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Post by lolly on Dec 2, 2011 4:37:50 GMT -5
That may be true, but not what I was referring to...I was referring to his highly consistant habit of being highly critical of any methods of spiritual search or realization as shams except the one he offers lol It seems no means, no matter what the source, whether it's Buddha, ramana, nizargardata, krishnamirti, osho, me....no methods that any of them have recommended have any merit in the spiritual search and the path to realization other than the ones he recommends lol That just begs for some poking lol...and in the absence of doing that poking, or offering alternative approaches, this place would be little more than a philosophy debating circle about mind stuff spiritual ideas most of the time , and an ashram for enigmas noticing practice the rest of the time lol Maybe, but administering practices doesn't address what the practitioner is promised, such as true self enlightenment and what have you, though such promises are almost invariably made. As the practitioner is focused on enlightenment he is distracted from what inhibits his contentment, and continues to avert from what unsettles him and chase his imagined 'state of enlightenment'... and won't stop this relentless folly. Some techniques are very beneficial, and it could be fairly said that as one deepens awareness of the mind he gains insight into the reactivity which disturbs the stillness, and by becoming aware of it ceases that habitual agitation, as was expresses by that post about the toe. |
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Post by enigma on Dec 2, 2011 19:55:14 GMT -5
That may be true, but not what I was referring to...I was referring to his highly consistant habit of being highly critical of any methods of spiritual search or realization as shams except the one he offers lol It seems no means, no matter what the source, whether it's Buddha, ramana, nizargardata, krishnamirti, osho, me....no methods that any of them have recommended have any merit in the spiritual search and the path to realization other than the ones he recommends lol That just begs for some poking lol...and in the absence of doing that poking, or offering alternative approaches, this place would be little more than a philosophy debating circle about mind stuff spiritual ideas most of the time , and an ashram for enigmas noticing practice the rest of the time lol I think that self inquiry is an excellent approach. I also like Mckenna's spiritual autolysis, Neti-Neti, or any form of deconstruction. For those who's mind is far too active, I think meditation is very useful. Positioning oneself as observer, witness or 'I Am' can be useful and informative. As has been mentioned, ZD's ATA is not unlike the 'noticing' I often suggest. Mostly, what I try to do is collapse the imaginary mind split that occurs in many practices. I don't actually discourage the practices, since they can be what reveals the silliness of this split, but I do point it out. Left to your own devices, I can see you sending me off on a white horse to vanquish all practices and banish them from the world once and for all (except for one), so I thought I'd clear the record again so's we can start the distortion all over again.  |
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Post by tathagata on Dec 2, 2011 20:20:52 GMT -5
Lol...you say all that... But the facts on the ground are that when anybody discusses techniques or practices you are highly critical of them...in real life, on this forum, you criticize each method offered individually as they get offered.... But then when someone points out the pattern of you criticizing nearly every practice but the one you recommend, you say you believe practices are helpful lol
Basically you are highly critical of most practices but your own, even if it was a practice recommended by Buddha himself, until it's pointed out that you are critical of other techniques besides your own lol
But unless you go on a BIG DELETING spree the facts on the ground say differently...there is a very clear written track record... I looked back for almost a year of your posts, and found very very few instances where two people agreed (or even seriously discussed) that a practice other than Noticing is useful wherein you didn't attack it and recommend Noticing... The only instances I saw where you did not attack the practice was when Zendancer talked about ata... And there are even a few instances where you talked about the superiority of noticing to ata lol...in fact the ONLY instances that exist in your written record where you say any methods other than noticing have any merit is when I have brought up the issue of you being critical of practices except your own... If you like I can cut and paste all your writings on the subject into one thread so you can see for yourself?
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Post by enigma on Dec 2, 2011 20:53:13 GMT -5
Actually, I haven't even been reading the practices you've been recommending to Freejoy, so if I've been criticizing each method offered individually as it gets offered, my bad. But then, my memory isn't what it used to be.
I don't approve of split-mind practices. I don't care if it was recommended by Buddha, Ramana or carved in a stone tablet by God himself. If thou shalt suggest one, I'm likely to talk about the ambiguous, paradoxical absurdity of it cause that's what I do. The only practice I can recommend to you, is getting over it.
