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Post by andrew on Jan 24, 2012 16:43:33 GMT -5
I wouldnt say a bug knows its exists. It is too fully immersed in the experience, it doesnt experience any depth of illusion of being separate from existence. Its self-awareness is virtually non-existent. 'Being separate from existence' still sounds very odd to me for one who knows he exists, and I wouldn't say self awareness is required to know that. I'm not suggesting thoughts are involved. Yeah, you're doing something with that 'knowing point' that I don't understand obviously. (I'm really not trying to, BTW. It kinda wears me out.) Im just repeating myself here I think but the illusion is that we are separate from existence i.e. that we HAVE an existence (and can lose an existence). As the illusion dissolves and we no longer experience ourselves as separate from existence we lose the knowing that we exist. We lose all attachment to the belief that there IS a 'we' that could exist and which could know that we exist. With regard to the knowing thing.... as question talked about, its possible to see that there is no 'I' and yet not be 'enlightened'. Its because its not so much what is seen, but whether there is attachment to the truth/ falsity of what is seen. If knowledge in itself IS ignorance, then we somehow have to release the knowledge/ignorance, so we have to work at a level that isnt directly associated with knowledge/ignorance, even if its just a 'feeling' level. Its good to have someone to kinda wear you out hehe. Ive got situations and people in my life that kinda wear me out too. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 24, 2012 16:51:48 GMT -5
Moses was a riot. He used to whap people over the head with that staff of his, which is where the idea came from for the Zen stick. ;D Yeah, and I guess there were 15 commandments, originally, but one of the tablets got broke. At least according to Mel Brooks. Well, accidents happen. ;D |
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Post by enigma on Jan 24, 2012 16:57:36 GMT -5
'Being separate from existence' still sounds very odd to me for one who knows he exists, and I wouldn't say self awareness is required to know that. I'm not suggesting thoughts are involved. Yeah, you're doing something with that 'knowing point' that I don't understand obviously. (I'm really not trying to, BTW. It kinda wears me out.) Im just repeating myself here I think but the illusion is that we are separate from existence i.e. that we HAVE an existence (and can lose an existence). Oh, it hadn't occurred to me that it might be believed that existence were a possession that could be lost. That clarifies a lot. That would require identification with an object, I guess, which rather misses the point that existence is all you can know. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 24, 2012 17:02:41 GMT -5
Im just repeating myself here I think but the illusion is that we are separate from existence i.e. that we HAVE an existence (and can lose an existence). Oh, it hadn't occurred to me that it might be believed that existence were a possession that could be lost. That clarifies a lot. That would require identification with an object, I guess, which rather misses the point that existence is all you can know. Okay, well to put one more way, knowing and existence are not separate from each other at all. They are basically the same thing. In order that we can know that we exist, there has to be an illusion of one that is separate from existence that could know that s/he exists. And from this stance point it seems like we HAVE an existence to lose. Without this illusion there is 'knowingness', but its not a knowing something. Its not knowledge/ignorance. This knowingness is also not-knowing. I dont even really like saying there is knowingness because the mind cant help but take it the wrong way and think that some thing is known, but for the sake of this conversation I will give it a go. When we 'realize' we are existence, there is no sense of existing or knowing that we exist, but equally there is no more fear of losing existence (because there is no more sense of having an existence) |
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Jasun
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Post by Jasun on Jan 24, 2012 19:31:37 GMT -5
I don't have the exact JM quote at hand but I'm pretty sure the jist of it was that we know that something exists that is perceiving. That's the same something that is able to ask the question, "Do I (or does an "I") exist?" Descartes' "I think therefore I am" was overstating it (what a blabbermouth!), when "I am" is sufficient; or, to quote J-w-h: "I am that I am." (I prefer Popeye.) Who or what exactly is able to say/think "I am" remains unknown, unless we want to go on a semantic limb and say "God" or Universe, etc, which doesn't really answer that question. Hence God and the "I am" ("You wanna make something of it?") principle are the same, roughly. I would guess Andrew's point about "I am" indicating separation is that, with total unity of all "things," there is then "no-thing" remaining. But apparently that is not the case with us, yet, since this forum exists, relatively at least. To say "I do not exist" is to affirm that one does exist - or not?  |
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Post by andrew on Jan 24, 2012 19:39:35 GMT -5
Just to be clear, Im not suggesting or arguing that we dont exist (or that the forum doesnt exist). My argument is solely about the 'knowing'. Im suggesting that this knowing that something exists is experienced when we experience ourselves as separate from existence. As this illusion dissolves, so does the knowing.
