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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 25, 2013 21:35:21 GMT -5
Are you implying that the indirect evidence needs to be believed in as having a self at it's origin and that that belief is 'self-fulfilling'? The indirect evidence is stuff like: lack of certainty, continued reactivity in relationships (though not as much). If the goal is to end the seeking game, and I'm seeking certainty or confidence, that search is already taking me a step away from the source from which authentic confidence is founded? aye, okay. So one method for explaining away the reactivity thing is to say that it is just the behaviour resulting from conditioning. Button Z is pushed and behavior Z! results. No central self required. In the largest sense, self IS conditioning. So conditioning doesn't run without a self. I'm actually saying something else. Lets say you contribute a large portion of your paycheck every month to a charity called United Pay. You decide to check up on this charity, and you can't find any mention of it. There's no evidence at all that it exists beyond the deduction listed on your paycheck. It would make sense that you would choose to stop making this (voluntary) contribution because there's an obvious cost to you and no evidence of a benefit going to those in need. You wouldn't continue contributing because of conditioning. However, the situation of a self is a little different. While there is no real evidence of it, and presumably the downside of believing in it is understood, there is also an apparent upside. The upside, of course, is as delusional as the belief in the self, since it is dependent upon that belief that is not in evidence. So what we're talking about is pretending to believe in something for which there is no evidence, because the game of pretending is something that you want to play. In order to keep playing, it may be necessary to come up with a story as to why you're still contributing to a charity that doesn't exist. Not buying the stories would be a step in the right direction. Enigma, this is the best thing you've ever posted (of course, that I've seen......which is a fair amount......). sdp |
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Post by enigma on Apr 25, 2013 21:40:50 GMT -5
Confidence arises from direct experience. If you stub your toe on a rock, there is no doubt about what happened. If you have an experience of cosmic-consciousness, you directly experience oneness, so there is no doubt that any sense of separation is an illusion. Even after the experience ends, it is remembered, so the certainty of what happened and what was realized never goes away. If you have an experience in which selfhood disappears, even for a short period of time, there is no doubt that such a thing is possible. If selfhood is seen to be non-existent, as a realization rather than an experience, there is never any doubt about what was seen. When gaps between thoughts first appear, the mind usually thinks, "Oh, silence has appeared," but that thought breaks the silence. Eventually, silence can occur and be known without any words or thoughts appearing. Sustained silence makes it obvious that discursive thinking is not necessary for most daily activities. Cumulatively, a wide range of direct experiences and various realizations regarding the nature of reality generates considerable confidence concerning how mind generates the illusions underlying the trance-like state of mind most people mistake for reality. Until someone tastes a lemon, one does not know how a lemon tastes. Until someone directly experiences the vastness of the Infinite, one does not know what the word "infinite" points to. When the Infinite is directly experienced, it is not experienced by a separate person; the Infinite experiences Itself through some unknown faculty of perception that is not conceptual/intellectual. Any body/mind through which that occurs never forgets what happened, and always feels deep humility, awe, and reverence concerning what happened and what was perceived. In Christian terms any body/mind that experiences God directly never imagines that s/he IS God. The body/mind is conceived, whenever it is conceived, as an infinitessimally tiny fragment of being that is one-with the vastness of God. AAR, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it! Ha ha Hitting the bong, or dropping a tab might lead to doubt about the legitimacy of the experience, though... The key seems to be the deep humility, awe, or reverence that one is brought to, the antidote to the mind rising up again to take control/authorship of the experience. I say all experience is mind, and therefore subject to doubt. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 25, 2013 22:51:54 GMT -5
Your attention comes from this higher level (figure of speech, manner of speaking), but it does. This is why correct meditation is the key (in various forms). Ego/false self cannot make this effort, that's why it is said that nothing can be done. From the standpoint of self nothing can be done, but this doesn't mean that nothing can be done. Now, you may or may not know more than you knew when you started reading this post. Ego/false self can think, feel, act and sense. None of these lead to this Infinite Aliveness. sdp Of course my little brain seized on your 'correct meditation.' I've been wondering the same. I've been doing (!) effortless meditation. Basically I just get myself sitting and then come what may. Because the intention of meditating is there, the attention naturally shifts back to the anchor (breathing in my case). No expectations, no effort, etc. Adyashanti calls it True Meditation (from Way of Liberation). Also it's recommended by TAT folks -- Mike Conners. I've noticed recently that when attention hones in on the observing/witnessing the breathing speeds up and gets more energetic. I like JWL's idea of looking into lateral thinking. Haven't found any more mention of it with regard to sidestepping this whole Catch 22, however. I dropped in last night, few added comments (one that left me exasperated...)......seems things were cooking a little today, some good stuff........ Most excellent repeat of Shawn Nevins comments..... Good that you picked up on correct meditation, correct was there for a reason. I'll try to be brief. Consider a newborn baby. Can a baby conceptualize? No. So what is a baby functioning through? A baby is born functioning through its attention, is born with attention, we could say a baby is living through their true self, their essence. Nature has gifted us with this wonderful brain/body. Baby from day one (actually, even somewhat while still in the womb) begins to collect information through the senses, information being recorded in the neural structure of the brain. Baby is breezing along in direct contact with reality living through their attention, timelessly, but at the same time storing the data. Eventually baby begins to connect what it senses with a symbolic representation, a particular word, baby is learning language. By the age of two a baby has a pretty good vocabulary and growing rapidly. Go back and trace your earliest memories, they will almost invariably be of direct sensations, probably sights, probably vivid color. With all the data stored, baby is forming a cultural self, AKA ego/false self, Enigma mentioned the conditioned self...that it is. Your ego is pretty-much a dead thing, a mass of recordings in the neural network of the brain. From birth to about the age of six baby/child is on a seesaw, a teeter-totter. At birth true self is holding down one end, feet on the ground, ego/persona/mask on the other end, nothing there, feet up in the air. As baby begins to store data in the brain, ego/persona begins to gain some weight. By about the age of six (give or take some months or even years), true self has disappeared, this end of the seesaw now up in the air, the other end weighed down, ego/persona has its feet on the ground. What has happened? At any time you think to do so, ask yourself where your attention is. Unless you have had a very long interior practice you will almost invariably find it is on some thought, emotion or action. IOW, your attention has actually been captured by and is being held by a thought, action or feeling. Your thoughts and feelings, which result in actions, are what constitute ego/persona/false self, the conditioned self, self. Notice another thing, whereas a newborn baby lives timelessly in the present moment, conditioned mind never lives in the present moment. self/conditioned mind/ego always lives either in the past through memory or the future through imagination. That's why I say that ego is essentially a dead thing, it's wholly composed of concepts, information stored in the neural network. You can also say it lives in sleep, ego/persona/conditioned mind can't but be asleep. Ego/conditioned mind is actually a cage that holds our attention captive. So, all that to say this. "Correct meditation" is simply freeing one's attention from being held captive. But simple is not easy. Freeing one's attention is the most difficult thing you will ever do. You actually have to learn to live like a little child again. Some excellent advise has been given in the previous posts. Your attention is separate from your thoughts, emotions, actions and sensations. If this were not so then we would be in a helpless situation. However, it is possible to separate out one's attention from one's thoughts, actions, feelings and sensations. Can ego/conditioned mind do this? No. Nothing can be done from the ego/persona side of the seesaw. This is why I said, in my original post on this thread, that self (little s)/ego/conditioned mind can do nothing, but it is not true that nothing can be done. You have to operate from the Self side of the seesaw, from true self/essence. If you can begin to live through your attention instead of it being constantly captured by thoughts, feelings and actions, then you begin to break the threads of captivity. You begin taking the energy out of ego/conditioned mind. And eventually there is a reversal of the seesaw, the true self/essence side gets weighty, and the ego/false self/conditioned mind side becomes the nothing side it actually is. So first you have to remember to ask yourself where your attention is, and then for a few seconds you can witness, observe what is, and then in a few more seconds, or minutes, or hours, or maybe even days, you will realize that your attention has once again disappeared into a thought, feeling or action.....and then you try again. So, maybe now you know more than you did when you started reading this post, maybe not (of course some here will not need this). But now maybe you begin to experiment a little, explore this. But simple is not easy. sdp |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 26, 2013 8:00:45 GMT -5
It is said that there is nothing that can be done to become that which you already are, as you suggest. There is no becoming, and so no doing, seeking, traveling, no process, no 'distance'to cover, no time needed, no energy build up, no state transition. All attempts to become what you are would ultimately be seen as distractions and could not possibly be part of a movement toward the goal, but only the exhausting of energy that is being directed away from the truth of the situation. The goal of the seeking is simply to end the seeking, not to actually find something. How could you find yourself when you never lost yourself? How could get one millimeter or one nanosecond away from yourself? .................../............... Just to add a few more things, using this to piggyback...... What's simple is not easy, so we can begin with what's easier. You can begin with the senses, notice colors, notice sounds, the sound of your own voice, notice the shapes of material objects, notice your sense of touch, what your bottom feels like on your chair, the itch when you scratch, the tension in your face, notice smells, really taste your food. Then you can observe how your body moves, your muscles as you walk or run, notice how you gesture, notice any action your body takes. Thoughts and emotions are harder to observe (I think you have found or will find). Everything you think or feel belongs to ego/conditioned mind. As I said, once cultural self is formed, your attention is virtually always in the use of self and captured and held in the vast web of the neural structure of self. This is why it's difficult to observe self, observe one's thoughts and emotions. When you try to observe thoughts, your attention almost immediately disappears into the thought, you lose the thread. And thoughts and emotions happen automatically, self operates almost all the time. self is its side of the seesaw on the ground, your essential Self side up in the air. This is its natural ground state, it's like