Bye bye

[sharon]

Most of the formal koans are a bit more challenging, but this should provide a general flavor of how they work.

I've know you've been saying it, though I has to put it in me own words ~ Basically, they are a direct engagement with body and not mind yeah?

Seeing the left hand 'get serious' last night felt important ~ and it will stay that way until its importance is fully revealed. Thank you.

[ivory]

Enigma: "Lemme ask an open question here; In all this Michael nonsense, has anybody noticed, realized or gained more clarity about anything that came out of the utterly failed discussions with Michael? If so, then you know why these discussions happened, and why they continue to happen with others. It's not about the cigarette man, it's about the rest of the Zen students in the room. I know that's not the answer to the koan, but I don't care about the koan. I care about the people in the room."

I don't know if this is what you were looking for, but it got me to start noticing and questioning my own attachment to ideas and views. I found myself judging Michael for that very thing and I thought, "wait a minute..."

I've developed a bit of a spiritual ego and I may come off as abrasive on here as a result. I've learned from all of you and am grateful for this forum. My apologies if I've been a jerk to any of you.

[enigma]

Gee, I don't remember any jerkiness, but it might be because I'm the winner of that pissing contest. Hehe.

[souley]

Apr 18, 2011 1:52:35 GMT -5 @ivory said:

I've developed a bit of a spiritual ego and I may come off as abrasive on here as a result. I've learned from all of you and am grateful for this forum. My apologies if I've been a jerk to any of you.

I might stroke that very ego right here saying that your posts are all very humble and clear. Thanks!

If we get too careful about not saying anything upsetting at all this forum would quickly get uninteresting. Sometimes we accidentally step on some toes and we should be aware of that, but if all posts were designed to not upset anyone no matter their ideas the conversation would be pretty boring.

[zendancer]

Apr 18, 2011 1:41:51 GMT -5 @sharon said:

Most of the formal koans are a bit more challenging, but this should provide a general flavor of how they work.

I've know you've been saying it, though I has to put it in me own words ~ Basically, they are a direct engagement with body and not mind yeah?

Seeing the left hand 'get serious' last night felt important ~ and it will stay that way until its importance is fully revealed. Thank you.

Yes, that's an excellent way of putting it--"a direct engagement with body." Koans are a teaching tool, a learning tool, a testing tool, and a kind of existential game.

A Zen teacher might point to a pencil and ask a student, "What's that?" If the student has some basic understanding, she might answer, "That's a pencil." The ZM might then respond, "You're attached to form." The student might reply, "Don't be attached to my words." The ZM might then laugh and say, "Very good! Is that all?" The student might then pick up the pencil and simulate writing something. In this exchange they're playfully testing each other's understanding.

I was once doing some rock climbing with a ZM. While resting on a ledge, he suddenly snapped his fingers in front of my face and asked, "What is this?" I instantly reached out and snapped my fingers in front of his face." He smiled, and we continued climbing in silence. He was just checking me out. There was no time for thinking. The response had to come instantaneously.

ZM: Why do you have two eyes?
Student: The wall is white; the floor is gray.

ZM: Who are you?
Student: Speak! Speak! (whatever I am is what is asking the question using your body, so speak and your question will be answered)
ZM: You have taken my words away. ( a more clever answer might be "I don't know what to say," but either way the ZM has spoken)
Student: Thank you for answering the question. (thank you for answering your own question that I deflected back to you while simultaneously showing that I understood who I am)
(they both laugh)

This sort of thing is called "dharma combat" wherein two people playfully test each other's understanding.

[enigma]

Okay, lets get all Zen like for a moment here. (Like I have any idea what that means) A paraphrased conversation on another forum:

S: In Norwegian, the sound a cow makes is 'Moe' instead of 'Moo'.

L: That's not right. I'm sure in Norway the cows Moo just like they do here.

F: When our family visited Spain, my Aunt commented on some kids playing in the street, saying "Isn't it amazing how well they know Spanish?"

E: It shows the importance we place on words over direct experience, as
though the English words we know are the REAL thing and the Spanish words we
don't know are the symbols for the real words. Like how 'Moo' is what cows
REALLY say and not 'Moe'.

[zendancer]

Maybe a Zen cow says "Mu!"

BTW, "mu" is the chinese word for "no." This is why a Zen cow would say "mu mu mu mu" all the way to the slaughterhouse. Ha ha.

[enigma]

MUUUUuuu. I thought Zen cows got an exemption from the slaughterhouse, or is that strictly a Hindu thingy?

[ivory]

souley and Enigma: There goes that imagination of mine again

[sharon]

I was once doing some rock climbing with a ZM. While resting on a ledge, he suddenly snapped his fingers in front of my face and asked, "What is this?" I instantly reached out and snapped my fingers in front of his face." He smiled, and we continued climbing in silence. He was just checking me out. There was no time for thinking. The response had to come instantaneously.

DNA's chess game with itself.

