belief, that causes the itch to seek, the sense that There is something missing from "THIS"....something I need to be or do or see that I currently do not have. When that is gone, seeking in all forms is gone...no longer any impetus to read a book by a certain author in hopes of gaining something called 'clarity.' I am just very curious to hear how you could be devoid of all ego, all sense of an "I", and yet still seeking. "Seeking" is all about a 'me'...a 'me' who thinks it needs something beyond 'this.' My questioning is borne out of interest in this specific conversation. There is no longer a sense here of needing to understand anything in particular about "this." The loss you speak of, and the seeing that all value is subjectively assigned, is part & parcel of coming into clarity....Absent ego, identification, absent attachment to any idea/belief, there is nothing standing in the way of this seeing. |
|
|
|
Post by figgles on Nov 17, 2015 13:36:26 GMT -5
The loss you speak of, and the seeing that all value is subjectively assigned, is part & parcel of coming into clarity....Absent ego, identification, absent attachment to any idea/belief, there is nothing standing in the way of this seeing. I see. Perhaps, you could tell me what Ego dissolution is for you, because from the above it seems that you equate it with the absence of Ego, and I may be wrong there. Yes, if ego dissolution has happened, it would be accurate to say it is absent, wouldn't it? But Along with that you also said: Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/1902/jed-mckenna?page=10&scrollTo=298152#ixzz3rh1QyNpX& again, If there was no 'identification with me', that would surely mean no identification with any idea/thought, 'cause that's all "identfication with me" really is, and thus, no obscuring of clarity. You also said you came to Jed's books seeking clarity....and I am trying to understand why/how that would/could be IF there'd already been dissolution of ego, psychological death and no identification with a 'me.' Dissolution of ego, psychological death and a total absence of identification with a 'me' = an absence of attachment to ideas/thought, which = Clarity. ..or perhaps when you refer to 'clarity' you are speaking about the taking on of some knowing or understanding rather than the falling away/seeing through of such? |
|
|
|
Post by figgles on Nov 17, 2015 14:08:13 GMT -5
Yes, if ego dissolution has happened, it would be accurate to say it is absent, wouldn't it? But Along with that you also said: Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/1902/jed-mckenna?page=10&scrollTo=298152#ixzz3rh1QyNpX& again, If there was no 'identification with me', that would surely mean no identification with any idea/thought, 'cause that's all "identfication with me" really is, and thus, no obscuring of clarity. You also said you came to Jed's books seeking clarity....and I am trying to understand why/how that would/could be IF there'd already been dissolution of ego, psychological death and no identification with a 'me.' Dissolution of ego, psychological death and a total absence of identification with a 'me' = an absence of attachment to ideas/thought, which = Clarity. ..or perhaps when you refer to 'clarity' you are speaking about the taking on of some knowing or understanding rather than the falling away/seeing through of such? Figgles, I appreciate the questions, since they allow me to go further along.. I do struggle with giving names to the raw experience, so I feel we can come at it from a different angle. Will reply tomorrow (late in SE Asia huh...) Thank you. No worries Tano.... I appreciate you engaging me. Indeed it can be difficult talking about all of this, and often there are differences in terminology used that amount to one person talking oranges, while the other is talking apples. |
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Nov 17, 2015 18:11:37 GMT -5
As it would seem, Is the forum itself. Yes. That's why I left. Seeking is seeking because there's a chance one will find, and the search will end.  |
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Nov 17, 2015 18:14:23 GMT -5
But you said the reason you came to the books, after losing all identification with a 'me' was because despite that, you "had no clarity and wanted to see what had happened." Isn't that a 'wanting to know'? But you say you DID come to clarity at some point...?....How does one come to clarity without realizing what was obscuring it?..that said, I still don't understand how all identification could fall away and clarity be absent...if ALL identification falls away, there would be nothing left to obscure clarity...being unclear is all about identification...attachment to thoughts/ideas/stories. If you value clarity, then seeing what it is that obscures clarity, actually does make a difference. And do you regard that clarity and wisdom as valuable?...as making a difference? Figgles... what were you yesterday? What are you today? Can you remember the exact moment of every breath that you took then and now? Does it always makes sense? Can you give explanations to all your movements through life, why and how you cried, laughed, decided, hoped, smiled, hated? Life is not linear, and there are no rules and rigid chess squares one needs to cross to get to the other side. Your questioning is borne out of desire to understand, and you can't... untill you can. And then you will lose all understanding and will - be. Nothing has any value other than this, and even being is your insiginificant, 'blink in the eye of Eternity' moment. Does all thise make sense to you? I hope not.  that's one of his funniest double-entedres ... |
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Nov 17, 2015 18:16:18 GMT -5
Yes, the differences between Cohen and "Jed" are quite striking in this regard, aren't they?  keeping your head down...safe strategy...i dont blame him...but i dont believe him, either... There's an irony there, does it escape you?  |