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Post by tathagata on Dec 2, 2011 21:04:31 GMT -5
Actually, I haven't even been reading the practices you've been recommending to Freejoy, so if I've been criticizing each method offered individually as it gets offered, my bad. But then, my memory isn't what it used to be. I don't approve of split-mind practices. I don't care if it was recommended by Buddha, Ramana or carved in a stone tablet by God himself. If thou shalt suggest one, I'm likely to talk about the ambiguous, paradoxical absurdity of it cause that's what I do. The only practice I can recommend to you, is getting over it. Well I will go back to simply poking you on an individual basis when you stereotype all practices other than your own as absurdities lol No more poking out of the general pattern of it hehehe |
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Post by tathagata on Dec 2, 2011 21:40:39 GMT -5
Actually, I haven't even been reading the practices you've been recommending to Freejoy, so if I've been criticizing each method offered individually as it gets offered, my bad. But then, my memory isn't what it used to be. I don't approve of split-mind practices. I don't care if it was recommended by Buddha, Ramana or carved in a stone tablet by God himself. If thou shalt suggest one, I'm likely to talk about the ambiguous, paradoxical absurdity of it cause that's what I do. The only practice I can recommend to you, is getting over it. Okay.... One last poke hehehe If its okay for you to call all the instruction given by the great sages of history absurd, while saying your own method is different from and better then their's, how is it not okay for others to point out what they see as absurd. For example: pointing out that you say your method of "Noticing" is useful, while the methods that Buddha and Ramana and Nizargardata and Mahavira and Krishnamirti are countless other great sages of history are absurdly useless and a sham. Now that's an absurdity that I will continue to point out hehehe... Get over that lol Just a quick question, history would indicate that Buddha, ramana, niz, Mahavira, and the rest of the great sages have offered advice that has helped untold thousands to become fully awakened throughout history. Can you name 1 that your advice has helped to fully liberate? I'm just askin for a bit tolerance brother... Why so exclusionary of methods other than your own? Ps: where it gets really fantastically absurd is that you believe that Noticing is fundamentally different than the advice Buddha and others have given....you believe the sillyness that Noticing is both better AND different than their advice lol So all in one shot you get to bring a new method into the world that surpasses all methods before it.....hehehe....how can one NOT poke at the absurdity of that lol |
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Post by enigma on Dec 2, 2011 22:23:31 GMT -5
"All that is necessary for enlightenment to occur is the clear understanding that it is an utterly different dimension from mere intellectual comprehension, the dimension of BEING, to which no rigorous discipline or set practices can even be relevant.
Seekers continue to practice all kinds of self-torture without realizing that such 'spiritual practice' is a reinforcement of the very ego that prevents them from their natural, free state."
Ramesh
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Post by enigma on Dec 2, 2011 22:27:31 GMT -5
Ramesh: Meditation and all such methods and efforts are distractions from simply abiding in the natural state which is one's limitless, real being.
Niz:"Liberation is not the result of some means skillfully applied, nor of circumstances. It is beyond the causal process. Nothing can compel it, nothing can prevent it."
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Post by nobody on Dec 2, 2011 23:41:55 GMT -5
I don't understand the debate here about practices. What enigma calls noticing is nothing different than the great sages have subscribed. If what you are IS awareness (or something), then does it make sense to do anything other than ... notice?
Simply by asking the question "what am i?" or "what is seeing?", what you are not gets noticed. Thoughts get noticed, and you are not that. Emotions get noticed, and you are not that. The "witness" gets noticed, and you are not that.
Observing the observer (maybe even the observer of the observer of the observer ...), umm, observing=noticing?
If all that is, is awareness, then time makes no sense. Thoughts are fragmented, so thought cannot comprehend time. We have no adequate means of knowing what time is. We can't prove that it's linear or continuous. Presupposing that time is an illusion (which isn't a good idea), the notion of doership (or practicing) is absurd. But, we can notice (or observe if you like), the fragmented nature of thought.
And, as you say, Tat... The observer is the observed. No separation. Where then is there any room for doership or practices?
Maybe the whole point of practicing is no notice (I mean observe, sorry, hehe), that practices are simply reinforce the illusory idea that of the doer.
Me thinks your not OBSERVING what's actually being said here. And maybe you haven't OBSERVED the things your suggesting that others should observe.
Err... something like that.
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Post by tathagata on Dec 3, 2011 0:05:54 GMT -5
Lol... I actually agree with all the stuff up top lol... I said very clearly that the practices enigma recommends are actually the same as he practices I and the great sages have recommended, I actually poked him several times for saying that Noticing is not the same thing lol
And having agreed with you here Nobody, that reduces the whole debate down to a battle over semantics in the use of the word "practice" , which I have also said wasa silly debate. You guys place meanings on the word practice that I don't lol, by practice I simply mean doing something with consistancy, and put some effort into noticing, observing, witnessing with consistancy until it becomes effortless to do so....
