park
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Post by park on Dec 7, 2010 6:14:59 GMT -5
Attachment - likes and dislikes/movement of mind - is an obstacle to realization. One should "purify" himself, slowly burn off attachment in "preparation".
Discuss.
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Post by zendancer on Dec 7, 2010 10:45:35 GMT -5
Attachment - likes and dislikes/movement of mind - is an obstacle to realization. One should "purify" himself, slowly burn off attachment in "preparation". Discuss. Park: I'm not crazy about the idea of purification because it often leads to a sort of spiritual attachment that replaces the attachment to likes and dislikes ("look at me; I'm getting rid of my likes and dislikes) (ha ha). It reinforces the idea that there is someone who can do something, and keeps one trapped within the illusion. There is nothing that the "I" can do to prepare for anything, much less escaping the illusion of "I". Instead, why not just look at likes and dislikes as they arise? Or, look at them and question what generates them? The act of looking or questioning can cut through the thought processes involved in identification and help break the connection between what appears to be attachments and what appears to be the attachee.
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park
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Post by park on Dec 8, 2010 8:43:23 GMT -5
ZD: Yes, "observing attachment without trying to change it" is also implied. My point was if actually-factually getting detached is important.
I take it that in practice most people go through an extended process of "waking up", whether the final realization is instant or not.
If severing attachment is not the important process taking place during that time, what is the underlying process, if any?
Basically, for those "awakened" ones (or those knowing there is noone to awaken yadayada), what changed from point zero (you getting interested in spirituality/zen/whatever) and point 1 (knowing yourself, loosing interest in seeking...).
Or is it just a random wait for a bingo, with nothing really important happening from point zero to point one?
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Post by zendancer on Dec 8, 2010 11:59:59 GMT -5
ZD: Yes, "observing attachment without trying to change it" is also implied. My point was if actually-factually getting detached is important. I take it that in practice most people go through an extended process of "waking up", whether the final realization is instant or not. If severing attachment is not the important process taking place during that time, what is the underlying process, if any? Basically, for those "awakened" ones (or those knowing there is noone to awaken yadayada), what changed from point zero (you getting interested in spirituality/zen/whatever) and point 1 (knowing yourself, loosing interest in seeking...). Or is it just a random wait for a bingo, with nothing really important happening from point zero to point one? Park: Many people, like myself, start out on what appears to be an intellectual inquiry in an effort to understand what's going on. We think, "With a little reading and study I can understand the nature of the universe." Ha ha. We are so habituated to searching for answers in the mind that we assume existential questions are like any other kind of questions. After searching exhaustively, however, we realize that we are no closer to the truth. If we are lucky, we read a book or meet someone that we trust who tells us that our thoughts are obscuring the truth, and that the truth is beyond thought. We then shift our attention to "what is"--thoughts that appear and disappear in the mind as well as direct sensory perception. Rather than staying lost in thought, we begin to look at thoughts as impersonal phenomena. Our incessant thinking is thereby replaced by non-conceptual non-judgmenal awareness. As the mind becomes more and more silent, realizations begin to spontaneously occur, and we see through various illusions that had previously been maintained by thought processes. In a sense, we are becoming more and more psychologically unified with reality. As we quit fantasizing and reflecting, we become increasingly present. We are getting out of the head and into the body. As we spend more and more time not knowing, various ideas and attachments drop away on their own. Sooner or later we realize that what we are searching for has to be present here and now because here and now is all there is. This causes attention to focus more and more exclusively and intensely upon "what is," and ultimately we realize that who we are IS "what is." If we want to imagine that there is a process, it is the process of leaving the mind behind, but this process is impersonal and mysterious because there is no separate person doing anything (that is the illusion). It is simply how the universe manifests. If "your" attention is drawn to "what is," it isn't something that "you" are doing. It is something that Source is doing. Ironically, "you" can't relax and wait for a bingo moment because there is no "you" involved in the equation. Whatever is happening, including the projection of all illusions, is what Source is doing. If there is a deep desire to wake up, it is the desire of Source. The best advice I can give is to spend as much time as possible being non-conceptually aware without expecting anything. Become a person of action and "just do it." Shift attention from thoughts to what you can see and hear. Lose yourself in the moment-to-moment activities of life. Stop fantasizing, reflecting, second-guessing yourself, or checking on your "progress." As ZM Seung Sahn might have said, "Only go straight, don't know, discover your True Self, and save all beings from suffering."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2010 12:04:07 GMT -5
park, good questions and framing. i agree with zendancer comment.
point zero for me probably started for me way back in adolescence somewhere 20-30 years ago.
point one is much more recent (last month!)
i'd say that the methods i learned in the last 2 years and the practice utilized in the days leading up to point one were the most helpful and things i wish i had known years before.
specifically, spirtual autolysis. for me this was first described by Jed Mckenna. but the folks at ruthless truth really coached me through it.
but i'm not sure how much vipassana and various investigation also helped between zero and one. btw, i prefer going from 1 to 0. :-)
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park
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Post by park on Dec 8, 2010 12:52:25 GMT -5
specifically, spirtual autolysis. for me this was first described by Jed Mckenna. but the folks at ruthless truth really coached me through it. Spiritual autolysis got rid of your attachments or showed you that you were not them? Less identification or less attachment?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2010 12:58:07 GMT -5
specifically, spirtual autolysis. for me this was first described by Jed Mckenna. but the folks at ruthless truth really coached me through it. Spiritual autolysis got rid of your attachments or showed you that you were not them? Less identification or less attachment? yes. lol spiritual autolysis emphasizes identification but also, defacto, attachment. attachment has become much less of an issue now. hey but it's a work in progress.
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Post by m on Dec 8, 2010 14:44:34 GMT -5
I do appreciate what ZD-Source said. Maxdprophet pointed to the relation between identification and attachment. I found this to be very true in many occurences. One of them was the following: When I teached NLP, I became curious about why students were not having difficulties in learning the same things. Some had a hard time getting it when we were dealing with context matters, other when dealing with beliefs, other when dealing with emotion, others... At a point it became obvious why. When you go through any learning process, you have to meet the new, the different from you, the unknown. And nothing new becomes to the old. So to change, in one way or another, you have to let go the old, the new, the same . Now if you believe you are an european, you cannot come to believe you are a citizen of the world without having to die to the european identification ( that is identification with a context). If you believe you are a christian fundamentalist, you cannot come we evolve from ape without having to die to the christian fundamentalist identification ( that is identification with a belief). If you believe you are a caring person, you cannot learn how to behave in a neutral way with a client without having to die to the caring person identification ( that is identification with emotion). Of course all of these are beliefs in their own ways, but they are not percieved-lived as beliefs but as plain truth! And there is the delay on the path. Of course it is actually much more complex and eventually builded on a false root-assumption that "I am exclusively my body-heart-mind". But the point here is that all kind of attachment (fear of letting go) are pointing to a specific form of identification. Tell me what you want to keep whatever the consideration may be and I'll tell you what you believe you are! Now all my little talk here is of absolutly no use for being enlightened, awaken... but you can have fun with observing what your beliefs are in your daily life. And through it you may even gain some flexibility till you confront your basic fundamental identification. m Spiritual autolysis got rid of your attachments or showed you that you were not them? Less identification or less attachment? yes. lol spiritual autolysis emphasizes identification but also, defacto, attachment. attachment has become much less of an issue now. hey but it's a work in progress.
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