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Nov 17, 2015 18:19:56 GMT -5
Given the obvious negative attachments he's engendered the preference for anonymity is more than understandable. It's amusing because often on these forums an individuals positive attachment to a teacher or a teaching is clear to everyone but the person so attached until it's pointed out. In Jed's case he's sort of like an anti-guru that way.  There is nothing wrong with attachments if one can stay in them with dispassionate observation and awareness. Well, whether or not it's still an "attachment" at that point is some great debate fodder. When the point of attachment's gone it get's pretty clear that they never were really all the same after all despite seeming that way. Some were sort of truth in disguise, as unconditional love is obviously none other than the absence of separation, though for peeps this can seem to come and go. |
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Nov 17, 2015 18:23:14 GMT -5
A nonexistent entity would have no concern for the question of what it was, now, would it?  |
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Nov 17, 2015 19:10:02 GMT -5
And I figured if he is not the real Jed (the person behind "Jed") then "Jed" would shut him down (legally if necessary)....or not, he could just be enjoying the 'show'. No one knows if the money goes to the same place. But like yourself, I see that the Forum and it's money making activites would be shut down, if it were not the same person behind Wisefool Press and the Forum. Well, whether or not the publisher would shut down an impostor might not be as clear cut as it might seem at first consideration. If they wanted to shut it down their leverage would depend both on the specifics of the intellectual property they've got (which is complicated by the pen name issue) and the claims made by the website publisher. And they might not want to because either they're not concerned about the reach of the site and/or no press is bad press. Tano, I respect your opinion that it's the same guy in the books, but I'm curious, did the guy you've skyped with ever explain why he asks for payment for the private sessions or write about that on either forum? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2015 9:09:18 GMT -5
keeping your head down...safe strategy...i dont blame him...but i dont believe him, either... There's an irony there, does it escape you? totally enlighten me please if it isnt just about semantics that is...  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2015 9:42:06 GMT -5
Quoting Tano--´´Culture is the most mind corrupting occurance. ANY culture´´ Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/1902/jed-mckenna?page=12#ixzz3rqvgKR4smaking a sweeping limiting statement about ´´culture´´ and specifically ALL cultures, isnt very prudent.Unless you are really really knowledgeable about these cultures. But you have just demonstrated that you arent.Sounds more like prejudice to me. You might have discovered that the indian culture has a huge database on spiritual ´´paths´´ or ´´training´´, if you prefer that word.The experience Jed describes is very well documented, and so is the knowledge he boasts. They had it for a very long time, and there is a variety of ways it has been interpreted. Others have followed the ´´spiral movement ´´ much longer than him and in much more favorable (cultural)circumstances, after being ´´done´´ and they come up with a variety of manners how to proceed (or, how not to proceed). About loss of ego
The conditioning does not miraculously disappear after being ´´done´´.it is still in place, but the part which you know to be You, (God, Truth,Spirit, Whatever)has only disconnected from it. Your body and your lifeforce,(´´vital´´lower chackras)are still the same as before.Remaining aware in ´´done-ness´´(sorry bad word i just made up) will confront you with this conditioning in a manner that will little by little erase this conditioning. Simple.Meditation in action,if you like, even though for the realised person ´´meditation´´ is not something one has to ´´do´´.It happens by itself. Integral yoga is a method to intensify and speed up this process.This is how consciousness of the life and physical plane expands,and with it, ever changing insight. Higher vibration can dissolve lower vibration, not the other way around.Low vibration can cloud or obstruct, but never dissolve...the higher vibe just withdraws from awareness.. Only staying aware and sticking with it will do the job.. And this one can already begin long before liberation.A Teacher or Guru can impart his light and freedom to a student, so as to assist him in uncovering obstacles..after liberation is there, the (former) student can begin to do this on his own, and even begin to help others who havent advanced to that point. ´´Up to now no liberated man has objected to the Guru- vada; it is usually only people who live in the mind or vital and have the pride of the mind and the arrogance of the vital that find it below their dignity to recognise a Guru´´´.(sri aurobindo-more lights on yoga). ´´Vivekananda, pointing out that the unity of all religions must necessarily express itself by an increasing richness of variety in its forms, said once that the perfect state of that essential unity would come when each man had his own religion, when not bound by sect or traditional form he followed the free selfadaptation of his nature in its relations with the Supreme.