I have poked enigma for arguing that his advice is both different and better than the great sages, becuase frankly I think it's an egotistically motivated thought process lol
Look at the last two paragraphs of the last post I made in this thread.
Look at what I have actually written brother.
I agree with stuff you guys say all the time, but have never seen you agree with anything I say lol
You guys disagree just for the sake of disagreeing, sometimes, like in your quote above, your method of argument is to quote me almost word for word as a means to counter the point I made that you yourself are currently using lol
Enigma by his own admission above, though his actual action contradict his statement above, said some practices can be helpful, and described most of the stuff I'm having freejoy do, but in the sentence before that he said he didn't even know what I was having freejoy do...this is becuase he started disagreeing with what I was going to have freejoy do before he ever even knew what it was lol
Disagreeing just to disagree hehehe
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Post by nobody on Dec 3, 2011 0:23:11 GMT -5
I have poked enigma for arguing that his advice is both different and better than the great sages, becuase frankly I think it's an egotistically motivated Oh yeah. That egoic bastard. Err wait... I and the great sages have recommended You guys place meanings on the word practice that I don't Look at the last two paragraphs of the last post I made Yeah, no egotistical up there ^^^ at all though. Allright, that's my last poke, and I mean it. Err wait, I have no idea what my next thought will be. Dammit, if only I had some self-control! |
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Post by nobody on Dec 3, 2011 0:24:35 GMT -5
Dammit, you edited your last post again. If I'd have only waited I've had more non-egoic fodder  |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 3, 2011 0:32:46 GMT -5
There may be some difference between what E. calls "noticing" and what I call "silent attending," but I don't know what it is. In my case every "breakthrough" of one or more illusions seemed to result from looking at the world in silence or from existential questioning (silently bearing in mind what I wanted to know).
On one occasion I suddenly NOTICED that a dominant repetitive thought was just a thought, and I NOTICED how the thought separated me from the truth of "what is." This noticing freed me from my previous attachment to that particular thought.
On another occasion, after some sustained silent attentiveness (several days), I NOTICED that a dominant set of thoughts had utterly disappeared, but the noticing was after the fact and seemingly had nothing to do with the disappearance.
On one occasion a strange existential question arose out of nowhere and dominated consciousness for thirty minutes before collapsing in resolution. When it collapsed, it carried with it other, more dominant, thoughts to which I had been unconsciously attached.
Silent empty presence, alone, would seem to be sufficient for dispelling all illusions.
Today, I do not ponder any existential questions, but quite often I will be hiking on a trail or driving somewhere in my car and suddenly "see" the answer to some koan that I once read about many years ago. Silence, alone, apparently leads to increasing clarity.
As I see it, most meditative practices are simply methods of attending the actual--of "being here now" and noticing "what is." The word "practice" can be interpreted negatively or positively. Most people unconsciously spend their time thinking. We could say that they "practice" thinking. I tell seekers to spend time ATA in order to break the thinking habit so that they can distinguish between the actual and the imaginary and thereby discover the truth that underlies the consensus trance.
My argument is with formal practices that engender the idea of personal progress. This is why I prefer prescribing the informal practice of ATA throughout the day. It removes the sense of specialness and the idea of "getting somewhere" other than here.
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Post by nobody on Dec 3, 2011 0:45:47 GMT -5
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Post by tathagata on Dec 3, 2011 1:12:17 GMT -5
Hehehe....I was only responding to your post about what Me hehehe
If you like I can use the third person when referring to myself lol, would you find that more egoic or less egoic?
But more to the point, whenever I do something as silly as using documentable facts to cut through your idea and opinion based arguements many of you guys change course and attack me personally instead of looking at the facts and saying hey I should re-evaluate based on the facts....
Instead, I state a fact, like 2+2=4, and instead of saying, hey that might be right, you say, Well your just ugly!
LoL argueing just to argue, instead of debating to come to a common increased understanding.
So...as this is unproductive and every debate with you guys eventually walks away from the facts and descends into a personal attack on me I,m not Gunna play anymore hehehe
Enigma, when looked at in the context of the entire conversation most of the quotes you listed above are those sages referring to non meditative spiritual practices, like austerity, pilgrimages, fasting, etc.... Those same guys have quotes over and over prescribing various meditation practices... Not withstanding a nitpicking over the semantical appropriateness of the word "practice"
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