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Post by lilithz on May 4, 2011 10:52:14 GMT -5
The whole reason I have joined these forums is just a little while ago coming across John Wren Lewis's very interesting account of his NDE, and how the fruits of that experience continue.
I quote this bit here:
Even so, there have been plenty of problems in adjusting to awakened life, because the rest of the world is still taking the separation state for granted, and my own “resurrected” mind still contains programs based on the assumptions of that state. So in the early days I made every effort to assume the role of spiritual seeker in the hope of finding help. It came as a real disappointment to find that no one I consulted, either in person or through books, had a clue, because ancient traditions and modern movements alike take for granted that the kind of eternity consciousness I’m living in is the preserve of spiritual Olympians, the mystical equivalent of Nobel laureates.
Hmmmm, I wonder if John is not familiar with Goddess and Pagan understanding of the sacredness of reality? Ie., I can completely dig when he says how so many books, and myths are stuck in a linear groove for some enlightenment in-the-future, or at some time nature being 'put right'--I am VERY familiar with that, but does he not know about the work of radical feminists who have de-constructed the androcentric belief systems and rather talk about a Goddess who they have suppressed? I am just asking.
Now the next thing I must add, that i WAS surprised to find these forums, and their title, because I had presumed John was warning people OFF 'spiritual teachers' for precsiely the reason they tend to dangle the carrot/bliss-in-the-future in front of their gullible followers. I saw this a lot with devotees of J.Krishnamurti!
ALSO say you haven't GOT that feeling John describes, and yet still feel that nature is sacred, does this mean you need to 'get it'? Feel me? What about 'normal' feeling, is that NOT sacred? Or does it have to be 'mystical'?
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Post by mamza on May 4, 2011 11:10:46 GMT -5
The ideas of sacredness and mysticism can apply to anything you want to apply them to. If you want normal to be sacred, it will be sacred. But in order for normal to be sacred, something else would have to be the opposite of sacred; and the idea here is that 'eternity consciousness' encompasses everything--it's infinite/eternal/whatever.
In order for that to happen, it has to contain both the sacred/mystical stuff and their opposites. If you feel that anything is one thing or another, you're not seeing the whole as far as I can tell. But what can I tell anyway? Haha.
Just my own personal opinion here, but as long as you feel like there's something to 'get,' you're never going to get 'it.' Or you may just chase after 'it' until you drop, and 'it' will become clear. Either way, just keep truckin'.
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Post by lilithz on May 4, 2011 13:14:05 GMT -5
The ideas of sacredness and mysticism can apply to anything you want to apply them to. If you want normal to be sacred, it will be sacred. But in order for normal to be sacred, something else would have to be the opposite of sacred; and the idea here is that 'eternity consciousness' encompasses everything--it's infinite/eternal/whatever. In order for that to happen, it has to contain both the sacred/mystical stuff and their opposites. If you feel that anything is one thing or another, you're not seeing the whole as far as I can tell. But what can I tell anyway? Haha. Just my own personal opinion here, but as long as you feel like there's something to 'get,' you're never going to get 'it.' Or you may just chase after 'it' until you drop, and 'it' will become clear. Either way, just keep truckin'. Well if you are sad you are sad. The trouble I had with J Krishmaurti for example was that on one hand he insisted that you dont have to 'make effort' but then would look at his audiences and say 'no, you haven't got it!' yes? No matter what you say, IF you posit a mystical state you are saying someone who is normal hasn't got it. It is a mindfuck. This is why i was glad to get out of the oppressive power of K, and ALL gurus. YES, you can have deep experience---ie., such as with psychedelics, but there is ALSO the 'come down' too. Now if John claims to have this infinity in an hour feeling 'all-the-time' this is JUST the same as 'all-is-good' philosophies. In fact this is where I should imagine his mystic experience greatly differs from Goddess and pagan understanding as there is no demand to BE in a mystical state which is 'superior'. In this way we can empathize with the real victims of this society, and not imagine they are 'lacking' spiritually. ALSo we do not pretend everything is fine as it is, and choose activism. |
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Post by Portto on May 4, 2011 14:15:53 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum, Lili! You certainly have a lot of experience! we do not pretend everything is fine as it is, and choose activism. Is your choice influenced (dependent) or uninfluenced (independent)? |
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Post by mamza on May 4, 2011 14:51:17 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum, Lili! You certainly have a lot of experience! we do not pretend everything is fine as it is, and choose activism. Is your choice influenced (dependent) or uninfluenced (independent)? I think this hits it pretty well. To not 'make effort' is essentially the same as 'stop doing something to make ___ happen.' The biggest problem anyone has in all this business is that we keep trying and trying to make enlightenment happen, to search endlessly for it. There's this little guy in the back of our heads screaming, "I CAN FIND IT! I CAN FIND IT!" Have you ever focused on anything so intently that nothing else in the world appears? Stop focusing. Stop making an effort to have something fit into your idea of something. I think that's what he's trying to say. |