[zendancer]

Apr 18, 2011 13:38:40 GMT -5 enigma said:

MUUUUuuu. I thought Zen cows got an exemption from the slaughterhouse, or is that strictly a Hindu thingy?

It's definitely a Hindu thingy. In Japan, the country where Zen has most completely permeated the culture, steak is at the top of the best-and-most-expensive-food-to-eat list (I'm sure the cows have a beef with that). Only the monks are vegetarians, and this is typical of most southeast asian countries. Tibetan Buddhist monks, by contrast, have no problems ordering a "meat and three," and the Dalai Lama has said that although he respects the vegetarians, he's also a cow-boy.

[elenaluz]

I have a wonderful story about when some Tibetan monks who live with His Holiness in Daramsala were in Tucson a few years ago, "doing" a Medicine Wheel Mandala, all of their meals were paid for by local restaurateurs, who went to a good deal of trouble to lay in beautiful organic produce and grains to make these wonderful men the most gorgeous vegetarian meals during their stay. It was almost a competition between restaurants as to who could make the "holiest" food of all! Well on their last afternoon here it was discovered that the lunch meal that day hadn't been covered and the woman who started the Arizona Friends of Tibet stepped in and offered to run get them anything their hearts desired for lunch. They huddled together and finally one of the monks stepped forward and asked, very shyly, if it was possible that they could all have McDonald's double cheeseburgers, fries and chocolate shakes! This woman didn't bat an eyelash, but went right out and brought back their order. It was a beautiful day and so they decided to eat outside of the building where they were nearly finished making the mandala. The monks all wear saffron and orange robes, the flags flying outside the building were the same colors (in their honor) and, lo! The wrappings of the burgers and fries were the very same color. Somewhere there exists a wonderful picture of this event, which I would dearly love a copy of. The deal is, with these guys, they just can't KILL an animal. There is no prohibition against eating one that someone else has killed. (They would never have survived in Tibet without meat - duh!)

[therealfake]

Apr 14, 2011 17:49:39 GMT -5 @michaelsees said:

My last post for this forum
I can now see that there is nothing here for me. At first I thought well just maybe a few would open up their eyes and see the falsely in thinking that awakening is so simple and easy. The truth is it's not and it's rare and 99% of so called awaken teachers are not awake at all. They are conceptually awaken which I can do with anyone in 15 mins. I have to laugh it took Niz 3 years and under a truly awaken Guru to wake up and most of the active members here which amounts to less than 20 actually think awakening is a easy task.

My own take is ZD is closer to being awake than the rest.
Enigma a nice guy who wishes he was what he preaches as he's very good with words but that's as far as it goes with him IMO.
Mamza seems sincere to me could be a early bloomer. Teetown the same.
Max needs help with his ego and definitely has self-esteem issues.
Question is very bright and if he can get to not Question he will be very close to awakening.
Karen the Queen of one line posts which I feel is her safety net as not much in any post to really engage in but I see she is now expanding even up to 3 lines good for her.
Charliegee is amazing such a good soul.
Jazz is slowly getting it.
Souley comes and goes like a light bulb with a non regulated current passing through.
SameNothing is to new for me to enter a observation.
Ivory more or less like Mamza both of them have attitude Bruppy seems to have a very good handle on what it takes to awaken.
Dream yes the pissing contest is over. Dream has the highest ratio of posts vs Karma points only 86 posts and 6 karma very high and she deserves it .

I am sure there are some I missed. I wish everyone I mentioned the best and hope someday they will see what I see. When they finally do they will remember me and will see exactly what I have been posting here.

Much love to all even Max
Michael
By the time you see this post I will have left the group.

You know Micheal, the more you understand thought, the more you find it difficult to talk about.

Your manner of not talking about it, imo, made you a genius or a fool.

I'll miss the opportunity to find out which one it was...

This whole idea of neo-advaita that you passionately can't accept, was caused in part by peeps like E and others on this discussion board, that wanted to make you understand it 'intellectually'.

But what you failed to do was to listen to your own objections, to see if there was something wrong with them...

Both sides of the discussion were trying to 'win' the debate, rather than listening to each other.

Your actions to leave this board, imo, indicate your feeling that you have lost the debate, which is not the case. Just as those who feel they may have won the debate, is also not the case.

Usually when we have a discussion, peeps try to sell their teachings or force their ideas.

If you understood the implications of simply being a 'tree blowing in the wind', you would see that there is nothing 'special' about talking about a subject or listening to a subject.

Sometimes there is talking and sometimes there is listening...

...that's all.

Hope you can take this kind of communication with you wherever you travel...

Best wishes...

TRF

[dreamerrach]

In my absence, I see someone took my advice

Getting over a very bad illness-think it was pneumonia, but lacking insurance or the money to throw away on an x-ray for proper diagnosis, dr. said it was a severe bacterial infection. I'm on some awesome pain killers and cough syrup.

Will be getting back to my journey shortly.

[dreamerrach]

Just about everyone I'd send messages with has left.

Oh poo.