the electron of a Hydrogen atom lowest orbital, its lowest energy level. What's the most effective way to exhaust the energy being directed away from the truth of the situation? This is the purpose of living through your attention, you begin taking out the energy which keeps cultural self/conditioned mind functioning. Why start with the senses and then one's physical movements? It's easier. And it doesn't really matter what your thinking and feeling, as all these belong to ego/conditioned mind/persona (at least in the beginning and actually for a very long time, not to be worried about for now). If you can live through your attention, you're 'giving weight' to the Self/essential side of the seesaw. And no matter what you have to do every day (what cultural self has to do, job wise for example), there are numerous opportunities to seprate-out one's attention by sensing or observing one's physical actions, waiting in line, waiting on the phone, going to the water fountain or the bathroom. But what are we always doing? Ordinary mind is busy daydreaming, it just goes off on its own......this is its job, just jumping here and there through association. It's like the Energizer Bunny, it never stops. But you can observe your sensations and your actions. Doing so you are taking back your attention, the attention which is now lost being held by self. In taking back your attention you are breaking a single thread of a rope, taking the energy out of conditioned self. And this energy accumulates in the body. It's like filling a five-gallon bucket drop-by-drop, but some day the bucket overflows.......and you're never the same again. But absolutely nothing can be done, in a real sense, from the side of conditioned mind. You can read helpful books, good books, we can get inspiration and knowledge. You have just read these two posts, but now you can experiment with what the words direct, or not. Words can point to practices, but actually doing them is different. You have to come to understand, on your own, what the words are pointing to, actual interior practices. But cultural self/conditioned mind isn't interested in these kinds of words. You have to decide what interests you most, and put your time and energy there. Just remember, ego/conditioned mind operates automatically. It just goes on and on and on maintaining control, stealing all your energy. One more thing, awareness and attention are actually two different modes, so to speak. Attention is like a laser, awareness is like a flood light. Consider attending, is to particular things. Consider awareness as a whole, taking in the whole. And there is a part of yourself that always lives in the present moment. You can go for hours and hardly notice it, days even. It can be an anchor. Whereas the very purpose of thoughts is to take you out of the present moment (a thought is an abstract construct, always representing something else, always at least once removed from reality, so thoughts must necessarily take you out of the present moment), your physical body is always in the present moment. sdp |
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Post by zendancer on Apr 26, 2013 8:39:14 GMT -5
Of course my little brain seized on your 'correct meditation.' I've been wondering the same. I've been doing (!) effortless meditation. Basically I just get myself sitting and then come what may. Because the intention of meditating is there, the attention naturally shifts back to the anchor (breathing in my case). No expectations, no effort, etc. Adyashanti calls it True Meditation (from Way of Liberation). Also it's recommended by TAT folks -- Mike Conners. I've noticed recently that when attention hones in on the observing/witnessing the breathing speeds up and gets more energetic. I like JWL's idea of looking into lateral thinking. Haven't found any more mention of it with regard to sidestepping this whole Catch 22, however. I dropped in last night, few added comments (one that left me exasperated...)......seems things were cooking a little today, some good stuff........ Most excellent repeat of Shawn Nevins comments..... Good that you picked up on correct meditation, correct was there for a reason. I'll try to be brief. Consider a newborn baby. Can a baby conceptualize? No. So what is a baby functioning through? A baby is born functioning through its attention, is born with attention, we could say a baby is living through their true self, their essence. Nature has gifted us with this wonderful brain/body. Baby from day one (actually, even somewhat while still in the womb) begins to collect information through the senses, information being recorded in the neural structure of the brain. Baby is breezing along in direct contact with reality living through their attention, timelessly, but at the same time storing the data. Eventually baby begins to connect what it senses with a symbolic representation, a particular word, baby is learning language. By the age of two a baby has a pretty good vocabulary and growing rapidly. Go back and trace your earliest memories, they will almost invariably be of direct sensations, probably sights, probably vivid color. With all the data stored, baby is forming a cultural self, AKA ego/false self, Enigma mentioned the conditioned self...that it is. Your ego is pretty-much a dead thing, a mass of recordings in the neural network of the brain. From birth to about the age of six baby/child is on a seesaw, a teeter-totter. At birth true self is holding down one end, feet on the ground, ego/persona/mask on the other end, nothing there, feet up in the air. As baby begins to store data in the brain, ego/persona begins to gain some weight. By about the age of six (give or take some months or even years), true self has disappeared, this end of the seesaw now up in the air, the other end weighed down, ego/persona has its feet on the ground. What has happened? At any time you think to do so, ask yourself where your attention is. Unless you have had a very long interior practice you will almost invariably find it is on some thought, emotion or action. IOW, your attention has actually been captured by and is being held by a thought, action or feeling. Your thoughts and feelings, which result in actions, are what constitute ego/persona/false self, the conditioned self, self. Notice another thing, whereas a newborn baby lives timelessly in the present moment, conditioned mind never lives in the present moment. self/conditioned