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Post by enigma on May 4, 2011 15:55:38 GMT -5
The whole reason I have joined these forums is just a little while ago coming across John Wren Lewis's very interesting account of his NDE, and how the fruits of that experience continue. I quote this bit here: Even so, there have been plenty of problems in adjusting to awakened life, because the rest of the world is still taking the separation state for granted, and my own “resurrected” mind still contains programs based on the assumptions of that state. So in the early days I made every effort to assume the role of spiritual seeker in the hope of finding help. It came as a real disappointment to find that no one I consulted, either in person or through books, had a clue, because ancient traditions and modern movements alike take for granted that the kind of eternity consciousness I’m living in is the preserve of spiritual Olympians, the mystical equivalent of Nobel laureates.The difficulty in his case is that it IS a mind state experience rather than the realization that "spiritual olympians" talk about. If separation is, in fact, seen to be untrue, the mind doesn't still hold 'assumption programs'. Just for starters, the mind isn't a separate thing that stubbornly holds it's own separate programs. All of that collapses in the genuine seeing, though it continues in the wake of a mind state experience. The fact that he assumed a role of spiritual seeker is in contradiction to this alleged realization that nothing is separate. Since he isn't living in some 'eternity consciousness', he may have difficulty finding somebody who shares his own particular delusional mind state, so disappointment is probly inevitable. The idea that all ancient traditions and modern movements have no clue about his elevated state sounds a little like spiritual ego on the rampage, though I don't know him and have only your quote to go on. Your quote doesn't seem to reflect anything about sacredness or enlightenment in the future, and I don't see how radical feminist deconstruction relates in any way. What does John's warnings have to do with the presence of spiritual forums? ? |
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Post by souley on May 5, 2011 2:55:25 GMT -5
The fact that he assumed a role of spiritual seeker is in contradiction to this alleged realization that nothing is separate. Since he isn't living in some 'eternity consciousness', he may have difficulty finding somebody who shares his own particular delusional mind state, so disappointment is probly inevitable. The idea that all ancient traditions and modern movements have no clue about his elevated state sounds a little like spiritual ego on the rampage, though I don't know him and have only your quote to go on. Here is the article referred to: www.nonduality.com/dazdark.htmI think John Wren Lewis is the real deal, he just had no previous knowledge or experience of spirituality so after his realization he was looking for answers. But he didnt get any good answers from the "spiritual community" since they refused to believe he woke up just like that. Something along those lines.. Read the article its pretty good. I'm sorry I can't comment on the first posts I'm not sure I understand them! |
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Post by lilithz on May 5, 2011 18:10:37 GMT -5
Thanks for the interested responses.
The bottom line is 'i dont know' lol
it is smug I suppse to say I am alright as I am? So I will say I am evolving. I am a flow that evolves, but not in a linear way. I embrace emotions so can feel sad in the morning, and then have a giggle by afternoon, and so on
I see life as a contunuum of experience. But I also see things very oppressive in the world, and i feel that empathy is really important.
I dont see any value in telling someone living in a horrible place that meditation is the answer. NO, what they want like what WE want if we are honest is being in a place that is pleasant, and this raises our spirit, like a walk in a wonderful place does.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2013 8:30:04 GMT -5
Here is the article referred to: www.nonduality.com/dazdark.htmI think John Wren Lewis is the real deal, he just had no previous knowledge or experience of spirituality so after his realization he was looking for answers. But he didnt get any good answers from the "spiritual community" since they refused to believe he woke up just like that. Something along those lines.. Read the article its pretty good. I'm sorry I can't comment on the first posts I'm not sure I understand them! I liked this bit at the end: |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 23, 2013 22:51:39 GMT -5
Here is the article referred to: www.nonduality.com/dazdark.htmI think John Wren Lewis is the real deal, he just had no previous knowledge or experience of spirituality so after his realization he was looking for answers. But he didnt get any good answers from the "spiritual community" since they refused to believe he woke up just like that. Something along those lines.. Read the article its pretty good. I'm sorry I can't comment on the first posts I'm not sure I understand them! I liked this bit at the end:
Some arrive at an awakened state and don't know how they got there so say there isn't a path to get there. I've never heard of John Wren-Lewis before, but just from what's been posted here, he's stumbled upon it. I'm glad maxdprophet commented here or else I probably would never have found this.