I prefer Popeye too hehe.
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Post by angela on Jan 24, 2012 22:08:34 GMT -5
as usual andrew, i wonder where you have this scroll from the divine that tells you exactly how things are going to end up "when"....  |
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Post by andrew on Jan 25, 2012 2:55:25 GMT -5
as usual andrew, i wonder where you have this scroll from the divine that tells you exactly how things are going to end up "when".... Im really just trying to talk from my experience. |
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Post by angela on Jan 25, 2012 12:21:36 GMT -5
but you speak about a future experience that hasn't happened yet, and it looks a lot like you organize your life around that "when" thing.... so, that's my big question to you, ongoing. because in my experience, freedom is NOW. it's THIS, HERE. and all the seemingly sincere ways that i was trying to get to be happier and a better person and all that, by aiming for a goal in the future called freedom..... all the ways that i "knew" what the outcome would be were just tricks of the mind to keep me oriented around ego. yes, even the trick called "the ego will drop later, after such and such kind of personal growth or perfection." which is why i challenge you, repeatedly, to question this "end result".... to really get down to how you know that's what's going to happen? because if it's just a belief, and you're unwilling to question it, then it seems like you're kidding yourself about what you really want, that's all.  |
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Post by andrew on Jan 25, 2012 12:30:37 GMT -5
but you speak about a future experience that hasn't happened yet, and it looks a lot like you organize your life around that "when" thing.... so, that's my big question to you, ongoing. because in my experience, freedom is NOW. it's THIS, HERE. and all the seemingly sincere ways that i was trying to get to be happier and a better person and all that, by aiming for a goal in the future called freedom..... all the ways that i "knew" what the outcome would be were just tricks of the mind to keep me oriented around ego. yes, even the trick called "the ego will drop later, after such and such kind of personal growth or perfection." which is why i challenge you, repeatedly, to question this "end result".... to really get down to how you know that's what's going to happen? because if it's just a belief, and you're unwilling to question it, then it seems like you're kidding yourself about what you really want, that's all. Well, just to be clear then, I am talking about my experience now of not-knowing i.e. I cant honestly say that I know that I exist these days. I do have one eye on the future, yes, but Im not attached to outcomes. Humans are beings that set outcomes because we have preferences, even if its just to go to the grocery store and get food for dinner. You remind me a little bit of me a bit in my Eckhart Tolle days when I thought being in the Now as about not having preferences or having intentions. |
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Post by angela on Jan 25, 2012 12:36:55 GMT -5
i never said a word about not having preferences or intentions. i challenged you to show me how you know this end result is going to happen, never said a word about not having a preference. i guess, in a way, i'm trying to clarify what your preference really is. if it's freedom and truth and all that, then we have more we can talk about. if it's having a nice sweet life, then i guess there's no point in bothering you. i'm trying to get down to what it is, exactly, that you really want? because the way you talk on this board you're all over the place with what seems important to you. i'm trying to simplify. to ask you, really, what you honestly know for sure? even this statement: Humans are beings that set outcomes because we have preference i say to myself..... huh, really? how does he know that for sure? you say that you're not attached to outcomes, yet you continually talk about all the great things that are going to happen "when".... in the future, "when" attachment drops away and stuff. i guess if you've got your mind made up, because this is your experience, then that's groovy. i just speak from mine. i have all SORTS of preferences (you will not get me to vote republican. or eat pistachio ice cream. i'm far from well behaved and all that crud)..... however. life has shown me that there's only THIS. period. no future. time is an illusion of the mind. so. that's where i speak from. |
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Post by Beingist on Jan 25, 2012 12:45:01 GMT -5