mind/ego always lives either in the past through memory or the future through imagination. That's why I say that ego is essentially a dead thing, it's wholly composed of concepts, information stored in the neural network. You can also say it lives in sleep, ego/persona/conditioned mind can't but be asleep. Ego/conditioned mind is actually a cage that holds our attention captive. So, all that to say this. "Correct meditation" is simply freeing one's attention from being held captive. But simple is not easy. Freeing one's attention is the most difficult thing you will ever do. You actually have to learn to live like a little child again. Some excellent advise has been given in the previous posts. Your attention is separate from your thoughts, emotions, actions and sensations. If this were not so then we would be in a helpless situation. However, it is possible to separate out one's attention from one's thoughts, actions, feelings and sensations. Can ego/conditioned mind do this? No. Nothing can be done from the ego/persona side of the seesaw. This is why I said, in my original post on this thread, that self (little s)/ego/conditioned mind can do nothing, but it is not true that nothing can be done. You have to operate from the Self side of the seesaw, from true self/essence. If you can begin to live through your attention instead of it being constantly captured by thoughts, feelings and actions, then you begin to break the threads of captivity. You begin taking the energy out of ego/conditioned mind. And eventually there is a reversal of the seesaw, the true self/essence side gets weighty, and the ego/false self/conditioned mind side becomes the nothing side it actually is. So first you have to remember to ask yourself where your attention is, and then for a few seconds you can witness, observe what is, and then in a few more seconds, or minutes, or hours, or maybe even days, you will realize that your attention has once again disappeared into a thought, feeling or action.....and then you try again. So, maybe now you know more than you did when you started reading this post, maybe not (of course some here will not need this). But now maybe you begin to experiment a little, explore this. But simple is not easy. sdp I pretty much agree with what SDP has written here. However, I wouldn't say that ego/false self can think, feel, act, and sense because it simply doesn't exist. There is only one actor on the stage. It may appear to think, feel, act, and sense, but this is an illusionary appearance created by mistaking thoughts ABOUT reality for reality, itself. As E. would say, Source falls into the dream of its own creation by focusing upon thoughts rather than "what is." A second comment regards Max's observation that breathing speeds up when attention hones in on the observing/witnessing. When attention shifts away from thoughts to "what is" a phenomena called "the relaxation response" gets triggered, and usually breathing slows down, muscles relax, galvanic skin potential decreases, chest-breathing shifts to diaphragmatic-breathing, and many other similar things occur. These effects have been well documented by doctors and scientists who have studied meditators. I've noticed the same thing happens when doing informal ATA, so it makes me curious about what Max is doing when attention shifts from the breathing process to observing/witnessing. I no longer do much sitting meditation, but when I do, breathing slows down significantly, and can almost seem to stop. The reason people are advised not to meditate lying down is that they get so relaxed they often fall asleep. SDP's statement, "You actually have to learn to live like a little child again," has certainly been the experience of this body/mind, and his image of the seesaw is appropos. The image I have is that of an ocean liner traveling in a particular direction. When a new heading is called for, it takes a long time before the liner reacts to the rudder because of inertia. The liner first begins turning very slowly toward the new heading, but gradually picks up more and more turning speed as the inertia of the original heading is overcome. Adults who first begin noticing where attention is placed find that 99.999% of their attention is upon thoughts. Their internal dialogue jabbers incessantly, and it is very difficult to notice anything other than thoughts. If they persist in shifting attention away from thoughts, tiny noticeable gaps of silence may appear in the dialogue (the gaps were there in the past, but they went unnoticed). Gradually attention shifts more and more often to "what is," and it gets easier to hold attention upon "what is." The past and future lose importance and one becomes psychologically present. This shift in attentiveness clearly affects brain function because brain scans and other psycho-physical testing shows that different areas of the brain than usual "light up." How this causes ingrained beliefs to collapse, insights and realizations to occur, and what the intellect's role in this process is remains unknown. |
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Post by vacant on Apr 26, 2013 10:25:41 GMT -5
Now and as very often on this forum, I cannot buy the smug advice on how to improve one's situation, realization, clarity etc. As far as I can see it is more condoning and stimulating the vanity of a self taking the reins of destiny, dangling the carrot in front of the hamster wheel. I admit it is to be expected and fair going on a website called spiritualteachers, but I seem to always come back to a simple question: who is for seeking improvement on what-is, and who is interested in the wonder of what-is as it is? Dream of a cunning plan in hope for paradize (the original sin in christian legend) or give-up in appreciation? Everytime I want to post something of this sort I end-up not going there lest I should ruffle feathers or go against the grain of a popular forum (as in "leave it, that's what those guys are into and it's o so fine") or for fear of talking as if I knew stuff —I don't, I'm dead lost, and living with it rather than trying to be found, and that's no recommendation or advice. I don't even know if I mean anything, just using this space for a rant, with love  Hi Vacant: On the last two pages of this thread please look where the words are pointing. They are pointing AWAY from selfhood, and are not saying anything about improving upon "what is." The words are pointing toward