There isn't anything self can do to come to Self, but that doesn't mean that nothing can be done. Consider a stairway with self at the bottom. Self exists on a different level. There is a break between levels, the "lower" cannot lead to the higher. Again, this is why some say that there is no path. But quantum physics give us an analogy for what can occur. An electron in an atom has different states possible, is capable of being in different prescribed orbitals. Under ordinary circumstances an electron of a Hydrogen atom exists in a sort of baseline state of its lowest energy level, that's self in ordinary life. But the electron (it's actually a sort of electron cloud with no definite place or momentum) can move to a higher energy, a higher orbital if it absorbs energy by being hit by a photon. And then it can go back to the lower energy level by emitting a photon. It does this without traversing time or space, this is the quantum leap.
Likewise, the difference between self and Self is a difference in energy levels. John Wren-Lewis describes the extraordinary state he found himself in. Why is ego/self an obstruction to the "Infinite Aliveness" Wren-Lewis describes? Because ego/false self steals all our energy. We waste an enormous amount of energy daily, in small increments minute by minute. So what's the key? The key is to live through Self instead of self. There is no path because to "reach" Self we have to already be there, we have to operate through that part of us (in a manner of speaking) that already IS on this higher (in a manner of speaking) level.
This is what seals up the leaks. Gradually, over time (yes over time) there is the possibility of accumulating enough energy to make this jump from our ordinary state to this "Infinite Aliveness". This is like an electron absorbing the energy of a photon and jumping to a higher energy level. It happens instantaneously, in the blink of an eye. And sadly, most people who have arrived at this Infinite Aliveness, come down from the high. .........And if you don't know how you got there you don't know how to 'get back'. ............And then you write books and gather students (or they just show up) or just go back into dreary life. (If you don't know that ordinary life is dreary, if you come to this Infinite Aliveness, you'll know that ordinary life is dreary......and almost unbearable when you come back down).
Your attention comes from this higher level (figure of speech, manner of speaking), but it does. This is why correct meditation is the key (in various forms). Ego/false self cannot make this effort, that's why it is said that nothing can be done. From the standpoint of self nothing can be done, but this doesn't mean that nothing can be done. Now, you may or may not know more than you knew when you started reading this post. Ego/false self can think, feel, act and sense. None of these lead to this Infinite Aliveness.
sdp
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Post by enigma on Apr 24, 2013 1:58:21 GMT -5
I liked this bit at the end:
There isn't anything self can do to come to Self, but that doesn't mean that nothing can be done. Consider a stairway with self at the bottom. Self exists on a different level. There is a break between levels, the "lower" cannot lead to the higher. Again, this is why some say that there is no path. But quantum physics give us an analogy for what can occur. An electron in an atom has different states possible, is capable of being in different prescribed orbitals. Under ordinary circumstances an electron of a Hydrogen atom exists in a sort of baseline state of its lowest energy level, that's self in ordinary life. But the electron (it's actually a sort of electron cloud with no definite place or momentum) can move to a higher energy, a higher orbital if it absorbs energy by being hit by a photon. And then it can go back to the lower energy level by emitting a photon. It does this without traversing time or space, this is the quantum leap.
Likewise, the difference between self and Self is a difference in energy levels. John Wren-Lewis describes the extraordinary state he found himself in. Why is ego/self an obstruction to the "Infinite Aliveness" Wren-Lewis describes? Because ego/false self steals all our energy. We waste an enormous amount of energy daily, in small increments minute by minute. So what's the key? The key is to live through Self instead of self. There is no path because to "reach" Self we have to already be there, we have to operate through that part of us (in a manner of speaking) that already IS on this higher (in a manner of speaking) level.
This is what seals up the leaks. Gradually, over time (yes over time) there is the possibility of accumulating enough energy to make this jump from our ordinary state to this "Infinite Aliveness". This is like an electron absorbing the energy of a photon and jumping to a higher energy level. It happens instantaneously, in the blink of an eye. And sadly, most people who have arrived at this Infinite Aliveness, come down from the high. .........And if you don't know how you got there you don't know how to 'get back'. ............And then you write books and gather students (or they just show up) or just go back into dreary life. (If you don't know that ordinary life is dreary, if you come to this Infinite Aliveness, you'll know that ordinary life is dreary......and almost unbearable when you come back down).
