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Post by tathagata on Nov 30, 2011 18:31:24 GMT -5
from wikipedia on maharshi A month later he came across a copy of Sekkizhar's Periyapuranam, a book that describes the lives of 63 Saivite saints, and was deeply moved and inspired by it.[9] Filled with awe, and a desire for emulation, he began devotional visits to the nearby Meenakshi Temple in Madurai and, associated with this bhakti, later reported fever-like sensations.[10] Soon after, on July 17, 1896,[9] at age 16, Venkataraman had a life-changing experience. He spontaneously initiated a process of self-enquiry that culminated, within a few minutes, in his own permanent awakening. In one of his rare written comments on this process he wrote: 'Enquiring within Who is the seer? I saw the seer disappear leaving That alone which stands forever. No thought arose to say I saw. How then could the thought arise to say I did not see.'.[6] As Sri Ramana reportedly described it later:
"It was in 1896, about 6 weeks before I left Madurai for good (to go to Tiruvannamalai-Arunachala) that this great change in my life took place. I was sitting alone in a room on the first floor of my uncle's house. I seldom had any sickness and on that day there was nothing wrong with my health, but a sudden violent fear of death overtook me. There was nothing in my state of health to account for it nor was there any urge in me to find out whether there was any account for the fear. I just felt I was going to die and began thinking what to do about it. It did not occur to me to consult a doctor or any elders or friends. I felt I had to solve the problem myself then and there. The shock of the fear of death drove my mind inwards and I said to myself mentally, without actually framing the words: 'Now death has come; what does it mean? What is it that is dying? This body dies.' And at once I dramatised the occurrence of death. I lay with my limbs stretched out still as though rigor mortis has set in, and imitated a corpse so as to give greater reality to the enquiry. I held my breath and kept my lips tightly closed so that no sound could escape, and that neither the word 'I' nor any word could be uttered. 'Well then,' I said to myself, 'this body is dead. It will be carried stiff to the burning ground and there burn and reduced to ashes. But with the death of the body, am I dead? Is the body I? It is silent and inert, but I feel the full force of my personality and even the voice of I within me, apart from it. So I am the Spirit transcending the body. The body dies but the spirit transcending it cannot be touched by death. That means I am the deathless Spirit.' All this was not dull thought; it flashed through me vividly as living truths which I perceived directly almost without thought process. I was something real, the only real thing about my present state, and all the conscious activity connected with the body was centered on that I. From that moment onwards, the "I" or Self focused attention on itself by a powerful fascination. Fear of death vanished once and for all. The ego was lost in the flood of Self-awareness. Absorption in the Self continued unbroken from that time. Other thought might come and go like the various notes of music, but the I continued like the fundamental sruti note ["that which is heard" i.e. the Vedas and Upanishads] a note which underlies and blends with all other notes.".[11]
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Post by tathagata on Nov 30, 2011 18:51:55 GMT -5
just found this:
Question: Beloved Osho, There is a statement by J. Krishnamurti that "the Observer is the Observed." will you please kindly elaborate and explain what it means?
Osho: The statement that "the observer is the observed" is one of the most significant things ever said by any man on the earth. The statement is as extraordinary as J. Krishnamurti was. It is difficult to understand it only intellectually, because the way of the intellect is dialectical, dualistic. On the path of intellect the subject can never be the object, the seer can never be the seen. The observer cannot be the observed. As far as intellect is concerned, it is an absurd statement, meaningless -- not only meaningless, but insane.
The intellectual approach towards reality is that of division: the knower and the known have to be separate. Only then is there a possibility of knowledge between the two. The scientist cannot become science, the scientist has to remain separate from what he is doing. The experimenter is not allowed to become the experiment itself. As far as intellect is concerned, logic is concerned, it looks absolutely valid. But there is a knowledge that passeth understanding, there is a knowing that goes beyond science.
Only because that kind of knowing which goes beyond science is possible, is mysticism possible, is religiousness possible. Let us move from a different direction. Science divides the whole of human experience and existence into two parts: the known and the unknown. That which is known today was unknown yesterday, that which is unknown today may become known tomorrow, so the distance is not impossible, unbridgeable. The distance is only because man's knowledge is growing, and as his knowledge grows the area of his ignorance diminishes.