the seeing of "what is," and being "what is," rather than having thoughts ABOUT "what is." The idea of paradise implies that "there's something in it for me." The words here are pointing to the opposite of that. There is nothing in it for a "me." On this path everything is eventually lost. The words are saying that what a seeker is searching for is what the seeker already is. The seeker and the finder turn out to be the same one. As for ruffling feathers, please do! Thank you ZD, upon re-reading: yes, you are mostly right, and it may be that my rant was a tad off pitch. FWIW, I fault on selective reading, which is unfair, but some of your phrasings on this thread alone ie <the path of discovering the living truth is ignoring distractive thoughts and becoming still enough to see what is already the case>, ie <shifting attention away from thoughts to “what is” leads to freedom from the mind>, ie <*scrub scrub scrub* or “look look look* or “listen listen listen* is the path to freedom> seem to me to imply the value of applied methodology, of causality and becoming, and thus could be misleading coming from a poster of your much respected clarity. Would you agree? Am I in error? But for the ruffling I prefer not!  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2013 12:57:25 GMT -5
It's not really a choice. But it does seem like there are two focal areas. There's (1) sensations and (2) witnessing perspective (?). The intention is to stick with (1) but I've found (2) to be enticing so have been checking it out. Is that just more distraction hocus pocus? If I may ask, why does there need to be a preference between the two foci? Going back to the QM, whether there is an apparent focus on sensation or an apparent focus on the witnessing perspective, both are being rendered as "what is" for you right now. moment 1: Now the body is looking at a computer screen and mind is constricted in thought moment 2: Now the body is sitting on the couch, mind relaxed, in meditation moment 3: Now the body is rutting around with another body, mind flooded with emotion. moment 4: Now the body is showering, the mind is humming to itself. moment 5: Now the body is driving, the mind is switching attention to feel the world moving within a still reference frame. moment 6: Now the body has cut itself while chopping carrots for dinner, the mind is in a panic to stop the bleeding. ... I would propose that there is more encompassing perspective than the two you are presenting which allows the mind and body to do what it does and wander between narrowed attention, broad attention, watching the observer, losing self-consciousness in play, etc. Simply be aware of what state the body-mind is in right now and allow that state to freely change moment by moment. No requirement of one state over another. Present, aware, listening, observing however the experience manifests. When attention is directed towards the observing (back), the attention to the breathing sensations are not lost, but they are less sharp. When attention is focused on the breathing sensations, the focal point can get extremely sharp, but observing is not noticeably observed.  I'm just wondering what is 'correct.' Maybe it is like you say -- to broaden the focus in general and just allow whatever. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2013 13:02:21 GMT -5
Max: Like Top, I would ask you to watch what's happening when direct sensory perception shifts to an observational mode. During ATA there is no observer. What's probably happening is a subtle shifting back and forth between non-conceptual and conceptual observation. Check it out. In the direct sensory mode there is just the sensation going on. It is generally unstable, like if I just take a moment right now to listen to the HVAC system. Attention is tuned into the sensory stuff but then flits back to thinking and back to sensory. Lots of wavering. The sensory focus is also always subject to doubt, though after the fact. After about 15-20 minutes of sitting meditation on breathing, it is more stable. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2013 13:14:41 GMT -5
Are you implying that the indirect evidence needs to be believed in as having a self at it's origin and that that belief is 'self-fulfilling'? The indirect evidence is stuff like: lack of certainty, continued reactivity in relationships (though not as much). If the goal is to end the seeking game, and I'm seeking certainty or confidence, that search is already taking me a step away from the source from which authentic confidence is founded? aye, okay. So one method for explaining away the reactivity thing is to say that it is just the behaviour resulting from conditioning. Button Z is pushed and behavior Z! results. No central self required. In the largest sense, self IS conditioning. So conditioning doesn't run without a self. Hmm. My understanding was that the mind-body is conditioned to behave in certain ways under certain conditions. Conditioning is just the shaping of the mind-body, or programming. Given various stimuli it responds in certain ways. This is just part of life in this Universe. And in fact life is not necessary for conditioning to be present. IOW, inanimate objects can be conditioned. A stone slowly erodes under friction from water. I thought that the myth of self is based on assigning reactions due to conditioning to a self. So, even without a belief in self, reactions will continue but not dwelled on, etc. Anger will happen (due to conditioning) but not recycled (due to storytelling about the self). So the contributions to the myth of self, in this case, would be my belief that there is indirect evidence that my belief exists? Observing reactivity in relationships and then assigning that to some residual unconscious belief in self is what I'm doing. Are you saying that that assignation is part of the story? |
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Post by topology on Apr 26, 2013 13:18:20 GMT -5