... however. life has shown me that there's only THIS. period. no future. time is an illusion of the mind. so. that's where i speak from. Me, too, which is probably why I find what Andrew says to be confusing. On the Pavlina board, someone named inri, as silence has suggested, could pass for his sister, as their views are very similar with this preference thing. I never did quite get it. I mean, how can one be in the Now, but still look to the future with preferences? |
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Post by andrew on Jan 25, 2012 12:52:59 GMT -5
i never said a word about not having preferences or intentions. i challenged you to show me how you know this end result is going to happen, never said a word about not having a preference. i guess, in a way, i'm trying to clarify what your preference really is. if it's freedom and truth and all that, then we have more we can talk about. if it's having a nice sweet life, then i guess there's no point in bothering you. i'm trying to get down to what it is, exactly, that you really want? because the way you talk on this board you're all over the place with what seems important to you. i'm trying to simplify. to ask you, really, what you honestly know for sure? even this statement: Humans are beings that set outcomes because we have preference i say to myself..... huh, really? how does he know that for sure? i guess if you've got your mind made up, because this is your experience, then that's groovy. i just speak from mine. i have all SORTS of preferences (you will not get me to vote republican. or eat pistachio ice cream. i'm far from well behaved and all that crud)..... however. life has shown me that there's only THIS. period. no future. time is an illusion of the mind. so. that's where i speak from. Okay, I dont really have wants, preferences is about as strong a word I can offer. I have preferences that arise in the short term (for example what kind of ice-cream I fancy) and I have preferences for the long term (for example, it would be nice to have another child one day). I can also clarify my values for you if you like. I value peace, harmony, love, joy, fun, play, passion, clarity, honesty, openness....and a few others. I guess Im confused as to what end result you are talking about though. Are you asking me about not-knowing? |
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Post by andrew on Jan 25, 2012 12:56:36 GMT -5
... however. life has shown me that there's only THIS. period. no future. time is an illusion of the mind. so. that's where i speak from. Me, too, which is probably why I find what Andrew says to be confusing. On the Pavlina board, someone named inri, as silence has suggested, could pass for his sister, as their views are very similar with this preference thing. I never did quite get it. I mean, how can one be in the Now, but still look to the future with preferences? Because looking to the future happens in the Now. When we decide to have an ice-cream we are looking to the future. When we decide to get out of bed we are looking to the future. Its no big deal. We are beings that intend and plan and look to the future. We are creative beings. Its the ATTACHMENT to the outcomes that creates the difficulty and which takes our attention directly into thought. Time is an illusion of the mind, but mind-ing happens. |
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Post by Beingist on Jan 25, 2012 13:35:07 GMT -5
Me, too, which is probably why I find what Andrew says to be confusing. On the Pavlina board, someone named inri, as silence has suggested, could pass for his sister, as their views are very similar with this preference thing. I never did quite get it. I mean, how can one be in the Now, but still look to the future with preferences? Because looking to the future happens in the Now. When we decide to have an ice-cream we are looking to the future. When we decide to get out of bed we are looking to the future. Its no big deal. We are beings that intend and plan and look to the future. We are creative beings. Its the ATTACHMENT to the outcomes that creates the difficulty and which takes our attention directly into thought. Time is an illusion of the mind, but mind-ing happens. Sorry, I'm not relating to this. When we decide to have an ice cream, we are deciding now. I don't know if I'll decide to have an ice cream next Thursday. When we (or, at least, I), decide to get out of bed in the morning, I'm not really thinking of the future. I usually need to go pee, and that means going pee now. While I'm peeing, I'm usually simply wondering what day it is, whether I need to go to work, etc. The minute I start planning my day according to preferences, I know I'm setting myself up for trouble. "The best laid plans of mice and men, often go astray". This is not to say that I don't think. But, really, I've been through too much, in terms of negative experiences, to be regularly planning stuff. |
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