In other words, as he knows more, the area of the unknown becomes less and the area of the known becomes bigger. If we follow this logic, the ultimate result will be that one day there will be nothing left as unknown. Slowly slowly, the unknown will change into the known, and the moment will come when there is nothing left as unknown. That is the goal of science, to destroy ignorance -- but to destroy ignorance means to destroy all possibilities of exploration, all possibilities of the unknown challenging you to move forward.
The destruction of ignorance means the death of all intelligence, because there will be no need for intelligence anymore. It will be simply something which was useful in the past -- you can put it in a museum -- but it is of no use anymore. This is not a very exciting picture.Mysticism does not agree with science, it goes beyond it. According to mysticism, existence and experience is divided into three parts: the known, the unknown, and the unknowable.
The known was unknown one day, the unknown will become known one day, but the unknowable will remain unknowable; it will remain mysterious. Whatever you do, the mystery will always surround existence. The mystery will always be there around life, around love, around meditation. The mystery cannot be destroyed. Ignorance can be destroyed, but by destroying ignorance you cannot destroy the miraculous, the mysterious. J. Krishnamurti's statement belongs to the unknowable.
I have been telling you that as you meditate... and by meditation I simply mean as you become more and more aware of your mind process. If the mind process is one hundred percent, taking your whole energy, you will be fast asleep inside -- there will be no alertness.
One morning Gautam Buddha is talking to his disciples. The king, Prasenjita, has also come to listen to him; he is sitting just in front of Buddha. He is not accustomed to sitting on the floor -- he is a king -- so he is feeling uncomfortable, fidgety, changing sides, somehow trying not to disturb and not to be noticed by Buddha because he is not sitting silently, peacefully. He is continuously moving the big toe of his foot, for no reason, just to be busy without business. There are people who cannot be without business; they will still be busy.
Gautam Buddha stopped talking and asked Prasenjita, "Can you tell me, why are you moving your big toe?" In fact, Prasenjita himself was not aware of it. You are doing a thousand and one things you are not aware of. Unless somebody points at them, you may not take any note of it.
The moment Buddha asked him, the toe stopped moving. Buddha said, "Why have you stopped moving the toe?" He said, "You are putting me in an embarrassing situation. I don't know why that toe was moving. This much I know: that as you asked the question it stopped. I have not done anything -- neither was I moving it, nor have I stopped it."
Buddha said to his disciples, "Do you see the point? The toe belongs to the man. It moves, but he is not aware of its movement. And the moment he becomes aware -- because I asked the question -- the very awareness immediately stops the toe. He does not stop it. The very awareness, that `It is stupid, why are you moving it?' -- just the awareness is enough to stop it."
Your mind is a constant traffic of thoughts, and it is always rush hour, day in, day out. Meditation means to watch the movement of thoughts in the mind. Just be an observer, as if you are standing by the side of the road watching the traffic -- no judgment, no evaluation, no condemnation, no appreciation -- just pure observation. As you become more and more accustomed to observation, a strange phenomenon starts happening.
If you are ten percent aware, that much energy has moved from the mind process to the observer; now the mind has only ninety percent energy available. A moment comes... you have fifty percent of energy. And your energy goes on growing as mind goes on losing its energy. The traffic becomes less and less and less, and you become more and more and more.
Your witnessing self goes on increasing in integrity, expanding; it becomes stronger and stronger. And the mind goes on becoming weaker and weaker: ninety percent observer and ten percent mind, ninety-nine percent observer and only one percent mind. One hundred percent observer and the mind disappears, the road is empty; the screen of the mind becomes completely empty, nothing moves. There is only the observer.
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Post by andrew on Nov 30, 2011 18:52:30 GMT -5
Cool. I was talking to my Mum about this yesterday (death of the body). Sometimes my talk falls on deaf ears but yesterday, for whatever reason, my words hit home and for a short period of time she experienced deathless Spirit and she positively radiated health and light. She has no interest in enlightenment, but she does have an interest in health. Maybe at some stage she will do a 'Ramana' hehe.