If I may ask, why does there need to be a preference between the two foci? Going back to the QM, whether there is an apparent focus on sensation or an apparent focus on the witnessing perspective, both are being rendered as "what is" for you right now. moment 1: Now the body is looking at a computer screen and mind is constricted in thought moment 2: Now the body is sitting on the couch, mind relaxed, in meditation moment 3: Now the body is rutting around with another body, mind flooded with emotion. moment 4: Now the body is showering, the mind is humming to itself. moment 5: Now the body is driving, the mind is switching attention to feel the world moving within a still reference frame. moment 6: Now the body has cut itself while chopping carrots for dinner, the mind is in a panic to stop the bleeding. ... I would propose that there is more encompassing perspective than the two you are presenting which allows the mind and body to do what it does and wander between narrowed attention, broad attention, watching the observer, losing self-consciousness in play, etc. Simply be aware of what state the body-mind is in right now and allow that state to freely change moment by moment. No requirement of one state over another. Present, aware, listening, observing however the experience manifests. When attention is directed towards the observing (back), the attention to the breathing sensations are not lost, but they are less sharp. When attention is focused on the breathing sensations, the focal point can get extremely sharp, but observing is not noticeably observed. I'm just wondering what is 'correct.' Maybe it is like you say -- to broaden the focus in general and just allow whatever. What is it that is fundamentally aware of attention shifting, narrowing, broadening, etc... Not looking for a conceptual response, but an observational one. Is that-which-is-aware also shifting, broadening, narrowing along with the shifting attention? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2013 13:23:41 GMT -5
I dropped in last night, few added comments (one that left me exasperated...)......seems things were cooking a little today, some good stuff........ Most excellent repeat of Shawn Nevins comments..... Good that you picked up on correct meditation, correct was there for a reason. I'll try to be brief. Consider a newborn baby. Can a baby conceptualize? No. So what is a baby functioning through? A baby is born functioning through its attention, is born with attention, we could say a baby is living through their true self, their essence. Nature has gifted us with this wonderful brain/body. Baby from day one (actually, even somewhat while still in the womb) begins to collect information through the senses, information being recorded in the neural structure of the brain. Baby is breezing along in direct contact with reality living through their attention, timelessly, but at the same time storing the data. Eventually baby begins to connect what it senses with a symbolic representation, a particular word, baby is learning language. By the age of two a baby has a pretty good vocabulary and growing rapidly. Go back and trace your earliest memories, they will almost invariably be of direct sensations, probably sights, probably vivid color. With all the data stored, baby is forming a cultural self, AKA ego/false self, Enigma mentioned the conditioned self...that it is. Your ego is pretty-much a dead thing, a mass of recordings in the neural network of the brain. From birth to about the age of six baby/child is on a seesaw, a teeter-totter. At birth true self is holding down one end, feet on the ground, ego/persona/mask on the other end, nothing there, feet up in the air. As baby begins to store data in the brain, ego/persona begins to gain some weight. By about the age of six (give or take some months or even years), true self has disappeared, this end of the seesaw now up in the air, the other end weighed down, ego/persona has its feet on the ground. What has happened? At any time you think to do so, ask yourself where your attention is. Unless you have had a very long interior practice you will almost invariably find it is on some thought, emotion or action. IOW, your attention has actually been captured by and is being held by a thought, action or feeling. Your thoughts and feelings, which result in actions, are what constitute ego/persona/false self, the conditioned self, self. Notice another thing, whereas a newborn baby lives timelessly in the present moment, conditioned mind never lives in the present moment. self/conditioned mind/ego always lives either in the past through memory or the future through imagination. That's why I say that ego is essentially a dead thing, it's wholly composed of concepts, information stored in the neural network. You can also say it lives in sleep, ego/persona/conditioned mind can't but be asleep. Ego/conditioned mind is actually a cage that holds our attention captive. So, all that to say this. "Correct meditation" is simply freeing one's attention from being held captive. But simple is not easy. Freeing one's attention is the most difficult thing you will ever do. You actually have to learn to live like a little child again. Some excellent advise has been given in the previous posts. Your attention is separate from your thoughts, emotions, actions and sensations. If this were not so then we would be in a helpless situation. However, it is possible to separate out one's attention from one's thoughts, actions, feelings and sensations. Can ego/conditioned mind do this? No. Nothing can be done from the ego/persona side of the seesaw. This is why I said, in my original post on this thread, that self (little s)/ego/conditioned mind can do nothing, but it is not true that nothing can be done. You have to operate from the Self side of the seesaw, from true self/essence. If you can begin to live through your attention instead of it being constantly captured by thoughts, feelings and actions, then you begin to break the threads of captivity. You begin taking the energy out of ego/conditioned mind. And eventually there is a reversal of the seesaw, the true self/essence side gets weighty, and the ego/false self/conditioned mind side becomes the nothing side it actually is. So first you have to remember to ask yourself where your attention is, and then for a few seconds you can witness, observe what is, and then in a few more seconds, or minutes, or hours, or maybe even days, you will realize that your attention has once again disappeared into a thought, feeling or action.....and then you try again. So, maybe now you know more than you did when you started reading this post, maybe not (of course some here will not need this). But now maybe you begin to experiment a little, explore this. But simple is not easy. sdp I pretty much agree with what SDP has written here. However, I wouldn't say that ego/false self can think, feel, act, and sense because