Your attention comes from this higher level (figure of speech, manner of speaking), but it does. This is why correct meditation is the key (in various forms). Ego/false self cannot make this effort, that's why it is said that nothing can be done. From the standpoint of self nothing can be done, but this doesn't mean that nothing can be done. Now, you may or may not know more than you knew when you started reading this post. Ego/false self can think, feel, act and sense. None of these lead to this Infinite Aliveness.
sdp
It is said that there is nothing that can be done to become that which you already are, as you suggest. There is no becoming, and so no doing, seeking, traveling, no process, no 'distance'to cover, no time needed, no energy build up, no state transition. All attempts to become what you are would ultimately be seen as distractions and could not possibly be part of a movement toward the goal, but only the exhausting of energy that is being directed away from the truth of the situation. The goal of the seeking is simply to end the seeking, not to actually find something. How could you find yourself when you never lost yourself? How could get one millimeter or one nanosecond away from yourself? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2013 8:07:34 GMT -5
Your attention comes from this higher level (figure of speech, manner of speaking), but it does. This is why correct meditation is the key (in various forms). Ego/false self cannot make this effort, that's why it is said that nothing can be done. From the standpoint of self nothing can be done, but this doesn't mean that nothing can be done. Now, you may or may not know more than you knew when you started reading this post. Ego/false self can think, feel, act and sense. None of these lead to this Infinite Aliveness. sdp Of course my little brain seized on your 'correct meditation.' I've been wondering the same. I've been doing (!) effortless meditation. Basically I just get myself sitting and then come what may. Because the intention of meditating is there, the attention naturally shifts back to the anchor (breathing in my case). No expectations, no effort, etc. Adyashanti calls it True Meditation (from Way of Liberation). Also it's recommended by TAT folks -- Mike Conners. I've noticed recently that when attention hones in on the observing/witnessing the breathing speeds up and gets more energetic. I like JWL's idea of looking into lateral thinking. Haven't found any more mention of it with regard to sidestepping this whole Catch 22, however. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2013 8:19:06 GMT -5
It is said that there is nothing that can be done to become that which you already are, as you suggest. There is no becoming, and so no doing, seeking, traveling, no process, no 'distance'to cover, no time needed, no energy build up, no state transition. All attempts to become what you are would ultimately be seen as distractions and could not possibly be part of a movement toward the goal, but only the exhausting of energy that is being directed away from the truth of the situation. The goal of the seeking is simply to end the seeking, not to actually find something. How could you find yourself when you never lost yourself? How could get one millimeter or one nanosecond away from yourself? Well maybe the question for the seeker then is what is the most effective way to exhaust that energy that is being directed away from the truth of the situation? "Just BE! fer Crissakes. GET OUT."  If the goal is to end seeking, how is that done? Just stop. Maybe that works for some. cheers to you! give it a try. Seems like it would be a fulltime job in itself, though. Probably manifest in a myriad other ways. The other thing I liked about John W-L is how he basically says there is no prescription. Everyone does it differently in their own unique way (even though it may seem they took similar paths). This isn't to say that pointers and such don't matter -- it's all in the mix. |
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Post by enigma on Apr 25, 2013 10:25:15 GMT -5
It is said that there is nothing that can be done to become that which you already are, as you suggest. There is no becoming, and so no doing, seeking, traveling, no process, no 'distance'to cover, no time needed, no energy build up, no state transition. All attempts to become what you are would ultimately be seen as distractions and could not possibly be part of a movement toward the goal, but only the exhausting of energy that is being directed away from the truth of the situation. The goal of the seeking is simply to end the seeking, not to actually find something. How could you find yourself when you never lost yourself? How could get one millimeter or one nanosecond away from yourself? "Just BE! fer Crissakes. GET OUT." If the goal is to end seeking, how is that done? Just stop. Maybe that works for some. cheers to you! give it a try. Seems like it would be a fulltime job in itself, though. Probably manifest in a myriad other ways. The other thing I liked about John W-L is how he basically says there is no prescription. Everyone does it differently in their own unique way (even though it may seem they took similar paths). This isn't to say that pointers and such don't matter -- it's all in the mix. The seeking is happening because of the belief in some ideas that aren't true. |
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Post by zendancer on Apr 25, 2013 10:32:10 GMT -5
Yes, it is impossible to be other than "what is," or to move a millimeter away from being "what is," but most folks are distracted by their thoughts and jerked around hither and thither, psychologically. The path of discovering the living truth is ignoring distractive thoughts and becoming still enough to see what is already the case.
John WL apparently had a cosmic consciousness experience, and searched, unsuccessfully, for other people who had both experienced his unitive state of mind and also understood the implications of it. Many people have such experiences, but very few people go far enough to see, understand, and then internalize the implications. Bottom line? Who we are is "what is" manifesting momentarily as human beings. Cosmic consciousness experiences and everyday life experiences are all part of the seamless continuum that constitutes "what is." All separateness is an illusion. Shifting attention away from thoughts to "what is" leads to freedom from the mind (mind as servant rather than master) and becoming comfortable living in the emptiness of "what is" as "what is." One/Oneness then lives an ordinary life free of expectation, desire, or self interest. If grace appears, grace. If humor appears, humor. If sadness appears, sadness. If suckiness appears, suckiness. Not knowing is the Way.
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