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Post by enigma on Dec 1, 2011 1:39:59 GMT -5
Buddha said to his disciples, "Do you see the point? The toe belongs to the man. It moves, but he is not aware of its movement. And the moment he becomes aware -- because I asked the question -- the very awareness immediately stops the toe. He does not stop it. The very awareness, that `It is stupid, why are you moving it?' -- just the awareness is enough to stop it." And that's what it means to notice. And that's what it means to get out of the river and stand on the bank. |
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Post by tathagata on Dec 1, 2011 6:41:22 GMT -5
Buddha said to his disciples, "Do you see the point? The toe belongs to the man. It moves, but he is not aware of its movement. And the moment he becomes aware -- because I asked the question -- the very awareness immediately stops the toe. He does not stop it. The very awareness, that `It is stupid, why are you moving it?' -- just the awareness is enough to stop it." And that's what it means to notice. And that's what it means to get out of the river and stand on the bank. You often have very good recommendations enigma, I just sometimes suggest alternative methods of delivery, and sometimes challenge you when you put up too much resistance to methods other than the ones you recommend lol |
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Post by lolly on Dec 2, 2011 2:37:46 GMT -5
I disagree... enigma delivers just fine.
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Post by lolly on Dec 2, 2011 3:20:31 GMT -5
alternate methods of delivery.
i doubt enigma uses a method of delivery, just speaks in response to whatever is said.
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Post by tathagata on Dec 2, 2011 3:43:18 GMT -5
That may be true, but not what I was referring to...I was referring to his highly consistant habit of being highly critical of any methods of spiritual search or realization as shams except the one he offers lol
It seems no means, no matter what the source, whether it's Buddha, ramana, nizargardata, krishnamirti, osho, me....no methods that any of them have recommended have any merit in the spiritual search and the path to realization other than the ones he recommends lol
That just begs for some poking lol...and in the absence of doing that poking, or offering alternative approaches, this place would be little more than a philosophy debating circle about mind stuff spiritual ideas most of the time , and an ashram for enigmas noticing practice the rest of the time lol
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Post by Peter on Dec 2, 2011 3:57:09 GMT -5
...except the one he offers lol. ... other than the ones he recommends lol. ...I'm sorry but that begs for some poking lol. You're making serious points Tathagata, then you try to make them "light" by adding a lol or, going a few days back, "hehehe". It leaves the reader (ie moi) with a slight feeling of cognitive dissonance. You step forward, then you step back. Seems like waste of energy to me, but of course your energy is yours to do with as you please. P |
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Post by tathagata on Dec 2, 2011 4:08:10 GMT -5
That's a fair enough statement, it's just that I'm often genuinely amused at the intricate and twisted ways the mind and ego shapes people's views.
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Post by tathagata on Dec 2, 2011 4:10:24 GMT -5
...except the one he offers lol. ...I'm sorry but that begs for some poking lol. You're making serious points Tathagata, then you try to make them "light" by adding a lol or, going a few days back, "hehehe". It leaves the reader (ie moi) with a slight feeling of cognitive dissonance. You step forward, then you step back. Seems like waste of energy to me, but of course your energy is yours to do with as you please. Also, what exactly are you poking here? Ramana Maharshi is dead. There's no need to poke him, that's what death certificates are for. P I wasn't talking about poking ramana, I was talking about poking enigma, who is alive lol |
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Post by Peter on Dec 2, 2011 4:11:03 GMT -5
That's a fair enough statement, it's just that I'm often genuinely amused at the intricate and twisted ways the mind and ego shapes people's views. ...and your own, of course. |
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Post by Peter on Dec 2, 2011 4:13:13 GMT -5
I wasn't talking about poking ramana, I was talking about poking enigma, who is alive lol Laughing out loud again? My my your world is just a barrel of fun isn't it? I guess you can't be watching the news much. Yes sorry I did realise my mistake and went back to edit my post. |
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Post by tathagata on Dec 2, 2011 4:13:15 GMT -5
Night guys, time for sleep
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Post by tathagata on Dec 2, 2011 4:29:54 GMT -5
I wasn't talking about poking ramana, I was talking about poking enigma, who is alive lol Laughing out loud again? My my your world is just a barrel of fun isn't it? I guess you can't be watching the news much. Yes sorry I did realise my mistake and went back to edit my post. Peter, there are skill sets one can learn to make their own little environment fun regardless of what's on the news, and they do work, I have used them to great affect earlier in my life... But that's Andrews area on this forum ;-)...but let's assume all that is nonsense , and the whole idea that living in the moment opens us up to a world of wonder just as it is.. Let's set all that aside too... And just look at one simple thing...Good stuff or bad stuff may be happening all around you, but you will always be able to respond to those things with humor, sadness, or equinimity, etc. |
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