´´SA- the synthesis of yoga.p 58) referring to jed-- anonimity,solitude´´But for the sadhaka of the integral Yoga this inner or this outer solitude can only be incidents or periods in his spiritual progress. Accepting life, he has to bear not only his own burden, but a great part of the world’s burden too along with it, as a continuation of his own sufficiently heavy load. Therefore his Yoga has much more of the nature of a battle than others; but this is not only an individual battle, it is a collective war waged over a considerable country. He has not only to conquer in himself the forces of egoistic falsehood and disorder, but to conquer them as representatives of the same adverse and inexhaustible forces in the world. Their representative character gives them a much more obstinate capacity of resistance, an almost endless right to recurrence. Often he finds that even after he has won persistently his own personal battle, he has still to win it over and over again in a seemingly interminable war, because his inner existence has already been so much enlarged that not only it contains his own being with its well-defined needs and experiences, but is in solidarity with the being of others, because in himself he contains the universe. synthesis of yoga.p78 many teachings find this waaay too much work, and from where they stand it is unnecessary, since the physical manifestation ,and life, are mere illusions.That is an easy way out and accomplishes nothing other than the partial liberation of one individual,who, may be blessed with Freedom, but also impotent to act effectively on the world because he hasnt learned to master life, he just escaped from it.(main fault in buddism) hope this clarifies a bit.  |
|
|
|
Post by figgles on Nov 18, 2015 12:36:00 GMT -5
No worries Tano.... I appreciate you engaging me. Indeed it can be difficult talking about all of this, and often there are differences in terminology used that amount to one person talking oranges, while the other is talking apples. Figgles, I left my account here, felt more appropriate: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/4257/after-srThanks. Thanks for sharing. This bit resonated deeply: Is it really true though that 'most' don't see it? I've come to see that The story of a world filled with sleeping puppets and "I" am one of the few who is not sleeping, is as much a fairy tale as any other...I've seen that if we give up that story, "others" appearing in experience no longer look so 'sleepy.' .. Another fairy tale? Maybe. But, The story telling goes deep and in my experience, the most difficult one of all to see for what it is, can be the story of how different (and clear of seeing) I am from 'most' others in 'my world.' It's a story some folks seem to like to hang onto because it creates a sense of specialness. In his early books, Jed was really thumping this story, and had taken it to heart in the sense that he had difficulty bearing the company of others. (requiring an assistant to interface between him and a world 'in which he no longer functions very well' in, and barely being able to disguise his boredom and distaste when he meets up with his sister for lunch, hating california, probably because of the people there...etc.) Spiritual ego can be sneaky, and my sense is that the author of the books was demonstrating this. When approached from this perspective, the books are really quite brilliant...a character who awakens, but stumbles now and again back into drowsiness and then back out again...often without even realizing himself what's happened, thus, leaving that seeing to the reader...or not... There was only once I saw Jed allude to this being a story in his writing, in a later book I think, saying something akin to "In my dream, I get to play the part of an enlightened dude amidst a world of mostly unenlightened," or something similar. He WAS acknowledging that it was a pretty good dream to be having. I also see in that post that you DO make a distinction between ego dissolution (& dissolving?) and full absence of ego,...which is important. Exaggerated language often gets used in these conversations and this can be confusing. I agree, ego is never completely absent or fully dissolved. Seeing it is enough to render it non-problematic...and a complete absence of a 'me' would leave nothing for seeking of understanding or answers to arise from. So long as there's seeking to understand or see something that is deemed to be missing from this moment, you can rest assured, there is an idea of 'me' present. |
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Nov 18, 2015 16:58:08 GMT -5
Well, whether or not the publisher would shut down an impostor might not be as clear cut as it might seem at first consideration. If they wanted to shut it down their leverage would depend both on the specifics of the intellectual property they've got (which is complicated by the pen name issue) and the claims made by the website publisher. And they might not want to because either they're not concerned about the reach of the site and/or no press is bad press. Tano, I respect your opinion that it's the same guy in the books, but I'm curious, did the guy you've skyped with ever explain why he asks for payment for the private sessions or write about that on either forum? I never skyped with Jed, we only exchange e-mails. His skype activities are reserved only for those who seek, I wasn't, and he wouldn't take me on even if I wanted. I didn't want. He declined money that I offered him for his books, since I stole (torrented) all of them. Said he doesn't need money or such, and my country moving costs need addressing. He never explicitely explained it, but he would like to build a what he calls a study centre or ashram -- a physical one. He was looking to buy land for it. He only has one Forum in operation now. Oh, I see, thanks for explaining. I only read the first of the trilogy, does he give an account of what happened to the farm in the other two books? I have to admit to being surprised by the idea that the guy who wrote the first book would get the idea to deliberately build something like that, but life just ain't real life if it's not surprising, and there's no predicting what truth will do. |