it simply doesn't exist. There is only one actor on the stage. It may appear to think, feel, act, and sense, but this is an illusionary appearance created by mistaking thoughts ABOUT reality for reality, itself. As E. would say, Source falls into the dream of its own creation by focusing upon thoughts rather than "what is." A second comment regards Max's observation that breathing speeds up when attention hones in on the observing/witnessing. When attention shifts away from thoughts to "what is" a phenomena called "the relaxation response" gets triggered, and usually breathing slows down, muscles relax, galvanic skin potential decreases, chest-breathing shifts to diaphragmatic-breathing, and many other similar things occur. These effects have been well documented by doctors and scientists who have studied meditators. I've noticed the same thing happens when doing informal ATA, so it makes me curious about what Max is doing when attention shifts from the breathing process to observing/witnessing. I no longer do much sitting meditation, but when I do, breathing slows down significantly, and can almost seem to stop. The reason people are advised not to meditate lying down is that they get so relaxed they often fall asleep. Yes that's why I mentioned it. Typically with 'effortless meditation' where attention generally comes back to the raw sensations but generally shifts around and does what it does without intervention, I do relax and the mind gets very slowed down. The quickness of breath and increased energy came when I noticed that there was a constant unchanging observing going on -- an angle sort of back behind the sensory stuff. When attempting to observe that observing, back perspective, the increased energy and breathing rate happened. It was odd because I hadn't noticed the observing before and so it was sort of new. Maybe the increased respiration was related to excitement over something new. Or maybe it was because I was getting tangled up in some sort of subtle conception. We are the 99.999%! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2013 13:25:08 GMT -5
Well maybe the question for the seeker then is what is the most effective way to exhaust that energy that is being directed away from the truth of the situation? .................../............... Just to add a few more things, using this to piggyback...... What's simple is not easy, so we can begin with what's easier. You can begin with the senses, notice colors, notice sounds, the sound of your own voice, notice the shapes of material objects, notice your sense of touch, what your bottom feels like on your chair, the itch when you scratch, the tension in your face, notice smells, really taste your food. Then you can observe how your body moves, your muscles as you walk or run, notice how you gesture, notice any action your body takes. Thoughts and emotions are harder to observe (I think you have found or will find). Everything you think or feel belongs to ego/conditioned mind. As I said, once cultural self is formed, your attention is virtually always in the use of self and captured and held in the vast web of the neural structure of self. This is why it's difficult to observe self, observe one's thoughts and emotions. When you try to observe thoughts, your attention almost immediately disappears into the thought, you lose the thread. And thoughts and emotions happen automatically, self operates almost all the time. self is its side of the seesaw on the ground, your essential Self side up in the air. This is its natural ground state, it's like the electron of a Hydrogen atom lowest orbital, its lowest energy level. What's the most effective way to exhaust the energy being directed away from the truth of the situation? This is the purpose of living through your attention, you begin taking out the energy which keeps cultural self/conditioned mind functioning. Why start with the senses and then one's physical movements? It's easier. And it doesn't really matter what your thinking and feeling, as all these belong to ego/conditioned mind/persona (at least in the beginning and actually for a very long time, not to be worried about for now). If you can live through your attention, you're 'giving weight' to the Self/essential side of the seesaw. And no matter what you have to do every day (what cultural self has to do, job wise for example), there are numerous opportunities to seprate-out one's attention by sensing or observing one's physical actions, waiting in line, waiting on the phone, going to the water fountain or the bathroom. But what are we always doing? Ordinary mind is busy daydreaming, it just goes off on its own......this is its job, just jumping here and there through association. It's like the Energizer Bunny, it never stops. But you can observe your sensations and your actions. Doing so you are taking back your attention, the attention which is now lost being held by self. In taking back your attention you are breaking a single thread of a rope, taking the energy out of conditioned self. And this energy accumulates in the body. It's like filling a five-gallon bucket drop-by-drop, but some day the bucket overflows.......and you're never the same again. But absolutely nothing can be done, in a real sense, from the side of conditioned mind. You can read helpful books, good books, we can get inspiration and knowledge. You have just read these two posts, but now you can experiment with what the words direct, or not. Words can point to practices, but actually doing them is different. You have to come to understand, on your own, what the words are pointing to, actual interior practices. But cultural self/conditioned mind isn't interested in these kinds of words. You have to decide what interests you most, and put your time and energy there. Just remember, ego/conditioned mind operates automatically. It just goes on and on and on maintaining control, stealing all your energy. One more thing, awareness and attention are actually two different modes, so to speak. Attention is like a laser, awareness is like a flood light. Consider attending, is to particular things. Consider awareness as a whole, taking in the whole. And there is a part of yourself that always lives in the present moment. You can go for hours and hardly notice it, days even. It can be an anchor. Whereas the very purpose of thoughts is to take you out of the present moment (a thought is an abstract construct, always representing something else, always at least once removed from reality, so thoughts must necessarily take you out of the present moment), your physical body is always in the present moment. sdp Good advice sdp. This is how I understand ATA and what I do in meditation. |