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Nov 18, 2015 17:00:45 GMT -5
There's an irony there, does it escape you? totally enlighten me please if it isnt just about semantics that is... Well, what would you imagine the guy who wrote the books would say to you if you told him you didn't believe him? About anything. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2015 6:04:54 GMT -5
Quoting Tano--´´Culture is the most mind corrupting occurance. ANY culture´´ Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/1902/jed-mckenna?page=12#ixzz3rqvgKR4smaking a sweeping limiting statement about ´´culture´´ and specifically ALL cultures, isnt very prudent.Unless you are really really knowledgeable about these cultures. But you have just demonstrated that you arent.Sounds more like prejudice to me. You might have discovered that the indian culture has a huge database on spiritual ´´paths´´ or ´´training´´, if you prefer that word.The experience Jed describes is very well documented, and so is the knowledge he boasts. They had it for a very long time, and there is a variety of ways it has been interpreted. Others have followed the ´´spiral movement ´´ much longer than him and in much more favorable (cultural)circumstances, after being ´´done´´ and they come up with a variety of manners how to proceed (or, how not to proceed). About loss of ego
The conditioning does not miraculously disappear after being ´´done´´.it is still in place, but the part which you know to be You, (God, Truth,Spirit, Whatever)has only disconnected from it. Your body and your lifeforce,(´´vital´´lower chackras)are still the same as before.Remaining aware in ´´done-ness´´(sorry bad word i just made up) will confront you with this conditioning in a manner that will little by little erase this conditioning. Simple.Meditation in action,if you like, even though for the realised person ´´meditation´´ is not something one has to ´´do´´.It happens by itself. Integral yoga is a method to intensify and speed up this process.This is how consciousness of the life and physical plane expands,and with it, ever changing insight. Higher vibration can dissolve lower vibration, not the other way around.Low vibration can cloud or obstruct, but never dissolve...the higher vibe just withdraws from awareness.. Only staying aware and sticking with it will do the job.. And this one can already begin long before liberation.A Teacher or Guru can impart his light and freedom to a student, so as to assist him in uncovering obstacles..after liberation is there, the (former) student can begin to do this on his own, and even begin to help others who havent advanced to that point. ´´Up to now no liberated man has objected to the Guru- vada; it is usually only people who live in the mind or vital and have the pride of the mind and the arrogance of the vital that find it below their dignity to recognise a Guru´´´.(sri aurobindo-more lights on yoga). ´´Vivekananda, pointing out that the unity of all religions must necessarily express itself by an increasing richness of variety in its forms, said once that the perfect state of that essential unity would come when each man had his own religion, when not bound by sect or traditional form he followed the free selfadaptation of his nature in its relations with the Supreme.´´SA- the synthesis of yoga.p 58) referring to jed-- anonimity,solitude´´But for the sadhaka of the integral Yoga this inner or this outer solitude can only be incidents or periods in his spiritual progress. Accepting life, he has to bear not only his own burden, but a great part of the world’s burden too along with it, as a continuation of his own sufficiently heavy load. Therefore his Yoga has much more of the nature of a battle than others; but this is not only an individual battle, it is a collective war waged over a considerable country. He has not only to conquer in himself the forces of egoistic falsehood and disorder, but to conquer them as representatives of the same adverse and inexhaustible forces in the world. Their representative character gives them a much more obstinate capacity of resistance, an almost endless right to recurrence. Often he finds that even after he has won persistently his own personal battle, he has still to win it over and over again in a seemingly interminable war, because his inner existence has already been so much enlarged that not only it contains his own being with its well-defined needs and experiences, but is in solidarity with the being of others, because in himself he contains the universe. synthesis of yoga.p78 many teachings find this waaay too much work, and from where they stand it is unnecessary, since the physical manifestation ,and life, are mere illusions.That is an easy way out and accomplishes nothing other than the partial liberation of one individual,who, may be blessed with Freedom, but also impotent to act effectively on the world because he hasnt learned to master life, he just escaped from it.(main fault in buddism) hope this clarifies a bit. Thank you, Sunshine. It helps, but only insofar as seeing that others walked that. I am my own Source of Wisdom. do you know the book ´´collision with the infinite´´? I forgot her name--she one day , while waiting at a busstop, ´´lost her mind´´ and spent ten years trying to figure out wtf had happened to her. One thing i recall , is that despite her ´´freedom´´, she had a constant fear, she could not shake off. In the end she figured out that it must have been an imprint of her grandmother, who had survived the german deathcamps. You are your own source of wisdom, so dont go trying invent the wheel again...and, if you are ALL, the guidance you need is out there...it is you talking to you |
|
that's one of his funniest double-entedres ...