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Post by zendancer on Apr 26, 2013 13:37:51 GMT -5
Hi Vacant: On the last two pages of this thread please look where the words are pointing. They are pointing AWAY from selfhood, and are not saying anything about improving upon "what is." The words are pointing toward the seeing of "what is," and being "what is," rather than having thoughts ABOUT "what is." The idea of paradise implies that "there's something in it for me." The words here are pointing to the opposite of that. There is nothing in it for a "me." On this path everything is eventually lost. The words are saying that what a seeker is searching for is what the seeker already is. The seeker and the finder turn out to be the same one. As for ruffling feathers, please do! Thank you ZD, upon re-reading: yes, you are mostly right, and it may be that my rant was a tad off pitch. FWIW, I fault on selective reading, which is unfair, but some of your phrasings on this thread alone ie <the path of discovering the living truth is ignoring distractive thoughts and becoming still enough to see what is already the case>, ie <shifting attention away from thoughts to “what is” leads to freedom from the mind>, ie <*scrub scrub scrub* or “look look look* or “listen listen listen* is the path to freedom> seem to me to imply the value of applied methodology, of causality and becoming, and thus could be misleading coming from a poster of your much respected clarity. Would you agree? Am I in error? But for the ruffling I prefer not! Words are crude little things when used as pointers, so if they don't resonate, throw 'em away. Yes, the words I used could be considered to be an applied methodology and point to the future, but remember, there's only one here, so the unfoldment proceeds however it will. Ramana's silence may be the best pointer, but even he finally started using words as pointers for people who didn't see where the silence was pointing. "Be Still and know that I am God" is a great pointer from the Bible, but millions of Christians can't see where those words are pointing. My words in the prior posts were simply expanding upon the same theme. The Zen novice is instructed to sit down and watch the breathing process. I expand that advice to include ATA throughout the day. Both activities require psychological presence, and both activities help people come out of their minds and back to reality. As I've noted before, when attentiveness is pursued, it is pursued under the illusion that there is a "someone" pursuing it. Many people practice meditation for years, and never see through that illusion because they think that the activity is special and that they are "making spiritual progress." Until it is seen that the do-er is a product of imagination, they remain trapped in a vicious cycle. |
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Post by topology on Apr 26, 2013 13:48:46 GMT -5
I pretty much agree with what SDP has written here. However, I wouldn't say that ego/false self can think, feel, act, and sense because it simply doesn't exist. There is only one actor on the stage. It may appear to think, feel, act, and sense, but this is an illusionary appearance created by mistaking thoughts ABOUT reality for reality, itself. As E. would say, Source falls into the dream of its own creation by focusing upon thoughts rather than "what is." A second comment regards Max's observation that breathing speeds up when attention hones in on the observing/witnessing. When attention shifts away from thoughts to "what is" a phenomena called "the relaxation response" gets triggered, and usually breathing slows down, muscles relax, galvanic skin potential decreases, chest-breathing shifts to diaphragmatic-breathing, and many other similar things occur. These effects have been well documented by doctors and scientists who have studied meditators. I've noticed the same thing happens when doing informal ATA, so it makes me curious about what Max is doing when attention shifts from the breathing process to observing/witnessing. I no longer do much sitting meditation, but when I do, breathing slows down significantly, and can almost seem to stop. The reason people are advised not to meditate lying down is that they get so relaxed they often fall asleep. Yes that's why I mentioned it. Typically with 'effortless meditation' where attention generally comes back to the raw sensations but generally shifts around and does what it does without intervention, I do relax and the mind gets very slowed down. The quickness of breath and increased energy came when I noticed that there was a constant unchanging observing going on -- an angle sort of back behind the sensory stuff. When attempting to observe that observing, back perspective, the increased energy and breathing rate happened. It was odd because I hadn't noticed the observing before and so it was sort of new. Maybe the increased respiration was related to excitement over something new. Or maybe it was because I was getting tangled up in some sort of subtle conception. We are the 99.999%! Heheh, sounds like your mind said "In the calm water I am beginning to see something, let me shift around and narrow my attention to look at it, OH CRAP the water is choppy now..." |
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Post by silence on Apr 26, 2013 13:51:27 GMT -5
This shift in attentiveness clearly affects brain function because brain scans and other psycho-physical testing shows that different areas of the brain than usual "light up." How this causes ingrained beliefs to collapse, insights and realizations to occur, and what the intellect's role in this process is remains unknown. There's actually some interesting stuff out there about the pineal gland and the level of DMT it secretes. It's said that the levels of DMT being secreted on the lower scale basically determine how vibrant and alive life appears versus dull, flat, boring. On the higher end, DMT can produce wild beyond belief cosmic consciousness experiences pretty consistently in just about everyone taking large doses or meditating until the hormone is released in large doses. |
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